Bad writing or fake arya?{spoilers}

[Rory Snow]

Perhaps someone can clear this up for me, but the problem I see with the "waif is actually Arya" or "Arya is actually Jaqen" theories, is that I thought the person whose face is being used had to be dead first. The scene (from ep.6) where Jaqen is removing a dead mans face certainly implies this. So how then could Arya become the waif, or Jaqen become Arya, if both Arya and the waif still live?

[Sigrid]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:38 AM, Dizzy Walker said:

I saw this too. The way her hair was, her facial expressions- not like Arya, the way she walked with her hands behind her back -not like Arya, Walking in a relaxed strolling way,  standing on a bridge way out in the open, but with no people to be witnesses, not the way a person who would have a magical assassin group after you would walk. Arya is smarter than this.

The way she threw money around,  it was a way of getting attention and get tongues waggling. Arya would have been smarter, and would have kept her head down, trying to be quiet and hush hush and secretive about her plans with the captain of the ship. 

Where did she get the money? If she had gone back to the House of Black and White she could would have a way of getting that money but Arya did not go back that we know of. No way she would sell Needle. Before the House of Black and White she was hunting pigeons for food and money and she never thought to sell it. If by some chance this was Arya and she did sell Needle, it would be horrible writing not see her make that choice and sell it. That sword was too important to her.

The way she calmly turned to the old woman with a (Not Arya) half smile on her face. Arya would be suspicious of everyone, cause everyone could be no one. And No one was going to kill her.  After she was stabbed, the way she deliberately walked through a busy market, not asking for help, just being very visible. 

 So unless she had a complete change of personality when she took Needle and gave up the house, it wasn't her.

Nice thing is, the person that it was, did set up Arya for a nice ride home. Which the Faceless men have offered in the past ( was that only in the books?). And I believe, Arya would have taken the hammock and not demanded a cabin. She has been used to roughing it while on the run with the Hound.

I have never been stabbed once let alone, multiple times with twisting motions in the stomach, so I have no real idea in this, but I do not see how someone could survive that many stab wounds, swim losing blood, get out of the water, bleeding and walk down the street losing more blood without, you know, passing out and dying? Notice once again being very visible. Why go to a busy place like that when you are badly wounded, and not ask for help?

I'm holding on to this theory, b/c I'm really hoping it's the case.  I really enjoyed Arya's story in the books and have been very disappointed with the adaptation so far.  

[Sigrid]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:47 AM, Iona said:

Naah, something definitely not right with this scene. The only problem I have with this "someone else was posing as Arya" theory is that I don't think the FM ever got her face. We saw Jaqen skinning a guys face off earlier and making threats, so I'm assuming the FM can only use a face that's been "donated" to them.

I had thought this too, regarding where they get the faces from, but then I read elsewhere that they could use glamours as well.  So maybe that could be what's at play, just like when Arya saw her face before her blinding.

[The Greenseer]

On June 6, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

unless D&D will give a miracle to arya in order to kill the waif, I can't see arya win, we are speaking about the waif here, she's a prodigy, the superpower of the FM, I love the waif but she must die

Why love the waif? She is a nasty brat

[Sigrid]

On 6/6/2016 at 5:50 PM, Thel said:

It's plausible that the reason the clothes/hair looks the same is bc its a common look for Braavos and that's the reason a) Arya adapted it and b  ) the street extra is rocking the same style. I'm gonna guess that any echo / disjunction caused by that shot is just coincidental / bonus.

exactly.  The person walking past her is too tall, and has much more hair then Arya.  She never could pull off that much fullness in her braavos buns.  In the past few episodes almost every braavosi woman has been sporting that look.

[The Lash]

I have not seen the episode yet to be fair.  But one quick thought occurred to me.  To truly become no one, would you not in effect have to die?  Not physically but all the people in the world you ever knew would have to believe you are dead.  For all time.  Which is why the FM do not kill people that know their names (book stuff, I know).  To whoever called The Waif the prodigy (excuse my laziness please), I do not see it that way, The Waif is simply more vastly experienced.  Maybe they are acting in concert.  The FM are sneaky sneaky.

 

Also, from what I have been reading I think the FM would frown rather harshly on The Waif's two key mistakes.  She KNEW Arya and apparently took pleasure in the prospect of killing her.  All the worse if she made her suffer.  The FM are not exactly a philanthropic society but they have their rules for good reason.  The Waif being much more experienced should KNOW better.  I think she stepped severely out of the learning curve, more so than Arya being less experienced and her broken contract.  Her first debt of killing 'Ser' Meryn ( as Stannis the Mannis would say, He is a knight) has been paid in full by the mysterious somebody with a billion faces.

[Illiterati]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:59 AM, Viper Hound said:

To those of you saying "bad writing", how can you say that without seeing the resolution of the situation? Maybe it does end up being a dumb plot, but can we at least see the end before criticizing it?

For many here, it will be a dumb plot regardless what's happened.  It has been decided in advance that everything that happens in show version is bad.

[ummester]

2 hours ago, Chocs said:

They can't simply change the endgame of characters because they're too predictable especially after all the discussions about them. I mean, I understand it's D&D but I honestly don't think they're that nuts. However, they might play around with important details of the things that affect the endgame. George has said he knows the broad strokes and D&D are in on it. 

Yes but we don't know what those discussions and end games entail, do we? Arya may always have been slated for some kind of death at this point in the story, just D&D were clumsy with explaining it.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

On June 6, 2016 at 7:13 AM, ToTheWolves said:

So the whole arya scene from beginning to end through me off. It had just felt a little odd to me. At first I thought it was a dream but then came to find out it was not, but am I the only one who thought arya was acting a little different? 

-she was completely dressed different from the last time we seen her

-would she really be dumb enough to just strut around braavos in broad day light like that? After doing what she had just done?

- and where was needle? Did she sell it off screen for the coins she had?

 

i feel like there's a Scene missing from all of this or something but am I looking into this too much???

 

I doubt she sold the sword, though it would make sense that she wouldn't carry it in public.  When she first arrived in Bravos, she nearly had to fight off a bunch of guys who tried to steal it.

There was definitely something off about her in that scene.

[ummester]

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I can't agree with that. First, the purpose of a story is not to feel unpredictable, it's to tell a good story that makes sense and resonates with the audience.  Not being predictable is a bonus but not at the expense of randomly cutting up the narrative to be shocking....which is a trap the show has already fallen into.  And the author has fallen into a double trap there, he kills people to be shocking, but then, can't stick to it, so brings them back more and more often, LOL.

Arya is a major character.  She has not interacted with any other major character in a long, long time.  Readers and show watchers are heavily invested in her.  If she were to die in Essos, her entire story is pointless, she's like Quentyn Martell on steriods.  Everything that has happened to her will have been a waste of time.  That's not good storytelling telling IMO.

It would be akin to Dany catching the plague and dying before she gets to Westeros.  Or Cersei falling down some stairs and dying on her way to dinner.

The audience needs a payoff on the main characters, especially when they die.

Kind of - the worst thing that any form of entertainment can do is become boring. Becoming silly, as bad as it is, is even better than becoming boring. Boredom is not entertaining, silliness can be. And, a fictional story is, at the basic level, a form of entertainment.

What any story needs to do is set it's tone - which ASoIaF/GoTs did wonderfully. A gritty medieval drama, with intricate plotting and plausible, creeping, horrific fantasy elements brewing in the background. To not be silly, all it has to do is adhere to that tone throughout the story. The intricate plotting is kind of dropping off - but it did that in the books also. The plausible, creeping, horrific fantasy has been silly in the show already - screeching skeletons and puppy dog eyed dragons.

The more invested someone is in a character, the more effective a pointless death would be in generating an emotional response. Think Ned, or Robb - both of them had entirely pointless deaths. Ned forsake his honour, in the end, and died anyway. Arya has forsaken her pack, by going to Essos. Notice that Summer and Shaggy Dog are dead but Nymeria is still alive? Ever wonder if there is any reason for this?

All of this aside - what is the story of ASoIaF about? It's not about Arya, or Jon, or Dany, or the Targs, or the Starks, or even the Lannisters - it is about all of them and the world in which they exist. The central element, around which the story revolves, for me, is the Iron Throne, not any of the ensemble cast. The only payoff and resolution I am expecting is the destruction of said throne - I do not think the narrative can resolve without this. All of the characters are therefore expendable along the way - and what is most important is that their journey has emotional impact on the viewer/reader - not that they achieve individual goals or so on - they are all little chess pieces, meant to involve us with the larger story until it resolves. With this kind of story, I don't think we should be taking the characters personally at all.

 

[Lady_of_the_black]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:18 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

you telling me that arya is not tough enough to get 3 stabs and live?? she is a stark and starks are solid as a rock

Has anybody in the show been stabbed in the gut and lived? Not resurrected, but actually survived?

[ummester]

2 hours ago, no_one_... said:

My 2 Cents worth:

1. I don't see the Arya twisting the knife in the Waif (or going for gut shots), so I don't see the Arya being the Waif/Old Lady and Waif being Arya. The Waif had motivation to inflict a painful death, not so much the other way around given all the greater damage done to Arya by others.

2. No point of Ayra Fight Club imo. They've made a point of the Waif's motivation being of Class/Status in not approving of "Lady" Stark since she doesn't feel Arya will ever be broken to the point of not existing. One of Arya's "battles" has been finding a place for herself even before this all began.

3. For those who asked, I think the $ came from the old man the Hound killed awhile back that Arya took off him. Irrc, she sunk her clothes w/the $.

4. Given the severity of the apparent wounds, I'd be disappointed if she gets "patched up".

So, that leaves magic via FM or via Actress healing Arya (which I don't buy), or someone else is Arya on the bridge.

A. The actress hired the FM for a job and she made herself a target as payment. Since, that wasn't fulfilled she sets herself up on Arya's behalf. This isn't likely.

B. Or, FM magic where Arya drinks from the pool (or some other device) and lives(yet another rebirth this year instead of dieing theme of the year). Somehow there's a reveal to a greater purpose for revealed to Arya out of this, and more background on FM roll in current world events.

Agree with most of  this. But think it was Arya on the bridge, think all options other than Arya being on the way to death are silly.

And yes, what we will see is some kind of rebirth. I thought it was going to be Arya being reborn in Nymeria but think your option B is equally valid. The faceless man magic could be tied to the Red God and Children magic somehow and, just like Jon, Arya might die and be brought back after seeing 'nothing', this would allow her to truly be no-one, as others in this thread have mentioned.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

12 hours ago, Sansa's Hairnet said:

I don't think it's the same old woman's face either. The nose is completely different. One is straight, the other is hooked. There are other differences too, but the nose is the most obvious.

I hate the Fight Club scenario so much. It is NOT clever as someone upthread said, it is "been there, done that" and lame. I think I'd rather Arya actually got stabbed than have that turn out to be the explanation.

ShadowKitteh's idea of Arya wearing 2 faces -- the old woman and the Waif's -- and the Waif wearing Arya's makes more sense, IMO. The Waif wears Arya's face and strolls around Braavos to try to draw the real Arya out. She doesn't expect Arya to be disguised with another face too, so when the old woman approaches, she looks at her in a friendly way because she thinks it really is an old woman. Arya pulls off the old woman's face and reveals the Waif's to sort of taunt her -- "see, not only did I get you, but I got you using your own trick."

That sounds kinda crazy too, but all of these theories sound pretty crazy.  

Ok, so the Arya wearing the Waif's and old woman's face as the Waif wears Arya's face is absolutely ridiculous, along with the Arya=Waif theory.  They are both way too convoluted for the show, not to mention the books, which in no way hint at these possibilities.  I don't think GRRM would use such a trope as the overused double personality, and the show would definitely not make such an alteration to the source material.  As I've said, we are dealing with deception that's easy for the average show watcher to digest, not some Serbian Jew double bluff that has people ejaculating tinfoil. My guess is that either Arya or Jaqen planned this encounter very carefully to set a trap for the Waif, which will be sprung on Sunday.  Time will tell... But please, until then let's keep the craziness to a minimum.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

3 hours ago, ummester said:

That is so safe and predictable - exactly what is going wrong with the story now, it all feels too safe and predictable. Safe and predictable = boring.

None of us know where the story is going (I've come to the realisation that even GRRM and D&D don't fully, either), which means any possibility is still on the cards. Killing off a major character around now (and a Stark), especially after Jon came back, will make the narrative feel dangerous and unpredictable again. Killing Rickon off is neither here nor there, as he hasn't been in it that much. Why kill Sansa off when she has finally gotten interesting and looks like she is going to turn on Jon to add some meat to the story? THere is still too much to explain about Bran. Which leaves Arya. It's the most effective time in the narrative for her to die. I agree, it probably won't happen but it will be a missed opportunity if it doesn't - the overall story would be better if it did.

Oh, and while I'm here, being shocking and unpredictable just for the sake of being shocking and unpredictable is the exact opposite of how GRRM writes his work, as he has said many times.  The characters and events need to develop naturally and deaths need to have meaning.  Arya's arc is not even close to being resolved, and killing her off just for the fuck of it to show how nobody is safe is fucking retarded; I don't think even D&D would make such an idiotic mistake.  

[ummester]

1 hour ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

Oh, and while I'm here, being shocking and unpredictable just for the sake of being shocking and unpredictable is the exact opposite of how GRRM writes his work, as he has said many times.  The characters and events need to develop naturally and deaths need to have meaning.  Arya's arc is not even close to being resolved, and killing her off just for the fuck of it to show how nobody is safe is fucking retarded; I don't think even D&D would make such an idiotic mistake.  

Ok - explain Arya's arc to me - explain what she needs to resolve it?

Way I see it she has been on a downward spiral since Ned lost his head and she is adding absolutely nothing to the plot in Westeros. She has devolved entirely into a little psychopath that doesn't even have the discipline to follow orders from the institutionalised psychopathy of the Faceless Men. She has gone from chaotic good to chaotic evil, having a brief flirtation with chaotic neutral before she decided to let the Hound suffer.

Explain how Robb's death was the natural completion of an arc and Arya's death now wouldn't be, other than your personal bias towards one character or another which is ultimately irrelevant?

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, TheKingInTheNorth3 said:

Oh, and while I'm here, being shocking and unpredictable just for the sake of being shocking and unpredictable is the exact opposite of how GRRM writes his work, as he has said many times.  The characters and events need to develop naturally and deaths need to have meaning.  Arya's arc is not even close to being resolved, and killing her off just for the fuck of it to show how nobody is safe is fucking retarded; I don't think even D&D would make such an idiotic mistake.  

That's 100% true of GRRM, but 100% untrue of D&D - nb 'sexposition', Dorne disaster and more. That said, with arya being such a central character, I agree that D&D wouldn't truly kill her off unless GRRM intends to. And I don't believe he does at this juncture, so I am quite confident that Arya will be very much alive into the next season.

 

Ummester - I see your point; other than Mel's notoriously unreliable predictions about the future, there seems to be no pressing purpose for Arya. What GRRM has in store for her I just don't know, yet I'm confident he does have longer-term plans. 

[Battle Kitten]

4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Perhaps someone can clear this up for me, but the problem I see with the "waif is actually Arya" or "Arya is actually Jaqen" theories, is that I thought the person whose face is being used had to be dead first. The scene (from ep.6) where Jaqen is removing a dead mans face certainly implies this. So how then could Arya become the waif, or Jaqen become Arya, if both Arya and the waif still live?

Exactly.  The show has established that they collect faces of the dead.  Arya isn't dead, how would they have her face?  I think it was her on the bridge, she got stabbed and either a kindness will be repaid to her or something else will be explained.  The FM clearly have magic abilities. I believe this is somehow her last test.  The Waif fails.

[House Cambodia]

4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Perhaps someone can clear this up for me, but the problem I see with the "waif is actually Arya" or "Arya is actually Jaqen" theories, is that I thought the person whose face is being used had to be dead first. The scene (from ep.6) where Jaqen is removing a dead mans face certainly implies this. So how then could Arya become the waif, or Jaqen become Arya, if both Arya and the waif still live?

Okay, the "Waif = Arya" theory is that the Waif doesn't independently exist. She is a projection of Arya's bipolar imagination; Arya is in conflict with herself. What's happened here is that she has metaphorically 'killed' her old self and fully bought into her No One FM persona/character. She has passed Jaqen's test.

The evidence is that we only ever see the Waif in the presence of Arya and Jaqen. When we see Arya fighting with the Waif we then see an objective POV where Arya is swinging a stick by herself. After she was allegedly stabbed and bleeding to death no one seemed to react as they ought. Hence, there has only been Jaqen and Arya in THOBAW.

[ummester]

37 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Ummester - I see your point; other than Mel's notoriously unreliable predictions about the future, there seems to be no pressing purpose for Arya. What GRRM has in store for her I just don't know, yet I'm confident he does have longer-term plans. 

Well, the only thing we know is his original long term plans re a love triangle. Hopefully he has scrapped that but why would anyone have certainty he has found something better? he may of, or he may not have. he may well have told D&D that she get's killed by the Waif trying to leave Bravos - and so that is what they filmed.

[TheKingInTheNorth3]

I'm really unable to debate with you if you truly think GRRM is unable to grasp the complexity of the world he created and that the story has lost it's way... That is one of the most ludicrous things I've heard in here.  Goodbye.