Arys Oakheart and Barristan Selmy

[Oakhearts head]

So I'll just preface this by admitting to be a big Arys Oakheart fan, and by the look of things maybe one of the few who really enjoyed his POV in Feast. Mostly, I enjoyed seeing the mindset of a guy who genuinely wanted to live up to the past standard of the Kingsguard.

My question is based on a Sansa POV in the first book when Barristan Selmy is dismissed from the Kingsguard by Cersei and Joffrey, and the other five members of the Kingsguard present openly laugh at Barristan.

After all that we learn about Arys, I'm not entirely sure this fit with what we know about him. Arys shows knowledge and respect for legendary Kingsguards of the past (Arthur Dayne, Prince Aemon the Dragon Knight, Lewin Martell) and even attempts to protect the "honor" of schmucks like Boros Blount and Preston Greenfield, who I assume probably wouldn't have done the same for him under similar circumstances.

Wouldn't you think that Arys, who actually takes his job seriously and is consumed with being honorable, would have too much respect to laugh in the face of a guy who is essentially a living legend and who he probably grew up admiring?

Arys doesn't reflect on this in his POV so it is hard to say, and as I said this scene happened in a Sansa chapter.

Have I over thought this? What do you guys think?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I also find it hard to believe that Arys would laugh at Barristan in that scenario. Maybe GRRM didn't intend to make him as decent as he ended up doing?

[Jairion Lannister]

I just don't think he'd really been developed at all as a character at that point. He was presumably there just to flesh out the KG, and then was developed further once he was sent to Dorne.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

3 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I also find it hard to believe that Arys would laugh at Barristan in that scenario. Maybe GRRM didn't intend to make him as decent as he ended up doing?

even nice guys can get caught up in laughter when a crowd of people do it. He probably felt guilty afterwards. I'd compare it to sympathetic yawning.

[YOVMO]

I don't think you are overthinking it at all. That said, there is honor and there is honor. Arys is, as you say, honorable, but he is also a kingsguard in the presence of king and counsel with a particularly, shall we say, volatile king. Not going along with the laughter might be tantamount to treason. 

we have seen many times people going along with a group, especially wrt Joff, just to avoid being conspicuous and catching the negative attention that comes along with that.

 

While Arys is certainly honorable and cares a great deal about his order there are levels. He is certainly head and shoulders above a d-bag like Ser Boros, but he also is no Selmy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He could be laughing because when the King laughs, everybody is expected to laugh with him. Also, people some times have nervous laugh. I happen to be one of those people and it's incredibly awkward. 

Or he was just an asshole.

[Oakhearts head]

Some good answers in this thread. Jairion Lannister is probably right, George probably just hadn't fleshed out Arys Oakheart as a character at that point, so he just sort of faded into the background.

As for an in-universe answer, societal pressures might have played a big part as many have said. Another potential in-universe answer is that this was simply Sansa's POV, which is of course prone to misjudgement as all POVs are. Arys may not have been laughing. Sansa hadn't developed a report with Arys at this point and likely wasn't going to specifically pick him out from an entire courtroom of people.

[Danelle]

On 22/5/2016 at 3:24 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I also find it hard to believe that Arys would laugh at Barristan in that scenario. Maybe GRRM didn't intend to make him as decent as he ended up doing?

This is quite plausible. Then again Arys was young, handsome and vain, just like 99% of the knights. Jaime never thinks ill of him and I suppose that he laughed when Barristan was ridiculed because he wanted to fit in. Arys is young and he is in a difficult situation. If he had disapprooved of what happenned to Barristan, then he would likely be dismissed as well. Had Jaime, Tyrion or Tywin been present, the situation would have been much different. They weren't. It was just the Queen, her son the new King and their lackeys. I don't think that what Arys did was honorable but honestly I cannot blame him. 

On 22/5/2016 at 3:26 AM, Jairion Lannister said:

I just don't think he'd really been developed at all as a character at that point. He was presumably there just to flesh out the KG, and then was developed further once he was sent to Dorne.

Actually I think that it was in COK when we get a glimpse to the man he really was.

Quote

Ser Arys offered his arm and she let him lead her from her chamber. If she must have one of the Kingsguard dogging her steps, Sansa preferred that it be him. Ser Boros was short-tempered, Ser Meryn cold, and Ser Mandon's strange dead eyes made her uneasy, while Ser Preston treated her like a lackwit child. Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. 

I think that this is the first time that Arys is distinguished from the rest of the KG and his displeasure with Joffrey is hinted. 

[apovsic]

On 5/22/2016 at 2:09 AM, Oakhearts head said:

So I'll just preface this by admitting to be a big Arys Oakheart fan, and by the look of things maybe one of the few who really enjoyed his POV in Feast. 

I just want to let you know, that you are not alone in this

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Arys is okay, but he is no Ser Balon Swann, the best KG. Hope he can make a name for himself through the last two books (but he will probably die knowing GRRM). 

[CJ McLannister]

Sansa's an unreliable narrator.  If 4 of the 5 laughed, would she say they all laughed or single out the one who didn't?  Or was Aerys specifically named?

[Aedam Targaryen]

Arys' POV chapter showed us he desires to be honorable. It also showed us that he was bad at it. He WANTED to be honorable, he WANTED to not laugh at Barry, he WANTED to not bang a princess, but he did those things. Just thinking about how you wish you were honorable while you are doing dishonorable things doesn't make you honorable. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On 22/05/2016 at 1:24 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I also find it hard to believe that Arys would laugh at Barristan in that scenario. Maybe GRRM didn't intend to make him as decent as he ended up doing?

Why would he not laugh? Barristan, as great a warrior as he is, clearly showed little respect for his 'brothers'.

"Have no fear, sers, your king is safe … no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white."

He was being offered a decent reward for his 'retirement' and chose to have something of a tantrum. Barristan was hardly acting dignified in that situation, I can understand why the others laughed at the situation as he stripped his armour off while Littlefinger quipped at his expense.

 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why would he not laugh? Barristan, as great a warrior as he is, clearly showed little respect for his 'brothers'.

"Have no fear, sers, your king is safe … no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white."

He was being offered a decent reward for his 'retirement' and choose to have something of a tantrum. Barristan was hardly acting dignified in that situation, I can understand why the others laughed at the situation as he stripped his armour off while Littlefinger quipped at his expense.

 

 

I don't think this can be overstated. Barristan was being completely ridiculous. If anyone ever responded to a notice of termination by stripping off their clothes and threatening their coworkers, it wouldn't matter how respected they were, they're not gonna get respect in that moment. 

[Dolorous22]

He's not honorable. I really enjoyed his character too, but he's knobbing the Princess of Dorne ffs. And he feels guilt over it. So I'm going to suggest that he did laugh, but probably regrets it.  

[Creticus]

2 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I don't think this can be overstated. Barristan was being completely ridiculous. If anyone ever responded to a notice of termination by stripping off their clothes and threatening their coworkers, it wouldn't matter how respected they were, they're not gonna get respect in that moment. 

Being kicked out of the Kingsguard isn't comparable to a notice of termination in modern times. The members of the Kingsguard give up all of the things that matter to Westerosi men for the prestige that comes with the white cloak, meaning that if he loses his status, Barristan has nothing remaining that matters to him.

As for Arys, my guess is that Arys just got swept along because he's kind of like flotsam caught in the currents of stronger personalities.

[Oakhearts head]

11 hours ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

Arys' POV chapter showed us he desires to be honorable. It also showed us that he was bad at it. He WANTED to be honorable, he WANTED to not laugh at Barry, he WANTED to not bang a princess, but he did those things. Just thinking about how you wish you were honorable while you are doing dishonorable things doesn't make you honorable. 

 

6 hours ago, Dolorous22 said:

He's not honorable. I really enjoyed his character too, but he's knobbing the Princess of Dorne ffs. And he feels guilt over it. So I'm going to suggest that he did laugh, but probably regrets it.  

Keep in mind that Arys kept his celibacy vow for a full decade before being sent to Dorne, and it took Arianne Martel six months to seduce him. Six whole months. That is some serious blue balls.

I think Tyrion picked Arys to go to Dorne with Myrcella for good reason. He was the only trustworthy, honorable Kingsguard at the time (aside from an imprisoned Jaime). In the end, he did keep his vow in protecting Myrcella.

11 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Arys is okay, but he is no Ser Balon Swann, the best KG. Hope he can make a name for himself through the last two books (but he will probably die knowing GRRM). 

I like Balon Swann a lot, but agreeing to murder a child and place the blame on an innocent is pretty irredeemable even if it was a command from the Queen. 

 

[Oakhearts head]

16 hours ago, Danelle said:

Jaime never thinks ill of him. 

Surprisingly, Jaime doesn't really speak either way of Arys, only in passing during the meeting of all the Kingsguard after the Purple Wedding.

I really would have liked to have read Jaime's opinion of Arys though. They served together for about ten years and were both the youngest of the Kingsguard during their tenure. One was idealistic and genuinely trying to live up to the standard of the White Cloak, while the other was jaded and disillusioned with the Kingsguard and knighthood altogether. A Barristan/Jaime/Arys interaction would have been fascinating.

[daccu65]

21 hours ago, Dolorous22 said:

He's not honorable. I really enjoyed his character too, but he's knobbing the Princess of Dorne ffs. And he feels guilt over it. So I'm going to suggest that he did laugh, but probably regrets it.  

I'm wondering if his affair made him reconsider laughing at Selmy.  Up until he started his affair, he was pretty much the shining example of knighthood, and had the status and rewards to show for it.  Yes, he succumbed to temptation and he felt guilt.  You're doing something that you know is wrong, but you keep doing it.  What does that say about you?

Now, maybe Selmy's tirade upon being dismissed from the Kingsguard isn't so silly?  The guy had dedicated his life to the KG, only to be turned out to pasture.  While his response was over the top, was there some justification to it? 

I think Arys had to experience the temptation before he was really ready to judge others. 

 

20 hours ago, Creticus said:

Being kicked out of the Kingsguard isn't comparable to a notice of termination in modern times. The members of the Kingsguard give up all of the things that matter to Westerosi men for the prestige that comes with the white cloak, meaning that if he loses his status, Barristan has nothing remaining that matters to him.

Also, wasn't he the first Kingsguard in history to be dismissed?  I thought that all KG before him pretty much left the post feet-first.  If he was the first in history to be dismissed, I think it's understandable that he took it as an insult.  

[daccu65]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 6:47 PM, Oakhearts head said:

I like Balon Swann a lot, but agreeing to murder a child and place the blame on an innocent is pretty irredeemable even if it was a command from the Queen. 

But were Cersei's orders to Balon the same as the plan that the Prince Doran learned? 

While I don't doubt that Cersei was willing to have Trystane murdered, would she have said so to Swann?

What if Cersei told Swann that he had to return via the Kingswood, because she had learned that Tyrion had taken shelter there, and was plotting to kill Tommen.  The only thing that was sure to bring him out would be a chance to kill Myrcella.  She could tell him that she was willing to risk her own daughter, as bait for Tyrion, in order to protect her other son, drawing out the imp before his plans for Tommen could be complete. 

Or, she might have told Balon that she had learned that Prince Doran had arranged for Myrcella's ship to be attacked by pirates as it passed through the Stepstones, and she would be killed during the attack.  

There's a real chance Cersei lied to Balon in order to make sure he'd pass through the Kingswood.