One-eyed Misbehavin Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Jon is an exceptionally tactical mind. I understand the numbers/horses/archers advantage to the boltons. But 1st no way Jon has the rest in an area the size of a football field which led to his army trapped in the most ridiculous "trap" ever thought of (that was freaking ridiculous) 2) He would have Picked a better spot to plan his defense. He knows the high ground is the place to defend a position. (Ned taught him that and it's common sense.) Although when he woke the dragon Ramsay I didn't want him to stop until he beat him to death with his fists.... Until I saw sansa's revenge which was absolutely genius. I bet Ramsay's hates those "bitches" now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumy Stark Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: Jon is an exceptionally tactical mind. I understand the numbers/horses/archers advantage to the boltons. But 1st no way Jon has the rest in an area the size of a football field which led to his army trapped in the most ridiculous "trap" ever thought of (that was freaking ridiculous) 2) He would have Picked a better spot to plan his defense. He knows the high ground is the place to defend a position. (Ned taught him that and it's common sense.) Although when he Hide contents woke the dragon Ramsay I didn't want him to stop until he beat him to death with his fists.... Until I saw sansa's revenge which was absolutely genius. I bet Ramsay's hates those "bitches" now I think the point was that the battle in no way went like Jon had planned it. As Sansa had warned him, Ramsay got in Jon's head with the Rickon thing (which like, yeah, it's hard for that not to affect you) and was just pure rage going for Ramsay. He didn't ask or order his men to follow, Tormund and Davos took care of that. Was it really dumb on all their parts? Yes. But Jon didn't plan it that way, he just totally lost himself to the mind game that Ramsay executed (ouch) perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 23 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said: I think the point was that the battle in no way went like Jon had planned it. As Sansa had warned him, Ramsay got in Jon's head with the Rickon thing (which like, yeah, it's hard for that not to affect you) and was just pure rage going for Ramsay. He didn't ask or order his men to follow, Tormund and Davos took care of that. Was it really dumb on all their parts? Yes. But Jon didn't plan it that way, he just totally lost himself to the mind game that Ramsay executed (ouch) perfectly. Shades of the Pink Letter I'd say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Rumy Stark said: I think the point was that the battle in no way went like Jon had planned it. As Sansa had warned him, Ramsay got in Jon's head with the Rickon thing (which like, yeah, it's hard for that not to affect you) and was just pure rage going for Ramsay. He didn't ask or order his men to follow, Tormund and Davos took care of that. Was it really dumb on all their parts? Yes. But Jon didn't plan it that way, he just totally lost himself to the mind game that Ramsay executed (ouch) perfectly. I know that. Still wouldn't have had his army in that position. Still woulda dug trenches in the center of the battle field, fought the high ground, Also it's obvious about Sansa still doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said: Shades of the Pink Letter I'd say! You better put a Frey pie in your hole Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 The problem with Jons character on the show is they chose to remove a lot of the parts that made him a thinker and simply concentrated on his moral character and combat prowess. He never uncovered the Karstark treachery, forged an alliance to win back Karstarks, nor gave Stannis the pieces he needs to take Winterfell. It was Davos rather than Jon that came up with the idea of the iron bank siding with Stannis. It was Sam rather than Jon who planned to make Sam a Maester. There was no baby switcheroo to protect Mances son. In the books Jon is a stubborn, forceful, and ultimately successful negotiator and diplomat. In the show Sansa and Davos handle that while Jon sulks. In the books he has a long term plan to get through winter, but again gone in the show this was never shown. But I actually had no problem with Jon walking into Ramsays trap. Ramsay hit Jon in his Achilles heel. Of course it was a touch unrealistic to hit a guy from a couple of hundred meters with one arrow. He wasn't even aiming at a decent trajectory. Anyway, I am virtually certain the northern plot in the next book will be a lot more satisfying than the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 22 hours ago, Makk said: Anyway, I am virtually certain the northern plot in the next book will be a lot more satisfying than the show. If I was not knowing Jon from the books, I would believe he is as dull and short sighted as Mace Tyrell, and as hot headed as Loras. Going to war, sending everyone to death. Last season he was able to have some serious conversation with Mance. Apparently his death has not improved him, finally... was wondering what death changed in him. I'm tired of seeing stupidity after stupidity, after deception. Introducing R+L=J in this mindset is stupid: Sorry gods, but your chosen one is an utter loser. Yes the books will be much more satisfying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Roche Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 On 20/06/2016 at 6:47 PM, One-eyed Misbehavin said: Jon is an exceptionally tactical mind. I understand the numbers/horses/archers advantage to the boltons. But 1st no way Jon has the rest in an area the size of a football field which led to his army trapped in the most ridiculous "trap" ever thought of (that was freaking ridiculous) 2) He would have Picked a better spot to plan his defense. He knows the high ground is the place to defend a position. (Ned taught him that and it's common sense.) Although when he Hide contents woke the dragon Ramsay I didn't want him to stop until he beat him to death with his fists.... Until I saw sansa's revenge which was absolutely genius. I bet Ramsay's hates those "bitches" now When was it ever established on the show he has anything close to approaching an exceptional tactical mind? Succeeding in relatively minor skirmishes north of the wall and being a master tactician are not one in the same. Even if you use the attack on the wall as an example, he was fighting an enemy he knew, whose positions he had established, who were prepared to engage him with a MASSIVE defensive position. Nothing he's done in the show implies he is the next Hannibal, Caesar or Napoleon. If anything he's represented as competent, but too emotionally driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Vernon Roche said: When was it ever established on the show he has anything close to approaching an exceptional tactical mind? Succeeding in relatively minor skirmishes north of the wall and being a master tactician are not one in the same. Even if you use the attack on the wall as an example, he was fighting an enemy he knew, whose positions he had established, who were prepared to engage him with a MASSIVE defensive position. Nothing he's done in the show implies he is the next Hannibal, Caesar or Napoleon. If anything he's represented as competent, but too emotionally driven. Kit Harringron said that Jon is a lousy commander and is inexperienced so chalk it up to another difference between book and show Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 7 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said: Kit Harringron said that Jon is a lousy commander and is inexperienced so chalk it up to another difference between book and show Jon He hasn't really demonstrated himself to be a great commander in the book. He held the Wall but withstanding a siege or leading troops in a skirmish is a little different to leading them in an open battlefield. I can't help but think the show has done this to clearly demonstrate to the viewer he gains experience so that when he meets the real foe on the field it isn't a complete rolling eyes moment that he all of a sudden has an acute understanding of battle tactics despite never being involved in a major open field battle before.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kusanagi Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Jon Snow‘s character got completely butchered. Look at how Book Jon Snow deal with strategy: Quote With the death of Lord Rickard, Harrion Karstark becomes the new Lord of Karhold. With Harrion in Lannister captivity, however, Rickard's uncle Arnolf Karstark, the castellan of Karhold, declares for King Stannis Baratheon. House Karstark is the only major northern house to do so.[26] Secretly, however, Arnolf is in a plot with the Boltons[27] to provoke the Lannisters into executing Harrion and then marry his son Cregan to Rickard's daughter Alys, and then turning against Stannis when his forces reach Winterfell.[28] Alys flees to the Wall seeking Lord Commander Jon Snow's help, and reveals the situation. Arnolf's plot to claim Karhold is foiled when Jon arranges a marriage between Alys and Sigorn, the Magnar of Thenn. Should Harrion die, lordship of Karhold would pass to Alys and the newly-founded House Thenn.[28] Cregan arrives at Castle Black only to find Alys already wed, and he is thrown into an ice cell. He is given the choice to join the Night's Watch and be cleared of all crimes or wait for the return of King Stannis and be executed for treason. Show Jon Snow is Book Jon Snow's moron doppelganger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 This is the Jon snow who in the book decided to march south after reading the pink letter yeah? A stupid decision that got him killed. Jon is someone who considers himself a hero, who is still emotional and a little irrational. Also who knows what effect dying has had on his character. Just because you love Jon Snow doesn't mean he's anything like a tactical genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Cold Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 29 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: This is the Jon snow who in the book decided to march south after reading the pink letter yeah? A stupid decision that got him killed. Jon is someone who considers himself a hero, who is still emotional and a little irrational. Also who knows what effect dying has had on his character. Just because you love Jon Snow doesn't mean he's anything like a tactical genius. He's not a tactical genius but after being warned not to do it in a previous scene then charging forward towards Ramsay in a fit of rage anyway is nonsensical. Remember this is also the guy that's supposed to lead the North against the White Walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel4s-JonSnow Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 7 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said: He's not a tactical genius but after being warned not to do it in a previous scene then charging forward towards Ramsay in a fit of rage anyway is nonsensical. Remember this is also the guy that's supposed to lead the North against the White Walkers. People act irrationally when emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Gareth Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said: He's not a tactical genius but after being warned not to do it in a previous scene then charging forward towards Ramsay in a fit of rage anyway is nonsensical. Remember this is also the guy that's supposed to lead the North against the White Walkers. And as long as he learns from his mistakes in time then it's OK. But ultimately people are taking this shit waaaaaay too seriously. It's an entertainment TV show. It's not meant to be that deep or realistic. If it was then it wouldn't have Dragons and Zombies in it. It wouldn't have a whole continent speaking the same language, including those that live beyond the continental border. It wouldn't have renaissance style casual clothes and courts and medieval style armour etc. The battle was mental and a lot of fun. And it deposed Ramsay. And most of the viewership were in awe of it. Job done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Roche Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said: He's not a tactical genius but after being warned not to do it in a previous scene then charging forward towards Ramsay in a fit of rage anyway is nonsensical. Remember this is also the guy that's supposed to lead the North against the White Walkers. As C4JS said, he's emotional, he acts rashly. Show Jon has only ever been established as a talented hand to hand fighter with some knowledge of battle plans (which are obviously not one in the same), but he routinely acts with his heart so it's entirely in character, regardless of warnings, he knew full well letting the Wildlings through was going to land him in hot water, he still did it. If anything the show is being consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daske Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I think that 'You know nothing Jon Snow' wasn't just a cool line. It was meant to tell us something too. He's not the finished article just yet. You can see it in Jon's face just before the cavalry charge that he knows he got played and that he has let everyone down. He acted like I thought Jon would act in that situation. Bad tactic, big heart, great character. It worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Fox Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Jon's battle plan was solid. He just got played emotionally, which is something that is pretty realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 9 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said: This is the Jon snow who in the book decided to march south after reading the pink letter yeah? A stupid decision that got him killed. Jon is someone who considers himself a hero, who is still emotional and a little irrational. Also who knows what effect dying has had on his character. Just because you love Jon Snow doesn't mean he's anything like a tactical genius. ? In the books, Jon does not consider himself a hero and he only acts irrational when his family is threathened. The truth is that Jon has a tactical mind (he helped make Stannis's battle plans...he had some great idea for the defence of the wall ect.) and that he is quite good at negotiation (Alys's marriage, the wildling "Blood price", the fact he manages to convince the heads of the some mountain clans to "accept" the wildlings south of the wall....the deal he makes with the Iron Bank ect...) and he's good at planning ahead (sending Sam away to train as maester, gathering wildling valuables to trade in Braavos, getting a loan to buy more food ect.) ....even if, and that is something we must admit, - for all of his great planning, he forgets the most essential of all...a thing called "communication". The show did butcher his character, as it did many others. It's a shame because the costumes, the decor and the shots are quite beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I like ASoIaF books because I like the story. The show, I'm not sure it's still the same story. Maybe the same main characters will survive. But what's the purpose if it's not the same story? I like the books because I like Jon, I like Sansa, I like Jaime, I like Mance, I like Doran, I like the Sand Snakes. What have I left? Tormund, Davos, Theon, Sam, Sandor are not too bad ... so far. But Bran, Tyrion, Arya are more or less disappointing. And I miss Val and Manderly, and Rickon now, and plenty of other small characters. If it was not for the books, and the impossible curiosity to know what D&D will do next, I'm not sure I would continue to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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