L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[House Toad]

Just now, Jon Snow Bengal said:

Why?

He never said ALL dragons must have 3 heads.

 

We are straining at gnats here. What do we know of dragons they came in 3s, Vhagar, Meraxes, Balerion. Their Targeryen conquerors Aegon, and his sisters, Visenya, Rhaenys. There are the 3s right there. I am confused as I was from the start. I was a little groggy earlier and I apologise for garbling some of my earlier posts in trying to reach this point of confusion?

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

We are straining at gnats here. What do we know of dragons they came in 3s, Vhagar, Meraxes, Balerion. Their Targeryen conquerors Aegon, and his sisters, Visenya, Rhaenys. There are the 3s right there. I am confused as I was from the start. I was a little groggy earlier and I apologise for garbling some of my earlier posts in trying to reach this point of confusion?

No worries.

I think that prophecy confuses everyone.

The bottom line is that we don't know who the three heads refer to.

Some people say Dany, Jon... False Aegon? Tyron? Cersei & Jaime? Meera? Do you have any suggestions?

No one can be certain & it may even be a false prophecy, who knows! Or even just convoluted over time (like whispers). You are right about 3 being seemingly a common number but maybe just the examples we know of were in threes as we are not privy to the entire history of dragons (or maybe there is information out there that i have not seen yet). Three could be a coincidence, maybe not. Hopefully we will all be enlightened soon.

BTW If you do have your own theories there's no reason why you shouldn't post them here. We all love GoT and its great that everyone has a different point of view.

 

[House Toad]

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

No worries.

I think that prophecy confuses everyone.

The bottom line is that we don't know who the three heads refer to.

Some people say Dany, Jon... False Aegon? Tyron? Cersei & Jaime? Meera? Do you have any suggestions?

No one can be certain & it may even be a false prophecy, who knows! Or even just convoluted over time (like whispers). You are right about 3 being seemingly a common number but maybe just the examples we know of were in threes as we are not privy to the entire history of dragons (or maybe there is information out there that i have not seen yet). Three could be a coincidence, maybe not. Hopefully we will all be enlightened soon.

BTW If you do have your own theories there's no reason why you shouldn't post them here. We all love GoT and its great that everyone has a different point of view.

 

I have no idea my friend, just guesswork. I look for the straightforward answer and explanation in things, this is possibly why this formula has alluded me prior, and it has still got me partially confused? I am currently waiting on Sharp Ends from Joe Abercrombie to be released on paperback. So I can get a deal on some books buy 3, 1 free, before picking up some of the side stories of this universe which I haven't got. These side books might contain some of the other information that I might have missed, specifically in regarding some of these legends?

I have the World of Ice and Fire alongside my ASOIAF collection. When looking at the Targeryens within the World Book, 3 seems to be the magic number everywhere for the Targeryens. However their tree's branching sons and daughters isn't as concise in seeing the lines of their oak's, meaning it is hard establishing the complete symmetry of the 3s when verifying this pattern. Because It is hard reading their tree's, most Targ's come in 3s, but I am unclear if the Targ's who don't haven't ruled, and when Targ's marry each other, the result is slightly confusing.

I think the prophecy was meant for her, in showing some of the history that she was unaware of? Possibly it is drawing upon this topic's stated formula, because so many people have explained it and it has almost been pressed, where we can type it into google getting so many hits. Who knows fully until we see and read it? At the same time, does it also signal a double edge sword, showing the decline through Rhaegar, and in also possibly drawing upon what kind of ending?

3 Heads could have meant Dany's children, her own dragons, when seeing a baby? And it could mean Aegon, a betrayal to come, if he indeed lives? Where instead of joining her, he is usurping the throne she could take with her dragons. Although by rights of succession it is his, unless he is a fake because he had supposedly died? Straightforward enough though?

With the show not airing Aegon, I am curious how Dany responds to where he goes?

 

[Vastet]

People only need to believe it if Jon is to be King. Otherwise it really doesn't matter to anyone but Jon, his family, and us.

[ShadowKitteh]

4 hours ago, House Toad said:

I have no idea my friend, just guesswork. I look for the straightforward answer and explanation in things, this is possibly why this formula has alluded me prior, and it has still got me partially confused? I am currently waiting on Sharp Ends from Joe Abercrombie to be released on paperback. So I can get a deal on some books buy 3, 1 free, before picking up some of the side stories of this universe which I haven't got. These side books might contain some of the other information that I might have missed, specifically in regarding some of these legends?

I have the World of Ice and Fire alongside my ASOIAF collection. When looking at the Targeryens within the World Book, 3 seems to be the magic number everywhere for the Targeryens. However their tree's branching sons and daughters isn't as concise in seeing the lines of their oak's, meaning it is hard establishing the complete symmetry of the 3s when verifying this pattern. Because It is hard reading their tree's, most Targ's come in 3s, but I am unclear if the Targ's who don't haven't ruled, and when Targ's marry each other, the result is slightly confusing.

I think the prophecy was meant for her, in showing some of the history that she was unaware of? Possibly it is drawing upon this topic's stated formula, because so many people have explained it and it has almost been pressed, where we can type it into google getting so many hits. Who knows fully until we see and read it? At the same time, does it also signal a double edge sword, showing the decline through Rhaegar, and in also possibly drawing upon what kind of ending?

3 Heads could have meant Dany's children, her own dragons, when seeing a baby? And it could mean Aegon, a betrayal to come, if he indeed lives? Where instead of joining her, he is usurping the throne she could take with her dragons. Although by rights of succession it is his, unless he is a fake because he had supposedly died? Straightforward enough though?

With the show not airing Aegon, I am curious how Dany responds to where he goes?

 

I think you're taking everything too literally, and trying to make what Dany heard Rhaegar say in the HotU into something it isn't: a one-size-fits-all-Targaryens prophecy.

The Targaryen sigil is a dragon with three heads. That may be what her vision of Rhagar was referring to, letting Dany know there's another one of Rhaegar's children out there somewhere.

- Perhaps it's Dany who figures out who Jon is because of her vision.

- Maybe when Jon and Dany finally meet in person, her vision is the key to unlocking his parentage - or verifying it after Bran tells them what he knows.

- Maybe Bran, Jon, and Dany are the three who finally piece it all together.

But I don't recall anywhere in the books it saying dragons must come in packs of threes. I never took the vision to mean that, only that the sigil has three heads, likely referring to Aegon I and his two sister-wives, and their dragons, who conquered Westeros.

We don't know for sure, because GRRM has only told D&D&B what's up, and all we're doing is speculating.

 

[hallam]

35 minutes ago, Vastet said:

People only need to believe it if Jon is to be King. Otherwise it really doesn't matter to anyone but Jon, his family, and us.

I think the prophecy is going to be the explanation for the behavior of several characters in the backstory. In particular Aerys, Tywin and Jamie besides Rheagar.

When Jamie sat on the Iron Throne after killing Aerys it seemed like it might be an ironic reference to the prophecy which he would probably know.

In the books we are told by several characters that Rheagar was obsessed by the prophecy. But what if it was Aerys and Rheagar was only reacting? Aerys went mad, what if it was the prophecy?

Lots of folk speculate A+J=T and there have also been A+J= J+C theories. People rightly point out that three hidden bastard targs is ridiculous. But not if they are due to the same cause - the prophecy.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

From what I recall, the 3 heads is never mentioned on the show which means it will be left out.

Remember in the books, Maester Aemon also says it on his death bed. Wait for the books for that one.

[House Toad]

11 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I think you're taking everything too literally, and trying to make what Dany heard Rhaegar say in the HotU into something it isn't: a one-size-fits-all-Targaryens prophecy.

The Targaryen sigil is a dragon with three heads. That may be what her vision of Rhagar was referring to, letting Dany know there's another one of Rhaegar's children out there somewhere.

- Perhaps it's Dany who figures out who Jon is because of her vision.

- Maybe when Jon and Dany finally meet in person, her vision is the key to unlocking his parentage - or verifying it after Bran tells them what he knows.

- Maybe Bran, Jon, and Dany are the three who finally piece it all together.

But I don't recall anywhere in the books it saying dragons must come in packs of threes. I never took the vision to mean that, only that the sigil has three heads, likely referring to Aegon I and his two sister-wives, and their dragons, who conquered Westeros.

We don't know for sure, because GRRM has only told D&D&B what's up, and all we're doing is speculating.

 

I am sorry if you didn't like the straightforward explanation? So instead we conjure formula's and commit to astrology by getting out our crystal balls?

3 heads is because Targeryens specifically Dragons came in 3's. The three headed dragon is the Targeryen symbol. It is in the World Book, as well as the fact most notable Targeryens came in 3's. I am quite sure If the lineages could fully verify this point, because I had difficulty reading those family lines in that World book. It looked confusing because of those Targeryens who intermarried through incest and those who sat on the throne. Although they are missing any dragon relation to them like Vhagar, Meraxes, Balerion, that actual dragon relation to their names. If all of those Targeryens having any dragons would also be symmetrical to that number of 3?

The simple straightforward explanation;

She had no real history about her family, except from the stories passed on down by Viserys, as young children on the run, and the whispers she has received throughout the story through her interactions like from Jorah, he also didn't known very much because of his exile, etc. Later Selmy after the temple of the undying, her vision, helped her by filling in some of the blanks.

She saw a vision that was meant for her in the temple of the undying, concerning prophecies and betrayal. No it was not for Rhaegar despite of him saying what he had, because she is having a vision meant for her. The vision she saw was about 3 heads, specifically regarding dragons, as it also showed a child being born, Rhaegar's child. What does it mean? The simple straightforward answer; Her 3 dragons are the three heads. The baby is Aegon, because Aegon was Rhaegar's only male son at this point in the books. No it is not Jon being born, when wasn't it Aegon? Aegon's betrayal is also happening in the books currently. Aegon is attempting to take the Iron throne by his rightful succession, but in doing so he is undermining her own conquest?

Somehow this is not the answer, because it is too literal? Jon Snow must be this vision of the formula of a superman?

With the show possibly omitting Aegon, is he a fake? Although even if Aegon is a fake, wouldn't it have the same consequence of betrayal, stirring some of those same feelings of prophecy? With Connington having greyscale, where does Aegon's story go?

I am sorry if I haven't replied in stressing any points? If you break my reply down again, using a perspective away from the formula you have ingrained, maybe we can talk? The formula might be there, I am not saying it isn't. I just don't know, but I was looking for the straightforward explanation.

[Sansa's Hairnet]

On 5/12/2016 at 5:52 PM, Tooms said:

I think you've nailed the evidence for the popular theory on R+L=J, nailed it.

I have only a few unanswered questions that throw a few spanners in the works:

- If it's a simple as R+L=J and Lyanna asked Ned to promise her to protect Jon, which he did to his own dishonor, then why does Ned think this is a broken promise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the promise wasn't just to protect Jon, it was to protect him and make sure he is recognized as Rhaegar's heir. Maybe Lyanna even gave Ned something to prove it. But instead of doing as she asked, Ned brought Jon home, claimed him as his own, built her a tomb and stashed the evidence in it, and recognized Robert as king. That would be one hell of a broken promise.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

18 hours ago, The Daily Intelligence said:

I haven't read the books but has Jon ever had dragon dreams? All the Targaryaens do, (When Tyrion was unchaining the dragons he says that he had dragon dreams as a kid, which might mean hes a targ). It seams like if the R+L=J theory was true Jon would have had dragon dreams at some point.

Actually they do have dreams of dragons

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragon_dreams

But i still interpreted Tyrions comment as just a normal dream but i could be wrong of course. Throughout the series it is presented that when someone is having a green dream they know it.

[House Toad]

Somebody doesn't want something read. While the show clearly wants to ingrain us establishing us with something else? We don't need a crystal ball here, because that answer is obvious now, towards there separate identities. Who knows precisely? But! Please can we be respectful to this forum, because that blank was bad form, serving only to derail.

[Sansa's Hairnet]

I don't know why the quote box showed up the way it did, I am so sorry. My tablet has problems with this forum... I've tried to edit or delete, but can't. My apologies

[House Toad]

42 minutes ago, Sansa's Hairnet said:

I don't know why the quote box showed up the way it did, I am so sorry. My tablet has problems with this forum... I've tried to edit or delete, but can't. My apologies

Are you using any script, ad, pop'up blockers? They might be causing some lost of function? I had a similar problem the other day. I was only hmmf croaking because it was right under my post Sansa's Hairnet, I apologize. However with the show vs the books without Aegon, although who knows yet, because do we know if 7 is the magic number? But the point being who knows the full route they are taking, that will become more apparent within the next episodes, but it's easy to assume some of the way that they are leaning, when the suggested formula has even been pressed in supposition along with just about everything else, but suspicion is mainly found in the show's formulation with Varys and Tyrion's placements.

Does it mean they will be the same, upon removing Aegon? That is the million dollar question, but with the latest chapter released, using a dropped character, there is some concern?

Whose to say Jon wasn't just another gangbang, the tower of Joy, surrounded by Kingsguard, sounds a bit seedy. Rights of the first knight, how else do you keep the peasants?

[Sansa's Hairnet]

No worries, House Toad, we're good. I'm not using any scripts, etc that I'm aware of... I'll just be wary using the quote function in the future!

I haven't really been following the conversation about Aegon, to be honest; I just had an idea about the broken promise that Tooms mentioned and wanted to add it to the thread.

[House Toad]

Wasn't the Tower of Joy where they keep all the society girls for those games of whac-a-mole in those quests for the grail. Within it holds Lyanna, Wylla, Ashara, who else, but none of them were particularly virtuous. It kinda sounds like that medieval brothel, the legends Bastards are made out? No wonder the honorable Ned still got teased. Being before Littlefingers time I am sure he was taking notes of where to send Tyrion to investigate its formulas?

[ShadowKitteh]

On May 13, 2016 at 10:16 AM, dbunting said:

I think you need to stop posting and read the chapters in the books again. You have so many things mixed up that you will never see your way back to the light again by just posting here.

No where does anything say every dragon needs 3 in a pack whatever that even means. 

Just do yourself a favor and reread it, google it, but stop posting here because we can't clear up all the mixed up details. Or talk to a friend who has read the books, that might help a little.

[House Toad]

46 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I handle my own arguments like a grown up. Posts which flame and insult other users aren't beneficial to anybody but this nursery support group, and they should be directly mod'ed and acted against accordingly. You hold no rights of posting over anybody else using this community.

3 heads again for your own clarity, because some how you assume a vision made for Dany to foretell her future means something else when spoken in the past as a whisper inside her own head seen as an illusion inside of temple walls? Means that because Rhaegar said it from a dream state, it was a past reality and not a prophecy?

3 heads are the Targeryen house sigil representing a dragon. Dany's only children are now dragons, she is supposedly otherwise barren unable to give human birth. Qarth happened directly after Maz Duur and after she had been warned of betrayal by a shadow priestess of Asshai, before entering the temple. So what was that vision actually showing? It showed her brother's baby, but the only male baby at the time that we knew of was Aegon? Shrouded in other prophecy of betrayal, where currently Aegon has betrayed her? How has he betrayed her? Really slowly just for you. She is surrounded in Meeren by a continent plunged into war and he has rode off with the golden company instead of supporting her. He is trying to claim a throne that is his by rightful succession, pave the way you say, right. Who will the people support in Westeros, if he is on it, possession being 9 tenths of the law, as well as his actual right of succession? A throne she has sought as hers. If he dies being her actual kin or not, what is the consequence and lost.

Why do Targeryens have a house Sigil of a three headed dragon, because it is a magic number for Targeryens. Go and check their lineages to see that frequent occurrence throughout their histories. Dragons also come in 3s otherwise it wouldn't be their Sigil.

Some how it literally must now formulate into something else? Why, who knows and who cares?

[sagewich]

On 5/12/2016 at 0:03 PM, House Toad said:

If the formula is true. I have no qualms outside of the paradox created in telling tale by having a formula in place, where it could mean the undoing of this tale, because the eventuality would have ultimately lead to a different story had otherwise different steps been formulated. I am not an established author so I don't know the complete term used in the above projection, only I am aware that exists. This is fantasy so the rules are possibly only a guideline, not quite as applying to other genres? Example superman is superman the story don't matter much because there is superman.

This leads me to believe, unless he is also a pawn propping up the plot but never its victor there is a consequence for this placement.

You didn't like the knights and maidens? That sneak fondling of innocence lost in fabled tales of victory among close friends where Robert lost his only true love, because she swooned to another persons desire upon their victory. Although they only sought to cage her, leading to a war which ravaged the realm. But whose seed had been placed first? No the honorable Ned couldn't risk another war ravaging the realm and also locked away that secret, because Robert had been betrothed to Cersei within that time?

I never answered you fully I understand that? However will they live for any endings, because in completing a circle wouldn't the realm go to somebody without a birthright? 

 

 

It is too far into the series for new characters or schemes to be popping up.  If Martin goes with the R + L = J, he has  already worked in people who have the evidence.  I  am not quite sure what your third paragraph means.  I belong to the school of R and L being in love and possibly marrying. I am not entirely sure Robert's rebellion was completely over Lyana. 

I certainly agree that Ned hid bay Jon's parentage away because of Robert's wrath.

My reading of Martin's statement was that ASoI&F was a restoration of a ruling family. So I believe it must be someone with a birthright

 

[Ice Spider]

I'm a little confused here. I see a lot of talk about lineage, and heirs to the throne. The targs lost that right after Roberts Rebellion, so even if a "Targ" heir was exposed, it does not give them the right to reclaim the Iron throne, not without conquest first.

In regards to the show, and only the show (the books have many options Grmm can explore), R+L=J is all but a given. There is simply not enough time to explore any other options, just for a good "gotcha" moment. Way to many resources have been used setting the backstory up. Sorry Hallam, it is what it is.

With the recent interaction with Tyrion and the dragons, it looks like he will be the third dragon rider. It makes sense, three outcast children from the three most powerful houses in Westeros, past, present, and future, forming an alliance to save humanity. There might not even be an "Iron Throne" at the conclusion of the show, but rather some sort of representative democracy.

 

[hallam]

19 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

From what I recall, the 3 heads is never mentioned on the show which means it will be left out.

Remember in the books, Maester Aemon also says it on his death bed. Wait for the books for that one.

The show has taken this long to give us the backstory GRRM gave us 20 years ago in book one in Ned's fever dream. So I don't think the lack of foreshadowing shows anything.

The books are set out like a murder mystery with Jon's parentage being the secret to be revealed in the last book. Finding out who Jon really is is a large part of the books. The show can't use the same hook because you can't expect people to start watching a show knowing it will be seven years before the big reveal. Come to that, you can't do that in books unless you are GRRM.

So we are getting ToJ only now after D&D cleaned up about a third of GRRM's convoluted sub plots so that we can get on with the main story of Jon vs White Walkers and the zombie army. All the parts of the backstory are inter-related so we should expect to get only one piece at a time. And not just from Bran either, Sam will be digging into the books in Old Town as well. So don't count out anything just because it hasn't been presented yet in the shows. They have a different pacing and the construction is a lot tighter.

14 hours ago, Sansa's Hairnet said:

Maybe the promise wasn't just to protect Jon, it was to protect him and make sure he is recognized as Rhaegar's heir. Maybe Lyanna even gave Ned something to prove it. But instead of doing as she asked, Ned brought Jon home, claimed him as his own, built her a tomb and stashed the evidence in it, and recognized Robert as king. That would be one hell of a broken promise.

Or Lyanna just had Ned promise to keep Jon safe.

2 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

I'm a little confused here. I see a lot of talk about lineage, and heirs to the throne. The targs lost that right after Roberts Rebellion, so even if a "Targ" heir was exposed, it does not give them the right to reclaim the Iron throne, not without conquest first.

In regards to the show, and only the show (the books have many options Grmm can explore), R+L=J is all but a given. There is simply not enough time to explore any other options, just for a good "gotcha" moment. Way to many resources have been used setting the backstory up. Sorry Hallam, it is what it is.

With the recent interaction with Tyrion and the dragons, it looks like he will be the third dragon rider. It makes sense, three outcast children from the three most powerful houses in Westeros, past, present, and future, forming an alliance to save humanity. There might not even be an "Iron Throne" at the conclusion of the show, but rather some sort of representative democracy.

 

Yup. At best Jon's claim is going to be no better than that of Danny. In fact it is worse no matter what because Danny has three dragons to back up her claim.

I don't think the Iron throne is likely to physically survive. In the books we have a huge subplot about the dragonglass and Valyrian steel, the only things that will kill WWs. And there isn't enough Valyerian steel and the dragonglass is only really good for daggers and arrows. Well what do the two have in common? Quite probably, they are both made by dragonfire. Which also happens to be how the Iron Throne was made.