Daenerys and the Dosh Khaleen - what doesn't seem to make sense?

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, Noveson said:

Summoned?  They are already there.  Honestly you're just propping up these ideas of how you think their culture is supposed to work, and then attacking D&D for apparently making them that way.  While rationally every single nitpick can be easily explained.  Maybe the Khals are deciding because the Dosh Khaleen belong to the Khals still, maybe they aren't outright killing here because some don't think she should be killed(after all like you said the Dothraki value strength very highly), maybe this situation is unprecedented for them and so they are having to decide how to act.  

There's simple answers to every single issue you have

Ok so I din't quite remember the dialogue correctly, because I didn't realize that all the khals are there. I still think that the reason why the show did this is to give Dany the opportunity to seize power in one move. Which, as I said, will probably not be the same for the book. And, this, was really my main point.

But having just re-watched the scene, I want to bring up another point: the show has once again made a difference, this time in terms of the Dothraki culture - in the books, the Dothraki are a much more fragmented people - khalasars fight each other every chance they get, outside of Vaes Dothrak. Each khal does what he pleases, sacks any city he wants and so on. But the show now has decided that there will be a gathering where all the khals decide where they should attack. This is a change. I am not saying it's a bad change, but I think it reinforces my main point above.

But in terms of bad changes, such as continuity errors, there's the location of Vaes Dothrak. Why is it different from season 1? Khalsars move constantly, but Vaes Dothrak does not (at least not in the books). But since the show decided not to give any background on much of this, then when you say things like " Maybe the Khals are deciding because the Dosh Khaleen belong to the Khals still" is pure speculation on your part, because you have no idea. But you accuse me of throwing ideas out there, because you don't like me questioning D&D's creative decisions.

[Noveson]

12 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Ok so I din't quite remember the dialogue correctly, because I didn't realize that all the khals are there. I still think that the reason why the show did this is to give Dany the opportunity to seize power in one move. Which, as I said, will probably not be the same for the book. And, this, was really my main point.

But having just re-watched the scene, I want to bring up another point: the show has once again made a difference, this time in terms of the Dothraki culture - in the books, the Dothraki are a much more fragmented people - khalasars fight each other every chance they get, outside of Vaes Dothrak. Each khal does what he pleases, sacks any city he wants and so on. But the show now has decided that there will be a gathering where all the khals decide where they should attack. This is a change. I am not saying it's a bad change, but I think it reinforces my main point above.

But in terms of bad changes, such as continuity errors, there's the location of Vaes Dothrak. Why is it different from season 1? Khalsars move constantly, but Vaes Dothrak does not (at least not in the books). But since the show decided not to give any background on much of this, then when you say things like " Maybe the Khals are deciding because the Dosh Khaleen belong to the Khals still" is pure speculation on your part, because you have no idea. But you accuse me of throwing ideas out there, because you don't like me questioning D&D's creative decisions.

...Once again have you read the next book already or something?  Because you're just making sweeping generalizations about things that haven't happened, and things that we have no idea how George feels about.  Yeah it's speculation, and so is the fact that you think the Khals won't gather in the book.  Because it seems pretty clear to me that the idea behind all of this is she gathers an army is one swoop, both in the books and the show.  But hey I could be wrong, but you could be easily as well.  YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY ARE CREATIVE DECISIONS.  It's very plausible khals are gathered in the book, maybe not all of them, but is that really a big change?

As for Vaes Dothrak...once again are you just assuming its in a new place now?  Or are you getting upset because they updated the visuals with their increase in budget, making it look more cinematic. 

You're just trying so hard to find things to not like, based on some idea that you know exactly what R.R. Martin intends.  Sure D&D have made plently of mistakes, but lets not act like George hasn't either, and also I believe it was him that called these books unfilmable.

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, Noveson said:

...Once again have you read the next book already or something?  Because you're just making sweeping generalizations about things that haven't happened, and things that we have no idea how George feels about.  Yeah it's speculation, and so is the fact that you think the Khals won't gather in the book.  Because it seems pretty clear to me that the idea behind all of this is she gathers an army is one swoop, both in the books and the show.  But hey I could be wrong, but you could be easily as well.  YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THEY ARE CREATIVE DECISIONS.  It's very plausible khals are gathered in the book, maybe not all of them, but is that really a big change?

It's a prediction. Like I said, in the book, I predict that it will take longer for Dany to achieve this. I will not let show influence me on this.

3 minutes ago, Noveson said:

As for Vaes Dothrak...once again are you just assuming its in a new place now?  Or are you getting upset because they updated the visuals with their increase in budget, making it look more cinematic. 

Dude, seriously. Here is Vaes Dothrak in season 1. How did it become a desert surrounded by cliffs in the span of a few years?

[Darksky]

You know, it's Martin who threw her into the arms of the Dothraki at the end of ADWD. How do you expect that plot to play out in its early stages? Just have them bow down to her on sight because a dragon? That's idiotic and too easy.

Daenerys is a khal's widow, she should be with the Dosh Khaleen as is the tradition established in the books and show. What part of that is hard to follow? What's with people needlessly trying to convolute the plot?

[Forlong the Fat]

32 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

It's a prediction. Like I said, in the book, I predict that it will take longer for Dany to achieve this. I will not let show influence me on this.

Dude, seriously. Here is Vaes Dothrak in season 1. How did it become a desert surrounded by cliffs in the span of a few years?

The answer is budget.  They have greatly increased the CGI effects to visually depict a number of locales.

[Gwindor]

I seriously don't understand what this fuss is all about.

The Dothraki are a savage culture. When it is said that they value strength above all, it doesn't mean that they do so according to some custom, it just means that among them, who is stronger gets what they want, simply forcing the others when necessary. And this works, not because they choose to legitimize such activity, but simply because their society hasn't yet developed any advanced system of checks and balances, so brutal strength works.

It light of this, if Daenerys were brought to Vaes Dothrak, and some powerful khal had a problem with Dany and wanted to punish her somehow, it would take more than just customs (apparently vague in regard to this specific occasion) to placate him. The arrival of Dany has evidently provoked quite a reaction among the khals, many of who would simply not allow her to go unpunished, custom or not.

The khals are gathering to determine Dany's fate not because custom decrees thus, but of their own volition, outraged with her arrogantly avoiding her place for years. Some surely want her killed, others (even more, probably) - raped and killed. Maybe someone wants her for a slave. As opinions vary greatly, and all the opponents have both means and inclinations to use strength, an agreement must be achieved, or there'll be blood. The matter is further complicated by their location in the sacred place, where blood is not allowed to be spilled. All in all, it's a dangerous situation, and khals understand that, so they'll gather and shout talk.

[Gwindor]

And, by the way, budget or no, but the change in appearance of Vaes Dothrak looked weird. Even the stone stallions seemed to have grown quite a bit. Or do they from time to time specifically sack cities in search of bigger prancing horse statues for their capital's upgrade?

It's just doesn't look right, like it wouldn't look right if they made the Wall smooth and shiny like a giant mirror in the new season, because it looks cool and the budget finally allows it. Or redesigned the Iron Throne, because now they could afford a bigger and spookier version.

[RoamingRonin]

14 hours ago, Anarcho said:

Obviously we don't know whether it's GRRM or D+D who are responsible for this plotline, but the implication that Dany is now to be judged and punished for not going to the Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died seems very odd.

For a start, it's a surprise that the Dothraki have something akin to a legal process at all. They seem to be governed by a mixture of the sheer arbitrary strength and power of the Khals, coupled with custom (not to downplay custom, they clearly take it very seriously - e.g. no spilling blood in Vaes Dothrak). Having a court-style council that will debate innocence or guilt and then hand out a specific punishment is very different from this.

More importantly, however, is the question: why would the Dothraki think to come up with something like this? Think about it. The overwhelming majority of Khaleesis are Dothraki themselves. They've learnt from birth that widowed Khaleesis go to the Dosh Khaleen, and it's all they know. They have no independent means of living outside the Dothraki Sea. Their only family and kinship relationships are with other Dothraki (maybe they have family in other Khalasars, but that's as far as it will get). In other words, their whole anthropological and cultural "context" is with the Dothraki. They go to the Dosh Khaleen because they have no other choice - they'd otherwise be abandoning their entire life, culture and kin for nothing. There'd be no need to enforce the rule because it would be self-enforcing.

Dany, by contrast, is not Dothraki, has no kinship relations within the Dothraki Sea (but some outside it), and does have independent means of pursuing another life. She's a hugely unlikely exception to the rule, which makes their desire to enforce the rule on her even more bizarre.

They aren't mindless robots. They aren't all the same. They came up with this rule because there is a precedent for it. It's improbable to assume that Dany is the first khaleesi in all of Dothraki history to avoid returning to Vaes Dothrak. Perhasps

[Good Guy Garlan]

This whole thing reeks of an artificial obstacle to stall Dany's inevitable comeback...so it most likely comes from GRRM. 

[Florina Laufeyson]

33 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

This whole thing reeks of an artificial obstacle to stall Dany's inevitable comeback...so it most likely comes from GRRM. 

Considering the foreshadowing in the House of the Undying of Dany standing over a bunch of Dosh Khaleen and they are all bowing to her like shes some kind of deity (in the books), i would assume that this is very much a GRRM piece. And that we might even wind up with that scene happening in some fashion in the show. 

[Misnthropia]

It is entirely likely that she revisit Vaes Dothrak in the books as its been set up that way at the end of ADWD.

Its not unheard of at all for a primal tribe based race has some sort of central belief system a group of elders that enforces those beliefs.

Now, Daenarys constantly mentions Khalessi in her string of titles and doing so means she accepts the cultural belief system of her Khal, as such she is expected to follow that. It makes perfect sense, that a current Khal, would enforce a widow to follow cultural practice.

The biggest questiion for me in this entire plot is do they know HOW Drogo died and given their stance on Blood Magic how does Dany survive this without Drogon inevitably swooping down.

[Arquibus]

Much of Dothraki culture is adapted from the Mongols and other pastoral nomadic cultures, and this council is one more example. It's based upon the Kurultai, a gathering of senior tribal and military leaders to elect a new khan and potentially to deal with other issues of importance.

[Xcorpyo001]

What I find a little strange is the fact that they somehow limited the power of the DK from the first season. In the first season, they are almost revered as the spiritual leaders of the dothraki, and Dany needs to eat a raw heart to please them and get their blessing. Now is like everybody is laughing at her for joining the old retirement home for hags and widows.

And my second complaint about the dothraki scenes is to Dany herself. I know for a fact that she understands dothraki traditions and customs from the year she spent at Drogo’s side as his khaleesi. She should know they don’t care about foreign titles. And yet she is parroting them again and again to anyone who will listen. I guess she needs to do something during those scenes, but it gets boring after a while.

[blckp]

dothraki based on mongols , found this on wiki,

Quote

 

Mongolian women had a higher social status than women in many other Asian societies, but were considered unable to herd cattle and possibly not horses. Only one woman, Toregene, became supreme ruler in between maturity of the elected chosen Khan following Genghis Khan's introduction of heredity possibly claimed by the Tatars he was last with, and four Khatuns shared governorship and regional powers with Khubilai Khan.

Many were herdswomen and mothers, but during the Middle Ages, some were women horse-archers and swordswomen, and Hun descendant sawkele impassioned women fighters were accepted but the Yassa while not prohibiting recommends them to commerce probably of their dairy produce or means them to kill rather than fight or as members of the Khuriltai, a Mongol governmental council.

Genghis Khan's daughters were made army combat generals by him, including Altanqalan who made her husband separate from all his female friends respectively divorce all his wives. Some women were Mongol city commanders and khatuns and bekis in war for the rank of command in battle this gave, but khatuns were married to prolong the race.

 

 

 

Quote

A kurultai (Mongolian: Хуралдай, Khuraldai; Turkish: Kurultay)[dn 1] was a political and military council of ancient Mongol chiefs and khans which later borrowed by Turkic peoples. The root of the word is "Kur/Khur" (assemble/discuss) and that helps form "Kurul/Khural" meaning political "meeting" or "assembly" in Mongolian languages. Kurultay, Khuraldai, khuruldai, or khuraldaan means "a gathering", or more literally, "intergatheration". This root is the same in the Mongolian word khurim, which means "feast" and "wedding" and originally referred to large festive gatherings on the steppe, but is used mainly in the sense of wedding in modern times.

 

Quote

Kurultai were imperial and tribal assemblies convened to determine, strategize and analyze military campaigns and assign individuals to leadership positions and titles. One such example is Genghis Khan was declared Khan in the 1206 kurultai. Most of the major military campaigns were first planned out at assemblies such as this and there were minor and less significant kurultais under the Mongol Empire under political subordinate leaders and generals. The kurultai, however, required the presence of the senior members of the tribes participating, who were also in charge militarily. Thus, the deaths of Ögedei and Möngke in 1241 and 1259, respectively, necessitated the withdrawal of Mongol leaders (and troops) from the outskirts of Vienna (in 1241) and from Syria (in 1259), hamstringing military operations against the Austrians and Mamluks that might otherwise have continued

 

[Kiwi]

17 hours ago, messem said:

My Dothraki is a bit rusty. Could they've meant that ironically? Regarding the title list she was giving last episode. Maybe?

I didn't get any ironic vibe from the "mother of dragons" statement. And I suppose it is safe to assume they know for a fact that her dragons are real.

And I agree this might be a GRRM invention, the whole Dosh Khaleen story. But what I would expect from both show and books, is at least a semi-viable explanation why they are not afraid to disrespect her. It would really be enough if they said something along the lines of "doesn't look like your dragon cares much about you or obeys you". Still a risk, but the way they left it, it just looks like dragons are not scary to Dothraki and not even worth a comment - which is an absurd.

Also, interesting points in this discussion about the whole "gathering up to choose a next sacking target". Kind of grabbed my attention, because if they changed Dothraki cutoms just to show such meeting, it might be important for the future of Dany's arc. What if, given the information they get from Dany, they decide to attack Meereen? Is that even possible? What do you guys think?

[House Cambodia]

19 hours ago, Kiwi said:

The key is simple - if it doesn't make sense, it means D&D are behind it. About the Dosh Khaleen, you're right, but the discussion should really start from this point - why would they even, in any way, defy her will, or try to judge her, if in the last episode they were calling her the mother of dragons (so they know about the dragons). But I guess Dothraki don't care about dragons, cause it's not like dragons fry people alive, eat them, or "lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground". Even if they somehow understood that Dany does not straight up control the dragons, it still seems risky to take her with them to Vaes Dothrak, not to mention force her to literally anything, or disrespect her. Risky doesn't even begin to cover it, (show)Dothraki are suicidal.

To be fair, the last time the Dothraki saw dragons they were sitting on Dany's shoulder like slightly more menacing parrots. It may well be that they aren't anticipating the might of Drogon and are due a nasty surprise. As far as they're concerned she's a lone runaway widow with attitude, of no threat to them at all.

[ummester]

5 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Considering the foreshadowing in the House of the Undying of Dany standing over a bunch of Dosh Khaleen and they are all bowing to her like shes some kind of deity (in the books), i would assume that this is very much a GRRM piece. And that we might even wind up with that scene happening in some fashion in the show. 

I think it was Jorah who said, in season 1, to Dany, that the Dothraki follow power.

What's the bet that Drogon arrives and burns Karl Moro and his bloodriders, making them all respect Dany's power and her becoming the first Khalisi to ever have her own horde without a Khal.

That will probably happen this season. She'll head to Westeros in 2017 and destroy it in 2018.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, ummester said:

I think it was Jorah who said, in season 1, to Dany, that the Dothraki follow power.

What's the bet that Drogon arrives and burns Karl Moro and his bloodriders, making them all respect Dany's power and her becoming the first Khalisi to ever have her own horde without a Khal.

That will probably happen this season. She'll head to Westeros in 2017 and destroy it in 2018.

Yup. With Euron maneuvering into place this season, I think she'll take fAegon's place and hit Westeros beginning of S7, seeing off the Lannisters and Tyrells in the South, allowing her to join Jon's northern forces to meet the WWs just in time in S8.

[Pusarium]

Okay, here's my take on Dani's return to the Vaes Dothrak: this is the only logical out for her right now. Mereen is in ruin from the inside, her much more powerful enemies are closing in around them from all sides. In the show, and especially in the books, it seems a hopeless fight for her until... she hops on Drogon to ride away. Shit is still hitting the fan in Mereen. How could they possible get out of this mess?

Now, everything has changed. This meeting of all the Khals is a plot device to get her in front of all the Khals and their bloodriders and win over all the khalasars through a show of power - when Drogon arrives. She will leave Vaes Dothrak with the biggest Dothraki horde the world has ever seen (every Khal and his khalasar are in Vaes Dothrak right now). That must put nearly 100k Dothraki screamers at her back. A cavalry that size and a few dragons on her side is just what one might need to reconquer a world . She will crush the slavers surrounding Mereen, take her army and her advisors and head west.

[House Cambodia]

^ Yup, that's how I see it. Of course, regaining the Slavers Bay cities and promptly leaving them to hit Westeros puts them back to square one, but I don't see D&D being hampered by that!