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What if Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna?


UFT

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does baelish still pit the lions against the wolves and murder jon arryn?

does roose still plot to take over?

 is a war inevitable in order to be rid of aerys?

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If Rhaegar hadn't eloped with Lyanna, Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go to KL and Aerys wouldn't had killed him and his father. There would had been no death sentence for Robert and Ned  and Jon Arryn wouldn't had declared the Rebellion. Rhaegar would had overthrown his father with a bloodless coup d'etat and now Westeros would had been ruled from either Rhaegar I the Kinslayer οr Aegon VI.

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4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

If Rhaegar hadn't eloped with Lyanna, Brandon wouldn't had a reason to go to KL and Aerys wouldn't had killed him and his father. There would had been no death sentence for Robert and Ned  and Jon Arryn wouldn't had declared the Rebellion. Rhaegar would had overthrown his father with a bloodless coup d'etat and now Westeros would had been ruled from either Rhaegar I the Kinslayer οr Aegon VI.

This. Rhaegar wouldn't have looked twice at Lyanna (not that she wasn't attractive or have a personality of such to some) if he wasn't so prophecy-obsessed & Elia had of been able to birth a third child. He chose her because of those, she was the KotLT & also has a special bloodline (it's no coincidence they both have recent Blackwood ancestry imo, not just the Stark & Targ factors). if Rhaegar wasn't prophecy obsessed, he had some makings of at least a half-decent king, but such being such OTL meant he would've ultimately been a poor one even if the Bobellion wasn't kicked off with the Lyannapping.

Still though, I'm not sure Rhaegar would've had Aerys killed, a forced abdication & comfortable confinement may have been possible (or at least sent to the Wall). However he overthrew his father, that would set a dangerous precedent though. Plus someone may have killed Aerys anyway - why you think he would still be called "the Kinslayer"? The STAB power-bloc would likely want to increase their influence tbh as well.

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33 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

It's no coincidence they both have recent Blackwood ancestry imo, not just the Stark & Targ factors

I agree. From the first time I learnt about the Blackwoods I had hunch that they are much more important and powerful.

37 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Still though, I'm not sure Rhaegar would've had Aerys killed, a forced abdication & comfortable confinement may have been possible (or at least sent to the Wall). However he overthrew his father, that would set a dangerous precedent though. Plus someone may have killed Aerys anyway - why you think he would still be called "the Kinslayer"? The STAB power-bloc would likely want to increase their influence tbh as well.

I don't believe that the Wall is an option. As for the Kinslayer I was just poetic. I do believe tho that if Rhaegar had overthrown his father he wouldn't just had possitive titles not everyone would had agreed with what he had done.

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13 hours ago, UFT said:

does baelish still pit the lions against the wolves and murder jon arryn?

does roose still plot to take over?

 is a war inevitable in order to be rid of aerys?

the story is completely different ant nothing in the book happens. BORING!

 

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7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

the story is completely different ant nothing in the book happens. BORING!

 

Yes, we have no story, the Rhaegar haters would have to find something else to hate..

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell said:

There are a lot of people who REALLY love the idea of Rhaegar raping Lyanna. Kinda creepy if you ask me

I've never believed it to be true, Ned's inner monologue suggests nothing of the sort..

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14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I got that as well. 

It really doesn't
Some peple are really on it trying to prove that Rhaegar was a rapist monster, I have no idea why

It's like a bunch Robert Baratheons lmao

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57 minutes ago, Nami said:

It really doesn't
Some peple are really on it trying to prove that Rhaegar was a rapist monster, I have no idea why

It's like a bunch Robert Baratheons lmao

what rhaegar did is rape.

either he forced the girl or not, having sex with a minor while being a grownup is rape in any western country.

 

he is a 24 years old creepy guy, banging a 15 years old girl, for crying out loud. 

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3 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

 

what rhaegar did is rape.

either he forced the girl or not, having sex with a minor while being a grownup is rape in any western country.

 

he is a 24 years old creepy guy, banging a 15 years old girl, for crying out loud. 

In the books and in Westeros it's not rape. 

 

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Just now, The Wolves said:

In the books and in Westeros it's not rape. 

 

yeah? you should ask yourself why she wasnt married to robert yet then

 

proably because she was not of age.

 

calling it rape, even if rhaegar didnt use violence, isnt so far fetched. even in westeros. they dont think the girl has a will of her own. it might be for different reasons than our laws, but its the same.

so its rape.

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Just now, Señor de la Tormenta said:

yeah? you should ask yourself why she wasnt married to robert yet then

 

proably because she was not of age.

 

calling it rape, even if rhaegar didnt use violence, isnt so far fetched. even in westeros. they dont think the girl has a will of her own. it might be for different reasons than our laws, but its the same.

so its rape.

Lyanna probably wasn't married to Robert yet because Robert probably just asked for her hand and Rickard probably wanted to wait till after Brandon got married. 

 

Its rape by your standards not the world of ASOIAF. 

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Just now, The Wolves said:

Lyanna probably wasn't married to Robert yet because Robert probably just asked for her hand and Rickard probably wanted to wait till after Brandon got married. 

 

Its rape by your standards not the world of ASOIAF. 

they dont think the girl has a legit will of her own. then is rape, either by their standars.

 

grosely as it sounds, lyanna is a stark property. and rhaegar forced it. 

 

 

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So, it's after the year of the false spring, Rhaegar has pissed off the high nobility by naming Lyanna QolaB, but she's back in Winterfell. Without a doubt, Brandon then marries Cat, because that's what he was on his way to do when the bad news interrupted him. Robert probably maries Lyanna soon after, and I suspect Elbert Arryn (heir to the Vale) would have married Lysa Tully, based on his presence in Brandon's doomed party. So, we have the Stormlands-North-Riverlands-Vale alliance. If Rhaegar wants another kid, the only sufficiently highborn ladies available to him are Cersei Lannister and possibly Janna Tyrell (if she wasn't already married to Jon Fossoway. Or, of course, he could be going for anyone, because he's the enigmatic Rhaegar.

Aerys and Merryweather probably continue to do a poor job of ruling. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Aerys still burns some noble to death, probably because of an imagined attack on Viserys' life. But the SNRV probably don't sincerely care about whoever gets burned to death, and they probably no longer favor Rhaegar, thinking that their brief infatuation with him was much like the previous infatuation with Aerys during his early reign. I suspect that the most powerful lords of the realm just stop going to King's Landing.

Eddard likely goes to Dorne to try to win Ashara's heart, with his brother and goodbrother's sponsorships. Howland probably goes with him.

Other than that, I can't think of anything I can confidently support as being very likely.

52 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I got that as well. 

So, I don't think Rhaegar was a rapist either, but I don't understand where people get the idea that Ned would have (1) known the truth of the matter or (2) been constantly seething with rage if that were the case. Ned only had one conversation with Lyanna post-Rhaegar, and it was about the future, not the past. Ned also put down a rebellion whose expressed purpose was to bring back a lifestyle of raping and pillaging, but he doesn't seethe about still-living Balon, nor does he suddenly start hating Robert when he hears Cersei accuse him of rape, nor does he take issue with convicted rapists staying in his castle as honored guests from the night's watch.

Again though, to be clear, I agree that he wasn't a rapist, because it's all the evidence agrees that Lyanna was infatuated with him and disliked Robert.

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3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

So, I don't think Rhaegar was a rapist either, but I don't understand where people get the idea that Ned would have (1) known the truth of the matter or (2) been constantly seething with rage if that were the case. Ned only had one conversation with Lyanna post-Rhaegar, and it was about the future, not the past. Ned also put down a rebellion whose expressed purpose was to bring back a lifestyle of raping and pillaging, but he doesn't seethe about still-living Balon, nor does he suddenly start hating Robert when he hears Cersei accuse him of rape, nor does he take issue with convicted rapists staying in his castle as honored guests from the night's watch.

Again though, to be clear, I agree that he wasn't a rapist, because it's all the evidence agrees that Lyanna was infatuated with him and disliked Robert.

I think this is actually an important point that shows how little we know about Rhaegar's character. Like you, I don't think that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. But if he did, would Ned still think about how badly he wanted to kill Rhaegar after Rhaegar had been dead for a decade and a half? Probably not. Ned really only hates characters who he perceives to have escaped justice, like Jaime and Tywin. From Ned's thoughts, we see that Ned is disturbed by the intensity of Robert's hatred for Rhaegar even after all these years. That isn't because Ned loved Lyanna less or because he necessarily thinks that Rhaegar was innocent. Ned has just moved on. In his eyes, Rhaegar is dead, which means justice was served whatever Rhaegar's supposed crimes were. 

As for the question regarding Aerys: Yes. I think war would likely have been necessary to get rid of him. Rhaegar seems to have been taking steps to overthrow Aerys, but he kept getting thwarted. Aerys was rapidly descending into deeply sadistic, paranoid insanity. He thought everyone was out to get him, and in turn took perverse gratification out of doing harm to others. How long would it have taken for him to completely nosedive and attack Casterly Rock, or Sunspear, or Highgarden? If it wasn't the Starks and Baratheons, it probably would have been someone else. 

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4 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

 

what rhaegar did is rape.

either he forced the girl or not, having sex with a minor while being a grownup is rape in any western country.

 

he is a 24 years old creepy guy, banging a 15 years old girl, for crying out loud. 

If you are going to apply our standards of sexual conduct to Westeros, than virtually every man in Westeros is guilty of rape.  Its pointless.

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19 minutes ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

As for the question regarding Aerys: Yes. I think war would likely have been necessary to get rid of him. Rhaegar seems to have been taking steps to overthrow Aerys, but he kept getting thwarted. Aerys was rapidly descending into deeply sadistic, paranoid insanity. He thought everyone was out to get him, and in turn took perverse gratification out of doing harm to others. How long would it have taken for him to completely nosedive and attack Casterly Rock, or Sunspear, or Highgarden? If it wasn't the Starks and Baratheons, it probably would have been someone else. 

So, in a Rhaegar-Aerys war... who would fight for Aerys? Let's say he wants to attack casterly rock to Reynes Tywin - who marches with him? The SNRV alliance has no cause to do so, Dorne is just biding their time for Rhaegar to take over, and the Tyrells have no dog in the race. During the year of the false spring there aren't even any active feuds to use to play the lords against eachother - Oberyn hasn't even maimed Willas yet.

I'm also not convinced by the evidence that Rhaegar was actually conspiring against his dad. Mostly, we just have Aerys paranoia, Varys plotting, and several lords hopes to go off of. But at the tourney of harrenhal he publicly crowns Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, in a move that everyone instantly recognizes as being very very bad. If the whole thing was actually a cover to convince the lords paramount to support his claim, why would he have used it to piss them all off? Clearly by the time of the war he recognized the need for drastic change, but that doesn't mean he was conspiring to overthrow his father.

14 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

If you are going to apply our standards of sexual conduct to Westeros, than virtually every man in Westeros is guilty of rape.  Its pointless.

We're explicitly supposed to view a very large number of Westerosi men as being rapists, especially the soldiers. I have paper copies of the book that are hard to search, but I recall there being a number of passages about how most men who go to war become rapists along the way, and then return home to lead normal lives (usually used to contrast people like the mountain, or "dogs"). The ironborn have a number of conversations about how they should rape more often. Jon snow has some confusion with the Wildlings, trying to discern between those who are actual rapists and those who "steal" their wives and have the women on board with it. This isn't an issue of people reading too much into the story or trying to apply outside standards - the books explicitly reach this condemning conclusion.

But yeah, clearly statutory isn't the kind of rape Robert's accusing Rhaegar of. If someone wants to condemn Rhaegar for that, they'd also have to lay that charge at Edmure's feet for bedding Roslin.

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