L+R=J ... but where would be the provenance?

[Ice Spider]

25 minutes ago, hallam said:

The show has taken this long to give us the backstory GRRM gave us 20 years ago in book one in Ned's fever dream. So I don't think the lack of foreshadowing shows anything.

The books are set out like a murder mystery with Jon's parentage being the secret to be revealed in the last book. Finding out who Jon really is is a large part of the books. The show can't use the same hook because you can't expect people to start watching a show knowing it will be seven years before the big reveal. Come to that, you can't do that in books unless you are GRRM.

So we are getting ToJ only now after D&D cleaned up about a third of GRRM's convoluted sub plots so that we can get on with the main story of Jon vs White Walkers and the zombie army. All the parts of the backstory are inter-related so we should expect to get only one piece at a time. And not just from Bran either, Sam will be digging into the books in Old Town as well. So don't count out anything just because it hasn't been presented yet in the shows. They have a different pacing and the construction is a lot tighter.

Or Lyanna just had Ned promise to keep Jon safe.

Yup. At best Jon's claim is going to be no better than that of Danny. In fact it is worse no matter what because Danny has three dragons to back up her claim.

I don't think the Iron throne is likely to physically survive. In the books we have a huge subplot about the dragonglass and Valyrian steel, the only things that will kill WWs. And there isn't enough Valyerian steel and the dragonglass is only really good for daggers and arrows. Well what do the two have in common? Quite probably, they are both made by dragonfire. Which also happens to be how the Iron Throne was made.

Well, Jon does that whole deity thing going for him (hey I raised from the dead), as opposed to Dany's immortality to fire.............I don't think either of them ends up on the Throne, as you said, the Throne will be broken. Of the three, the one best suited for the job would be Tyrion.

The parallels of these three characters is setup perfectly, all outcasts, all have killed or participated in the death of a family member (in Jon's case a brother of the NW), all have bounced back from failure.

"And there isn't enough Valyerian steel and the dragonglass is only really good for daggers and arrows. Well what do the two have in common? Quite probably, they are both made by dragonfire. Which also happens to be how the Iron Throne was mad"

Valyerian steel and dragon glass is only needed for the Others, not the wights. Obsidian is a form of volcanic glass and can be mined at Dragonstone., it does not have to come from Dragons. The Others numbers are not that large, they get their strength from the multitude of wights in their command.  I think the dragons themselves can wipe out most of the wights, and I am curious as to the use of wildfire.

[Xcorpyo001]

Wow, 9 pages on the topic of provenance. I think you guys forget this is the show part of the forum. Provenance or prophecy or lineage doesn’t matter anymore. Ellarya is ruling Dorne because bad pussy. If they want to put Jon or Dany or Gilly on the throne, they’ll find a way to do it. Somehow.

[ummester]

IMO, the dragon having 3 heads is derived from the original Targ invasion of Westeros - that dude and his 2 sisters each had a dragon, and they conquered Westeros with fire and blood - hence the dragon has 3 heads. It is also more of an omen of destruction, like the Biblical beast having 7 heads, or winter is coming, or the night is dark and full of terrors, or the stock market is going to crash again (I digress :D) - the dragon having 3 heads may be a translation of the Westeros end times - Ice, Fire and Humans, or something, will implode.

[Xcorpyo001]

I’m not sure, but I believe he thinks that it must be three siblings specifically. So he needs 3 children by Rhaella, or three children of Rhaegar, or three children of the Mad King, or three children of R+L. And he’s latching on that vision of the HotU when Rhaegar holds a child and sais that “there must be one more”.

Rhaegar somehow found out that the WW/Long Night is coming, and he thought that it will come to himself and his siblings(but he had only one at the time), or to his three future children to save the world from destruction, as the prophecy of that old Targ chick predicted. But as almost everyone else in the book so far, he misunderstood parts of the prophecy. It’s not three brothers, it’s three Targs period. And their three dragons, of course.

[House Toad]

13 hours ago, sagewich said:

It is too far into the series for new characters or schemes to be popping up.  If Martin goes with the R + L = J, he has  already worked in people who have the evidence.  I  am not quite sure what your third paragraph means.  I belong to the school of R and L being in love and possibly marrying. I am not entirely sure Robert's rebellion was completely over Lyana. 

I certainly agree that Ned hid bay Jon's parentage away because of Robert's wrath.

My reading of Martin's statement was that ASoI&F was a restoration of a ruling family. So I believe it must be someone with a birthright

 

You haven't commented on my later comments, breaking down some of my other thoughts. I agree it's kind of obvious to see where the show's formulation is. Although questionably is it fully the author's course? Doubtfully because upon breaking down some of my other speculation concerning the placement of any groundwork/guesswork behind this current formula, it has completely disregarded that other dropped character. Later questioning where its actual story leads?

I was only placing a different R into that theorized formula, because it is as funny as the Tower of Joy's whac-a-mole, specifically that quest for the grail (Monty's Python).

The first don't you get what you want? Those you don't, you tease or it's really a care less about. There aren't no friends in Knights and Maidens. There is always a trigger to that chemistry, or they will fleet into an experience where other biology says something else. Hence Littlefinger and Catelin, but that first to hold onto its love or lust afterwards, would have had to have been memorable.

There is always the lover spurned angle, an object of lustful desire never fully conquered, inducing any later rage or those feelings of loss. But! There has got to have been a greater trigger to that chemistry causing Robert to wallow in it losing his edge, because it wouldn't have mattered when biology would bring new experiences.

[Vastet]

People tend to love what they can't have. Roberts love for Lyanna even all these years later is hardly strange. Textbook psychology.

[House Toad]

9 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Your putting way to much thought into this Dragon's must happen in 3's. The Targ house seal is nothing more than a nod to prophecy, not conclusive proof of your theory.  

The one that got away. Dragons specifically came in 3s, when the 3 Targeryens invaded Westeros, giving them their house Sigil. A grounds for their legends, becoming their brand. I haven't put nothing else into my theory, unlike other formulas. I read this straight out of the book. I wasn't making up any algebra to get at an answer. Does it mean I am correct? I don't know and neither will anybody else until the book is released, because this show has possibly dropped a character, possibly formulating them into something else.

44 minutes ago, Vastet said:

People tend to love what they can't have. Roberts love for Lyanna even all these years later is hardly strange. Textbook psychology.

No they don't. People need chemistry and maybe biology. A kiss shared between Littlefinger and Catelin, he claimed it was more, and psychologically it always was more for him, causing to want what he couldn't have. If not it's that girl from school, show us your tits, no, eww you suck. I will just go and play football then, because somebody else will. So what happened with Robert when he didn't win after claiming he would be her victor, but somebody else won and because he didn't, well we know where that went, the cough (House Stark). Something more would have happened spurning Robert's desire.

[Ice Spider]

51 minutes ago, House Toad said:

The one that got away. Dragons specifically came in 3s, when the 3 Targeryens invaded Westeros, giving them their house Sigil. A grounds for their legends, becoming their brand. I haven't put nothing else into my theory, unlike other formulas. I read this straight out of the book. I wasn't making up any algebra to get at an answer. Does it mean I am correct? I don't know and neither will anybody else until the book is released, because this show has possibly dropped a character, possibly formulating them into something else.

No they don't. People need chemistry and maybe biology. A kiss shared between Littlefinger and Catelin, he claimed it was more, and psychologically it always was more for him, causing to want what he couldn't have. If not it's that girl from school, show us your tits, no, eww you suck. I will just go and play football then, because somebody else will. So what happened with Robert when he didn't win after claiming he would be her victor, but somebody else won and because he didn't, well we know where that went, the cough (House Stark). Something more would have happened spurning Robert's desire.

Again, show us in the books where is states that. You have been asked repeatedly, yet have produced nothing but personal hypothesis.

[Consigliere]

Dragons specifically coming in 3's in factually incorrect. Afterall, there were a whole bunch of dragons during the Dance of Dragons. On the Balerion, Vhagar, Meraxes example: Balerion was hatched in Valyria and was one of five dragons that Aenar brought with him to Dragonstone twelve years before the Doom. Of those five dragons, only Balerion survived to Aegon I day. Vhagar and Meraxes were hatched on Dragonstone.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 hour ago, House Toad said:

The one that got away. Dragons specifically came in 3s, when the 3 Targeryens invaded Westeros, giving them their house Sigil. A grounds for their legends, becoming their brand. I haven't put nothing else into my theory, unlike other formulas. I read this straight out of the book. I wasn't making up any algebra to get at an answer. Does it mean I am correct? I don't know and neither will anybody else until the book is released, because this show has possibly dropped a character, possibly formulating them into something else.

No they don't. People need chemistry and maybe biology. A kiss shared between Littlefinger and Catelin, he claimed it was more, and psychologically it always was more for him, causing to want what he couldn't have. If not it's that girl from school, show us your tits, no, eww you suck. I will just go and play football then, because somebody else will. So what happened with Robert when he didn't win after claiming he would be her victor, but somebody else won and because he didn't, well we know where that went, the cough (House Stark). Something more would have happened spurning Robert's desire.

Loads of people agree with you that "the dragon has three heads" means something but specifically what it means cannot be agreed on. Most people think of 3 dragons & 3 riders and we have 3 dragons (that's easy) but who are the riders and do they have to be Targaryen? It's not a unique observation & its been going round and round for years. Please find out the answer & tell us . In any case it has been left out of the TV series so far.

As for Robert, people are basically just big bags of chemicals. Chemicals react to the environment, even imaginary environments and sometimes chemical pathways misfire & we get different interpretations of the world- some genius, some completely & totally whacked. Robert didn't need to kiss or to have sex with her, his perception was that she was his & that was it, noone else could have her. Lyanna didn't seem so keen from what we are told. Rhaegar taking Lyanna who Robert saw as his property was a major blow to his massive ego.  It's like a toy that you own & you're not interested in but as soon as someone else wants to take it then it's all you want. Not true that anything sexual needed to happen to fuel Roberts desire. There's plenty of crazy stalkers, rapists, murderers etc in this world whose victims are blameless. 

[Vastet]

"No they don't."

Yes they most certainly do. You have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you take some psychology courses, as I have.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 12. 5. 2016 at 1:14 AM, Tooms said:

True, the show is largely simplified so it's possible the books and the show will be very different. However, I'm leaning towards R+L=Twins (D & J). There is ample room for that to be legit.

For more on Ashara & Ned, ToJ etc... This video sums it up nicely: 

 

Preston uses timeline and events to fit for his purpose. Nice art tho but in many way he's twisting things, ignoring others. Show and books will be same in this. No doubt in my mind, same as endings for Jon, Dany, Tyrion and others. Some things you can change but others can't for storytelling purposes.

There is no other explanation than RLJ on the show. Unless they trolled us and it's Wylla from season 1, Jon is their son s they offered no other plausible explanation. 

Daeny and Jon twins...that might be very interesting twist to it but there are things pointing against it.  Well George said they were born 8-9 months apart, also show kinda did not bothered with doubting her parentage. But not like obvious hints...something subtle that you can or cannot pick up. We got no reason on the show to doubt anything about her birth unlike books.

 

 

[Ice Spider]

11 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Preston uses timeline and events to fit for his purpose. Nice art tho but in many way he's twisting things, ignoring others. Show and books will be same in this. No doubt in my mind, same as endings for Jon, Dany, Tyrion and others. Some things you can change but others can't for storytelling purposes.

There is no other explanation than RLJ on the show. Unless they trolled us and it's Wylla from season 1, Jon is their son s they offered no other plausible explanation. 

Daeny and Jon twins...that might be very interesting twist to it but there are things pointing against it.  Well George said they were born 8-9 months apart, also show kinda did not bothered with doubting her parentage. But not like obvious hints...something subtle that you can or cannot pick up. We got no reason on the show to doubt anything about her birth unlike books.

 

 

I don't think it's possible. How would Daeny make it back to to be "born" at Dragonstone and her mother die giving birth to Dany? Wouldn't Viserys be suspicious of a "sister" suddenly appearing out of thin air? With all the KG being killed at the twin towers, how would she even get smuggled out? And even if she was, why not Jon too then?

 

Too many plot holes on this one.

[MoonWoman]

10 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

Wow, 9 pages on the topic of provenance. I think you guys forget this is the show part of the forum. Provenance or prophecy or lineage doesn’t matter anymore. Ellarya is ruling Dorne because bad pussy. If they want to put Jon or Dany or Gilly on the throne, they’ll find a way to do it. Somehow.

 

This. Either it won't matter because of this, or they won't need provenance for Jon's lineage because I doubt it will play out with him taking the iron throne.

[Xcorpyo001]

1 minute ago, MoonWoman said:

This. Either it won't matter because of this, or they won't need provenance for Jon's lineage because I doubt it will play out with him taking the iron throne.

 

I think Thorne’s  line is a prophetic one, and D&D attempt at some foreshadowing. I think Jon will become the second Coldhands, cursed for eternity to walk the realm of men riding his trusted wightified direfolf, guarding a rebuilt Wall against the WW’s eventual return.

[MoonWoman]

4 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

I think Thorne’s  line is a prophetic one, and D&D attempt at some foreshadowing. I think Jon will become the second Coldhands, cursed for eternity to walk the realm of men riding his trusted wightified direfolf, guarding a rebuilt Wall against the WW’s eventual return.

 

That would certainly be "bittersweet" - what was Thorne's line again?

[Xcorpyo001]

5 minutes ago, MoonWoman said:

That would certainly be "bittersweet" - what was Thorne's line again?

 

Thorne: “I fought. I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, you’ll be fighting their battles forever.”

He didn’t added the ‘for this night and all the nights to come’ from the oath, but it was rather poethic for something coming from ser Alliser Thorne

[Jon Snow Bengal]

15 minutes ago, MoonWoman said:

That would certainly be "bittersweet" - what was Thorne's line again?

There's nothing sweet at all about that! It's not even bitter sweet. Please no.

True that there will always be a battle to be fought. Cold hands is a mystery though. Where the heck is BenJen? Will that mystery ever be answered? Him turning up as a wight would be such a let down.

[MoonWoman]

I suppose so. Him dying heroically would feel like letdown as well. That doesn't fit for me as his character doesn't seem interested in heroics. And then him living and ruling would just mean more sad Jon.

[sandpiper]

19 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

With the recent interaction with Tyrion and the dragons, it looks like he will be the third dragon rider. It makes sense, three outcast children from the three most powerful houses in Westeros, past, present, and future, forming an alliance to save humanity. There might not even be an "Iron Throne" at the conclusion of the show, but rather some sort of representative democracy.

 

You are right, perhaps we are concentrating too much on the Targaryen side of these people's heritage. They do unite other important houses, as was always the purpose for the children of royal marriages.