L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[ummester]

3 hours ago, sandpiper said:

Thing is, this IS a silly fantasy book. Did you not notice the dragons, magic and reincarnation?

Yes, I did - but all of these things are somehow subversive compared to the standard tropes. So, let's just say there is a single character who is a prince that was promised, I would not expect it to play out in a standard way - ie they are the only one that can kill the Nights King (Vader/Voldermort) and restore seasonal balance (balance to magic/the force) type of thing.

I lean more towards multiple promised ones who will be destroyers, rather than saviours. I think it is more a retelling of Ragnarok or Revelations than some kind of Sun God figure story.

[hallam]

7 hours ago, Arya Gendry said:

By the old gods and the new...this thread...

Baby swaps, decades-long glamours, forced miscarriage birth defects, children born from barren wombs...and Ashara Dayne?

I can't say what will happen in the books. I'm beginning to think I'll never find out anyway. But the show...

Lyanna was in episode one. Whyyyyyy mention her and Rhaegar time and again if they don't matter? Why so much exposition for two dead people if their story isn't integral to the bigger one?

But Ashara Dayne has never once been mentioned on the show, not even in a whisper. Theoretically, she could still show up, sure, but that would only solidify D&D as the most grievous hacks in the universe.

 

I think it wise to apply Occam's Razor to the argument. "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected." As complicated as the R+L=J may seem, it really isn't. The evidence is plentiful and rather simple. Anything more convoluted runs the risk of going way beyond suspension of disbelief.

I cams razor only works for the natural world.

this is fiction and so intentional confusion is to be expected.

r+l isn't complicated, it is just bad. It does not explain anything useful and it doesn't fit the character of Ned Leanna or rheagar.

[Juan_Snow]

15 minutes ago, hallam said:

r+l isn't complicated, it is just bad. It does not explain anything useful and it doesn't fit the character of Ned Leanna or rheagar.

It fits their characters perfectly.  Ned feels sorrow over a broken promise he made to his dying sister to make her feel better.  Rhaegar was obsessed with a prophecy he thought he had to fulfill.  His wife Elaria couldn't give him the 3rd child he needed in his mind.  Lyanna could give him that child.  Lyanna was simply a 16 year old girl that was swept off her feet by Prince Charming.  She had no love for Robert, that is made pretty clear in the books.  Her Father set that marriage up, not her. 

[hallam]

12 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

It fits their characters perfectly.  Ned feels sorrow over a broken promise he made to his dying sister to make her feel better.  Rhaegar was obsessed with a prophecy he thought he had to fulfill.  His wife Elaria couldn't give him the 3rd child he needed in his mind.  Lyanna could give him that child.  Lyanna was simply a 16 year old girl that was swept off her feet by Prince Charming.  She had no love for Robert, that is made pretty clear in the books.  Her Father set that marriage up, not her. 

And the statue? You really think Ned would consider the actions heroic rather than the betrayal that Westeros society would consider them?

 

[Juan_Snow]

Just now, hallam said:

And the statue? You really think Ned would consider the actions heroic rather than the betrayal that Westeros society would consider them?

 

Are you referring to the statue of Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell?  What does that have to do with anything?

[House Toad]

1 hour ago, Juan_Snow said:

It fits their characters perfectly.  Ned feels sorrow over a broken promise he made to his dying sister to make her feel better.  Rhaegar was obsessed with a prophecy he thought he had to fulfill.  His wife Elaria couldn't give him the 3rd child he needed in his mind.  Lyanna could give him that child.  Lyanna was simply a 16 year old girl that was swept off her feet by Prince Charming.  She had no love for Robert, that is made pretty clear in the books.  Her Father set that marriage up, not her. 

Rhaegar didn't have 3 children? Viserys, Dany, the baby who died alongside Elia, what about Faegon? As for dragons doesn't Viserion count? Or are we spinning her betrayals into the dragons, because we had Drogo, Viserys and Jorah. Wait there is more, because Viserys and Drogo were dead before their birth, a different prophecy, right? Many red herrings, and more prophecy.

[Juan_Snow]

3 minutes ago, House Toad said:

Rhaegar didn't have 3 children? Viserys, Dany, the baby who died alongside Elaria, what about Faegon? As for dragons doesn't Viserion count? Or are we spinning her betrayals into the dragons, because we had Drogo, Viserys and Jorah. Wait there is more, because Viserys and Drogo were dead before their birth, a different prophecy, right?

Rhaegar needed three children of his own.  Viserys was his brother.  He likely had no idea his mother was pregnant with Dany, not that either of them worked in his mind given that they were his siblings.  When he ran off with Lyanna he had Rhaenys and Aegon by Elaria, he impregnated Lyanna with Jon giving him the third head of the Dragon.  

[House Toad]

34 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

Rhaegar needed three children of his own.  Viserys was his brother.  He likely had no idea his mother was pregnant with Dany, not that either of them worked in his mind given that they were his siblings.  When he ran off with Lyanna he had Rhaenys and Aegon, he impregnated Lyanna with Jon giving him the third head of the Dragon.  

thank you for correcting me, but I am confused? Viserys and Dany were bother and sister to Rheager. Dany was conceived after Rheagar died on the Trident, in Dragonstone, later escaping to Braavos with her brother Viserys. Elia was killed by the Mountain with her babies Aegon and Rheanys, who were supposedly laid dead before the iron throne for the realm to witness. Although later we have Aegon alive attempting to claim the throne, because he wasn't recognizable, unlike his sister Rheanys who also was dead, but she was more easily identified from the disfiguration received in death?

There is debate in this topic about if Lyanna gave birth to Jon.

I am confused now completely confused? Rhaella had 3 children, so Elia needs 3 children, making Lyanna have 3 children, because all dragons come in 3s, so Rheager has 3 children, because even step half bastards also count?

[Jon Snow Bengal]

5 minutes ago, House Toad said:

thank you for correcting me, but I am confused? Viserys and Dany were bother and sister to Rheager. Dany was conceived after Rheagar died on the Trident, in Dragonstone, later escaping to Braavos with her brother Viserys. Elia was killed by the Mountain with her babies Aegon and Rheanys, who were supposedly laid dead before the iron throne for the realm to witness. Although later we have Aegon alive attempting to claim the throne, because he wasn't recognizable unlike his sister Rheanys who also was dead but was easily recognized from the disfiguration they received in their deaths?

There is debate in this topic about if Lyanna gave birth to Jon? I didn't think her children were Elia's?

What part are you confused about? Rhaegar & Elia had two children- Aegon & Rheanys. Aegon was a baby and (supposedly) switched before he had his skull smashed in by Gregor Clegane. Babies mostly look the same - especially white skinned fair/bald ones wrapped up in blankets. Rhaenys was older & was easier to recognise because older children just have more distinguished features and she also had her long dark hair. She was killed by Lorch who stabbed her over 50 times because she tried to fight him. 

[Lord Commander Juke]

R+L=J deniers at this point are either trolls or delusional to the point that they'd probably argue against 2+2=4 as well.   After the show confirms it, inevitably the same people will argue that for some reason it will be different in the books.  Never mind that knowing Jon's parentage was why GRRM entrusted them with the show in the first place.  Then when the books confirm it, they'll argue that Martin betrayed himself and caved to fan service or some crap.  You never win with these types of people.  The post breaking down the text from the TOJ was spot on.

 

Fun RLJ Easter egg: A version of Dany's "Fire & Blood" theme plays from the time Jon looks at Olly to the moment he chops them all down.

[House Toad]

20 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

What part are you confused about? Rhaegar & Elia had two children- Aegon & Rheanys. Aegon was a baby and (supposedly) switched before he had his skull smashed in by Gregor Clegane. Babies mostly look the same - especially white skinned fair/bald ones wrapped up in blankets. Rhaenys was older & was easier to recognise because older children just have more distinguished features and she also had her long dark hair. She was killed by Lorch who stabbed her over 50 times because she tried to fight him. 

Server is slow? If dragons come in 3s, Rhaella had 3 children, Rhaegar, Daenerys, Viserys. Elia had two children we are missing the third, she had Rheanys dead, and Aegon. Lyanna supposedly had Jon, we are missing two children.

It's only the dragon's children, because the mom's natural children don't quite count in that litter, because 3 ways, step half albino bastards also make a ghost?

The confusion is obviously apparent? The Targeryen line ended due to not fulfilling the prophecy every dragon needs 3, but we have defeated that by missing 3 natural dragons in the pack, concluding where else?

[ShadowKitteh]

33 minutes ago, Lord Commander Juke said:

R+L=J deniers at this point are either trolls or delusional to the point that they'd probably argue against 2+2=4 as well.   After the show confirms it, inevitably the same people will argue that for some reason it will be different in the books.  Never mind that knowing Jon's parentage was why GRRM entrusted them with the show in the first place.  Then when the books confirm it, they'll argue that Martin betrayed himself and caved to fan service or some crap.  You never win with these types of people.  The post breaking down the text from the TOJ was spot on.

 

Fun RLJ Easter egg: A version of Dany's "Fire & Blood" theme plays from the time Jon looks at Olly to the moment he chops them all down.

Totally agree. It's exhausting. 

Thanks! (that was my post) 

OMG - /runs to rewatch the ep for the eleventybillionth time.

 

[ShadowKitteh]

27 minutes ago, House Toad said:

Server is slow? If dragons come in 3s, Rhaella had 3 children, Rhaegar, Daenerys, Viserys. Elia had two children we are missing the third, she had Rheanys dead, and Aegon. Lyanna supposedly had Jon, we are missing two children.

It's only the dragon's children, because the mom's natural children don't quite count in that litter, because 3 ways, step half albino bastards also make a ghost?

The confusion is obviously apparent? The Targeryen line ended due to not fulfilling the prophecy every dragon needs 3, but we have defeated that by missing 3 natural dragons in the pack, concluding where else?

Rhaegar - the Dragon Prince, had three children: Rhaenys (dead), Aegon (dead), and Jon.

The Prophecy in question was from Rhaegar, holding a baby in Dany's vision in the BOOK HotU. "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." Which could mean a metric shitload of different things. 

[House Toad]

8 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Rhaegar - the Dragon Prince, had three children: Rhaenys (dead), Aegon (dead), and Jon.

The Prophecy in question was from Rhaegar, holding a baby in Dany's vision in the BOOK HotU. "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads." Which could mean a metric shitload of different things. 

I understand all of that. My confusion is that the prophecy is disconcerting. If every dragon needs 3 in the pack, isn't it obvious why they ceased then? Meaning the formula doesn't work as well as it hopes. Yes there are 3, counting on the halves and crosses? But what does it mean for those who never knew their pack? Let's suggest Elia had a 3rd, it would mean Lyanna would have to have a third and so forth, because their kin would always have to come in 3s?

The prophecy was meant for Dany in the warlock temple of the undying.

[dbunting]

9 minutes ago, House Toad said:

I understand all of that. My confusion is that the prophecy is disconcerting. If every dragon needs 3 in the pack, isn't it obvious why they ceased then? Meaning the formula doesn't work as well as it hopes. Yes there are 3, counting on the halves and crosses? But what does it mean for those who never knew their pack? Let's suggest Elia had a 3rd, it would mean Lyanna would have to have a third and so forth, because their kin would always have to come in 3s?

The prophecy was meant for Dany in the warlock temple of the undying.

I think you need to stop posting and read the chapters in the books again. You have so many things mixed up that you will never see your way back to the light again by just posting here.

No where does anything say every dragon needs 3 in a pack whatever that even means. 

Just do yourself a favor and reread it, google it, but stop posting here because we can't clear up all the mixed up details. Or talk to a friend who has read the books, that might help a little.

[Juan_Snow]

19 minutes ago, House Toad said:

I understand all of that. My confusion is that the prophecy is disconcerting. If every dragon needs 3 in the pack, isn't it obvious why they ceased then? Meaning the formula doesn't work as well as it hopes. Yes there are 3, counting on the halves and crosses? But what does it mean for those who never knew their pack? Let's suggest Elia had a 3rd, it would mean Lyanna would have to have a third and so forth, because their kin would always have to come in 3s?

The prophecy was meant for Dany in the warlock temple of the undying.

Every Dragon doesn't need three heads.  RHAEGAR thought he needed three children to fulfill a prophecy.

[House Toad]

4 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

Every Dragon doesn't need three heads.  RHAEGAR thought he needed three children to fulfill a prophecy.

Rhaegar didn't think anything. Dany saw a vision in the temple/tower of the undying, suggesting the formula? Do we have the Targeryen lineages, because wouldn't they also have to be symmetrical?

[The Daily Intelligence]

I haven't read the books but has Jon ever had dragon dreams? All the Targaryaens do, (When Tyrion was unchaining the dragons he says that he had dragon dreams as a kid, which might mean hes a targ). It seams like if the R+L=J theory was true Jon would have had dragon dreams at some point.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

7 minutes ago, House Toad said:

Rhaegar didn't think anything. Dany saw a vision in the temple/tower of the undying, suggesting the formula? Do we have the Targeryen lineages, because wouldn't they also have to be symmetrical?

Why?

He never said ALL dragons must have 3 heads.

 

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 minute ago, The Daily Intelligence said:

I haven't read the books but has Jon ever had dragon dreams? All the Targaryaens do, (When Tyrion was unchaining the dragons he says that he had dragon dreams as a kid, which might mean hes a targ). It seams like if the R+L=J theory was true Jon would have had dragon dreams at some point.

I'm pretty sure he hasn't. Dany has a vision of a blue flower growing in a wall of ice - many people believe this refers to Jon at the wall & blue was Lyannas favourite colour.

What makes you say that all the Targaryans have dragon dreams? Do you mean just standard dreams or warg/green dreams? I didn't think Tyrion was referring to warg or green dreams.

I had a dream about the nights king trying to grab my arm last night, doesn't mean I'm a greenseer

I assume that normal dreams happen in Westeros too.