Why I was thoroughly disappointed in season 6

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The points raised by the OP are clear evidences D&D know nothing of what will happen between ADWD and the End. They know 2 or 3 things, like "hold the door", they know who dies, but generally not how. And are unable to trace by themselves a consistent route from now to the End. That is why they are shortening the story. I expect the remaining episodes will be made of very little well thought stuff.

Here are some of the suspected spoilers from season 6, so I expect they know  a hell of a lot more than two or three things:

The Children created the White Walkers

Melisandre is centuries old

Stannis is not Azor Ahai.

Jon Snow is resurrected

R+L=J

Hold the Door

Cersei sets fire to King's Landing

Euron is the one who killed Balon 

this was later confirmed in the Aeron released chapter

Benjen is alive

The Hound is alive

The Starks return and are pronounced King/Queen in the North. Whether it's Jon, Rickon, or Sansa remains to be seen

Tyrion becomes Hand of the Queen

Dany wins the Battle of Fire and sets sail shortly after

Bran becomes the Three Eyed Raven

[Ser Quork]

1 minute ago, Dragon in the North said:

Here are some of the suspected spoilers from season 6, so I expect they know  a hell of a lot more than two or three things:

The Children created the White Walkers

Melisandre is centuries old

Stannis is not Azor Ahai.

Jon Snow is resurrected

R+L=J

Hold the Door

Cersei sets fire to King's Landing

Euron is the one who killed Balon 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

this was later confirmed in the Aeron released chapter

 

Benjen is alive

The Hound is alive

The Starks return and are pronounced King/Queen in the North. Whether it's Jon, Rickon, or Sansa remains to be seen

Tyrion becomes Hand of the Queen

Dany wins the Battle of Fire and sets sail shortly after

Bran becomes the Three Eyed Raven

And most of these are apparent from the currently released books and the last three I'm not convinced about.

For instance, if Tyrion does become the Hand of the Queen, I hope he earns it because he sure as hell didn't in the TV show.

I don't believe Bran becomes "the Three Eyed Crow" in the books as it seems that is another name for Bloodraven personally.  However, it is possible he'll become the last greenseer if Bloodraven dies.

Benjen is not alive in the show - it's made very clear that he died but the CotF intervened before the Others' magic made him a wight.

Euron did not kill Balon himself in the books although the hints are all there that a Faceless Man did so, but

Spoiler

it's confirmed in the preview chapter he had him killed, whereas the show had him doing the deed himself. 

I'm surprised people would rather have any old ending.  I certainly wouldn't.  If we don't get the journey and wrap-up written by GRRM, I'll be very disappointed as D&D's ending won't fill that gap because they simply don't have his talent.  They have plot points that they hit, but they don't care how they bend characters or logic to hit those points and it's deeply unsatisfying.

[Dragon in the North]

3 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

And most of these are apparent from the currently released books and the last three I'm not convinced about.

Before the show, a lot of these were theories, which the show has now confirmed. This may not count as a spoiler to you, but it doest to me.

 

4 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I'm surprised people would rather have any old ending.  I certainly wouldn't.  If we don't get the journey and wrap-up written by GRRM, I'll be very disappointed as D&D's ending won't fill that gap because they simply don't have his talent.  They have plot points that they hit, but they don't care how they bend characters or logic to hit those points and it's deeply unsatisfying.

Naturally, I would prefer to get the book ending, but if that never happens, I would rather have the show ending to no ending at all.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

22 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I hate the decline in book quality arguments.  There's a decline in action in AFFC and ADWD, as the build up GoT and CoK made was spent in ASoS, but the story continues.  I'm in the middle of a reread, and I powered through Feast because I had a hard time putting it down, while I lagged forever on ACoK and ASoS.  Sure, I can pick out a couple chapters that arguably should have been edited/combined, but I can do the same with GoT, ACoK, and ASoS.  

As far as the "action" in the books, it's clearly a big buildup that will soon be paid off in TWoW.  If events in TWoW underwhelm, I would consider AFFC and ADWD to be less than I currently do, because it will mean the build up was largely for nothing, but it seems like we are on the verge of game changing events in all storylines.  While I can see how they might be letdowns on an initial read through or if someone is reading at the surface to get the top level story (which I won't condemn.  That's how I did it the first time I read), I personally don't see how anyone can read these (particularly Dance, but also AFFC) and think a large percentage of it is pointless filler.  

Now, since I think the show has largely become the television version of Medieval Action Movie with Bewwbs, I can see how someone who likes what the show has become  might dislike Feast, for a different set of interests.  But given that the show couldn't be Medieval Action Movie (although it had plenty of Bewwwwbs) early on due to budget, I'm a little shocked at how prevalent that demographic is. 

I personally don't see how anyone can read ADWD and AFFC and NOT think a large percentage of it is pointless filler. 

For me personally, the decline in book quality could not be any more noticeable. Like it's night and day. 

[BalerionTheCat]

51 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

Here are some of the suspected spoilers from season 6, so I expect they know  a hell of a lot more than two or three things:

The Children created the White Walkers -> I believe this one, not one second.

Melisandre is centuries old- > Maybe, I don't know and frankly I don't care.

Stannis is not Azor Ahai. -> We know that.

Jon Snow is resurrected -> There was not other possibility. But it will happen differently, and Jon will not be the same.

R+L=J -> We know that.

Hold the Door -> Yes, I said it myself, but this is not big.

Cersei sets fire to King's Landing -> We strongly suspect it. But it will not be just the Sept. At least the Red Keep, if not all KL.

Euron is the one who killed Balon  -> Probably not himself in the books. It was a FM, as in the  Ghost of High Heart's vision.

Benjen is alive -> Benjen is not alive in the Show, he is Coldhands. I believe he is in the books. I even made a thread about where he is, and what he is doing.

The Hound is alive -> There was zero doubt about it.

The Starks return and are pronounced King/Queen in the North. Whether it's Jon, Rickon, or Sansa remains to be seen -> No doubt about that. Rickon, IMO.

Tyrion becomes Hand of the Queen -> Not sure about that. But it's likely.

Dany wins the Battle of Fire and sets sail shortly after -> Never expected she would stay in Meereen. It will be probably Victarion and Moqorro' victory thought . Daenrys will return after with the dothrakis.

Bran becomes the Three Eyed Raven -> Bran will surpass BR. How it will happen, I don't know. But I believe it will be different in the books.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

23 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I hate the decline in book quality arguments.

As for me. On my first read, the last two books were lacking of big events (if you discount things like Jon's death). But now, on rereads, where I remember mostly what will happen, the action is less important than the content and the meaning. And I enjoy more the later books, with more premises of what will happen in the remaining books.

[JonSnow4President]

32 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

I personally don't see how anyone can read ADWD and AFFC and NOT think a large percentage of it is pointless filler. 

For me personally, the decline in book quality could not be any more noticeable. Like it's night and day. 

Going through AFFC, I can think of 2 Brienne chapters that probably should have been combined, a Sam chapter that should have been eliminated, a Cersei that probably should have been folded into another Cersei, and maybe a Jaime that should have been folded.  Every other chapter either advances the plot or significantly advances character development.  Ultimately, we're looking at a very small percentage of Feast.  

I think there is a night and day difference from late ACoK and ASoS in terms of action, but it's similar to AGoT or early ACoK, and very little hits what I would call filler (unless you're writing off some pretty big character moments as filler).

[Stannis H'ghar]

On 7/2/2016 at 9:10 AM, Bainberg said:

Then stick with the show. Name one show or movie that compares to the books? Exactly.

this whining is absurd. Dude we get it...the show sucks, the car in front of you is driving too slow, Your fries are cold, the band could have played 2 more songs, it's too hot, etc. sorry, I deal with children enough at home, hate to have to see it on here too

As far as the op, couldn't disagree more. Love the show and love the books. How about you attempt to be thankful you get to experience the greatest story ever told. It could be worse, you could be stuck in 1910 with Tom Sawyer to read

op

 

 

Right on! 

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

7 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

I'm not entirely sure what you were expecting from this storyline, but the reason I loved it was because it showed that Arya would never give up her Stark roots. No matter how much the Faceless Men beat, abused, or mistreated her, Arya could never stop being a Stark. That was the whole point of her storyline, showing that no matte what hardships Arya goes through, she could never be No One and forget her family.

 

I understand that you belong to Watchers on the Wall, who regularly gives out filming spoilers, including the one about the Knights of the Vale showing up at the battle. All I'm saying is that if you want a storyline to be a surprise, you might want to stay away from a site that spoils the outcome. Most television shows and movies only have a handful of protagonists, and yet, if they're successful, they can still provide the audience with suspense over the fate of their characters. Imo, The Battle of the Bastards did exactly that, with most of the credit going to Miguel Sapochnik. The scenes where Rickon was running to Jon and when Jon was being crushed under all those corpses were incredibly suspenseful to me and had me fearing for both their safety.

I agree with you for the most part. I grew tired of the dick jokes rather quickly, but I did enjoy many scenes, like Tyrion dealing with the masters, Tyrion meeting the dragons, and Tyrion making Hand of the Queen. I enjoyed Meereen's conclusion and was happy that they didn't draw it out, like Martin is doing in the books, and loved the cinematography of the dragons burning the fleet. Meeting with the masters was a simple way for Danerys killing them without destroying too many ships, which she would later need.

Arya never giving up her Stark roots is not enough for me. I never tuned in to watch this show for good feelings. I can go watch a pixar movie or some other typical Hollywood stuff if I want such a straight forward conclusion as the one we got to the House of B & W. I'm not a nihilist either. I just want the complicated story telling that we had for the first 5 seasons where I was always on the edge of my seat because anything could happen. I want grey characters. I'd be fine with Arya becoming Arya Stark again if they arrived at the conclusion in a better manner. They didn't follow up on anything in the House of B & W. What is the code of the Faceless Men? Who is the Waif and why is she so angry at Arya? Who is J'qen Hagar? Are the Faceless Men literally putting on the faces and wearing them, or is there some kind of magic involve? It was such a rushed, straight forward, Hollywood conclusion without any twists and turns. It was a disturbing lack of creativity on D & D's part, there is no other way to spin it.

I don't follow film spoilers. I didn't watch the trailers to season 6, I don't watch the previews for the next episode and I don't even watch "previously on Game of Thrones" before the episode. I barely post on Watchers on the Wall during the week while the season is running. If I do post, I just read the responses to the posts I make and try to avoid reading anything else. So no, reading spoilers wasn't the problem. What did you think was going to happen when Sansa wrote that letter? It was so obvious to me, even before that it was obvious. Even if we're heading in that direction, how about a couple of twists and turns. I wrote my version of what would happen in this thread 

 and while they might not be the best, they took me 5 minutes to come up with so it's hard to believe D & D could not have done better.

 

The cinematography was great in the Mereen scene (as it was in Battle of the Bastards). However, there was no conflict. It's like a video game where you have all the cheat codes to make you invincible. We knew Dany, Tyrion and the gang weren't in any danger at all, so it wasn't really great drama, though it was very cool CGI. 

[BalerionTheCat]

5 hours ago, LatrineDiggerBrian said:

The cinematography was great in the Mereen scene (as it was in Battle of the Bastards). However, there was no conflict. It's like a video game where you have all the cheat codes to make you invincible. We knew Dany, Tyrion and the gang weren't in any danger at all, so it wasn't really great drama, though it was very cool CGI. 

IMO it was done on purpose. Dany was all invincible and overpowerful, while Jon was totally powerless. Probably meant to deceive the spectator. But, by its excessiveness, it destroyed Jon character IMO.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

IMO it was done on purpose. Dany was all invincible and overpowerful, while Jon was totally powerless. Probably meant to deceive the spectator. But, by its excessiveness, it destroyed Jon character IMO.

I think you're wayyyy over thinking it. 

[boojam]

On 7/2/2016 at 9:10 AM, Bainberg said:

Then stick with the show. Name one show or movie that compares to the books? Exactly.

this whining is absurd. Dude we get it...the show sucks, the car in front of you is driving too slow, Your fries are cold, the band could have played 2 more songs, it's too hot, etc. sorry, I deal with children enough at home, hate to have to see it on here too

As far as the op, couldn't disagree more. Love the show and love the books. How about you attempt to be thankful you get to experience the greatest story ever told. It could be worse, you could be stuck in 1910 with Tom Sawyer to read

op

 

Agreed.

I think the show runners have a tin ear in spots or seem to be distracted, too busy, neglectful of plot points , as if Bryan Cogman and Dave Hill didn't proof the teleplays well enough.

But, as someone said long ago even when GoT is bad it is better than about 98% of all other stories on TV right now.

[Direwight]

13 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

As for me. On my first read, the last two books were lacking of big events (if you discount things like Jon's death). But now, on rereads, where I remember mostly what will happen, the action is less important than the content and the meaning. And I enjoy more the later books, with more premises of what will happen in the remaining books.

On a somewhat similar note, it's always been weird to me how people disparage ADwD and lump it in with AFfC. I distinctly remember than when I put the book down, I thought it was the best one yet. Now, in retrospect, it sounds too weird that I'd have really ranked it higher than ASoS so I might distinctly misremember, but regardless, I must have thought reasonably highly of it. And I'm the kind of reader who mainly cares about the familiar characters, plot and cool big events. While I largely didn't care for AFfC because of the boring new POV's and the split, I thought ADwD was full of things actually happening.

...things that would have made for really good TV, too.

[Solstice]

On 2.7.2016 at 7:36 PM, LatrineDiggerBrian said:

 

You could have a scene in episode 8 where Baelish is suspiciously able to cross Moat Cailin after it has been deserted. Then have the battle go as it did in the show, then when you get to the point where the Stark army is about to get crushed when they're surrounded, when the Knight's of the Vale show up the horses charge but fall into hidden trenches dug by the Bolton's before the battle (it's a trap). Bolton man throw torches into the pits. We get a shot of Jon passing out. He wakes up in Winterfell strapped upside down to a flay board, along with all of the other major Stark players: Davos, Tormund, Mel, Baelish, etc. Ramsey walks in with a teary eyed Sansa on his arm. Then you can have the Stark's get out of it somehow because Sansa somehow gets the best of Ramsey, or Osha jumps in to save them after escaping (would have to build this up in previous episodes) and the Bolton men just let them kill Ramsey because they truly hate him (could have more emphasis on him carelessly sacrificing his own men during the battle). That is suspense.

Again, maybe people think that's ludicrous, but the point isn't to say how great it is, it's just to show you how they could've made the plotting better. 

And I'd appreciate it if people who have read the book don't hijack this thread, there are already a ton of other threads for that. Again, I haven't read the books, so my thoughts are independent of what goes on in the books.

Sorry, this is the most stupid thing I've ever read. 

Ramsay is a psychopath, Sansa could never persuade Ramsay into not flay a person. Making every person  redeemable is somehow not totally Disney like? Especially if it's the princess that turns around the bad  guy? And Osha single handedly saving everyone...come on. The Bolton Men didn't betray Ramsay during the battle, why would they do it after a victory? Becuase his about to flay Jon Snow?

And the army of the vale wasn't destroyed, because they will need an army in the North later on. After Robbs war and the Bastard bowl, there are not enough men left to fight White Walker, the Iron Born, Dany or anyone. People dont grow on trees. You can't just kill everybody, because it is so "suspenseful" and expect to have large armys fighting each other later on. 

What you're describing sounds like a action movie, where a few people are able to safe the day.

I wasn't to impressed with season six and I wasn't happy about the Vale army saving the day, just because Sansa didn't tell Jon for reasons we don't know. The Arya story line wasn't that good either. The training was dull compared to the books, I hate the fact, that D&D are cutting their warg/skinchanging abilities, due to CGI budget and screentime for the actors.but after reading your posts. But how on earth is it a feel good movie, because Arya Stark didn't lost her identity? And on top of that, how can you say that you want grey characters, but implying that Arya is a white character, because her last name is Stark?

 

After reading this, I'm starting to feel grateful for what D&D created.  Obviously, it could have been worse.

[Ser Quork]

I don't really understand the amount of hate AFfC gets.  I remember being startled by the addition of PoVs as well as missing those Northern ones that are my favourites and, to an extent, the change of pace.  But whenever I re-read (and I do so quite often) , I always do the Boiled Leather combined read and that extinguishes my issues.  And ADwD is actually one of my favourite books, so I have an even harder time understanding the hate that gets.

Do I mind the details and world-building?  No.   Do I mind the points of view that paint such vivid pictures of the aftermath and consequences of war?  No.

Even if there are some points of view I don't care for (and most Greyjoy chapters are included in that), I never skip them because of the clues and subtleties that weave throughout the text.  GRRM is currently one of my favourite writers precisely because every re-read rewards me with enjoying how the narratives all work together as well as with details and hints that I didn't pick up before.

Are these perfect books?  No, but no book I've ever read is such a thing.  But they are not just full of filler - far from it.

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

1 hour ago, Solstice said:

Sorry, this is the most stupid thing I've ever read. 

Ramsay is a psychopath, Sansa could never persuade Ramsay into not flay a person. Making every person  redeemable is somehow not totally Disney like? Especially if it's the princess that turns around the bad  guy? And Osha single handedly saving everyone...come on. The Bolton Men didn't betray Ramsay during the battle, why would they do it after a victory? Becuase his about to flay Jon Snow?

And the army of the vale wasn't destroyed, because they will need an army in the North later on. After Robbs war and the Bastard bowl, there are not enough men left to fight White Walker, the Iron Born, Dany or anyone. People dont grow on trees. You can't just kill everybody, because it is so "suspenseful" and expect to have large armys fighting each other later on. 

What you're describing sounds like a action movie, where a few people are able to safe the day.

I wasn't to impressed with season six and I wasn't happy about the Vale army saving the day, just because Sansa didn't tell Jon for reasons we don't know. The Arya story line wasn't that good either. The training was dull compared to the books, I hate the fact, that D&D are cutting their warg/skinchanging abilities, due to CGI budget and screentime for the actors.but after reading your posts. But how on earth is it a feel good movie, because Arya Stark didn't lost her identity? And on top of that, how can you say that you want grey characters, but implying that Arya is a white character, because her last name is Stark?

 

After reading this, I'm starting to feel grateful for what D&D created.  Obviously, it could have been worse.

Your interpretation of what I wrote is equally stupid. Namely, how you take away that Sansa is supposed to persuade Ramsey not to flay them. That's not what I meant. Nor did I mean that Osha would turn into Chuck Norris and kill everyone. Osha could crash through a grate in the ceiling with a shank, attempt to attack Ramsey, but he fends her off and stabs her in the process. Sansa grabs the loose shank and stabs Ramsey, killing him. The cowardly Karstark son bitches at the Idle Bolton soldiers to apprehend Sansa, but one of them attacks and kills him instead.

You would have to build up the Bolton soldiers doing an about face earlier in the season. Namely by having Ramsey just get completely out of control with his sadism and publicly. Some ways:

-After Roose's death, have a sequence where Ramsey rounds up key Bolton men and kills them publicly
-Publicly killing Fat Walda and the baby
-Putting more emphasis on the fact that Ramsey is completely careless about sacrificing his own men in the Battle of the Bastards 

Jon's remaining army could be still be comprised of Manderly, Cerwyn and Glover men. Plus there would still be plenty of left over prisoners from the battle who hadn't been killed yet, or Karstark or Bolton men who could join the cause.

I didn't say it was a feel good movie or that Arya Stark isn't a grey character. My problem with Arya's ending to the House of B & W wasn't so much the resolution, but how we got there. It was too much of a Hollywood ending for me. It was too simple. The House of B & W story was intriguing to me, and I felt like we'd be getting a bit more of a complicated resolution. Or even one where the greyer elements of Arya's character were exposed. Or at least some more back story on the FM / Waif / Jacquen / the magic used to change faces / etc. I think I would've been fine with her leaving the House of B & W as Arya Stark had they arrived at the conclusion in a better way.

[ThePukwudgie]

I think watching/reading for the twists and surprises is a flawed way of absorbing narratives. Good writing can be cliche. Good writing needs no twists.

Sadly, I think this is something the writers have trained into their audience - a craving for shock value, and unforeseen twists.

I'm lucky because I tend to turn off my brain the first time I view things. It takes quite a bit to break my immersion.

Also, there's so much depth to every detail on screen and in the books. How can anybody be bored? Don't believe me? Just watch the indepth analysis on this youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/newrockstars

[maudisdottir]

I absolutely loved this season and have never been so hyped about 2 hours of television as I was/am about the last 2 episodes.  Even weeks later when I sit down in front of the TV I'll inevitably rewind my favourite BotB/WoW scenes over and over again, rather than moving on with my life and watching the 20 hours of other recorded stuff I can't get motivated to tackle.

It wasn't perfect, and maybe my expectations are low, but I squealed like a 13 year old at a 1D concert at the final 10 minutes of E10, and there was at least one fist pump moment in each episode.  Maybe I'm looking for a different experience from the show, but personally I'd rather not see endless scenes of pointless exposition getting characters up to speed on events we already saw, which seems to be a common complaint in the fandom.  How did Sansa know Jon died?  How did the Knights of the Vale know about the Night King?  Does it matter?  We don't need to see every conversation, and I don't need to see Cersei explaining her true feelings about Tommen's death.  I thought the whole sequence was amazing, and her cold acceptance of it to me reflected that somehow she expected it, that Maggy's prophecy had come true, and that her moment of triumph was tarnished by the son she professed to be protecting.

And FWIW, I'm a hardcore book reader who has learned to separate the two and enjoy each for what they are.  I didn't feel this way at the beginning of the season but they've won me over.

[BlueNightzx]

On 7/8/2016 at 6:29 PM, JonSnow4President said:

I hate the decline in book quality arguments.  There's a decline in action in AFFC and ADWD, as the build up GoT and CoK made was spent in ASoS, but the story continues.  I'm in the middle of a reread, and I powered through Feast because I had a hard time putting it down, while I lagged forever on ACoK and ASoS.  Sure, I can pick out a couple chapters that arguably should have been edited/combined, but I can do the same with GoT, ACoK, and ASoS.  

As far as the "action" in the books, it's clearly a big buildup that will soon be paid off in TWoW.  If events in TWoW underwhelm, I would consider AFFC and ADWD to be less than I currently do, because it will mean the build up was largely for nothing, but it seems like we are on the verge of game changing events in all storylines.  While I can see how they might be letdowns on an initial read through or if someone is reading at the surface to get the top level story (which I won't condemn.  That's how I did it the first time I read), I personally don't see how anyone can read these (particularly Dance, but also AFFC) and think a large percentage of it is pointless filler.  

Now, since I think the show has largely become the television version of Medieval Action Movie with Bewwbs, I can see how someone who likes what the show has become  might dislike Feast, for a different set of interests.  But given that the show couldn't be Medieval Action Movie (although it had plenty of Bewwwwbs) early on due to budget, I'm a little shocked at how prevalent that demographic is. 

I disagree on the argument that affc is a "build up" book,

particularly, , affc is my favorite book, and to me is the culmination of the delicate ant war sentiment of george, for the whole three books, we have characters that fantasize about chivalry, the honor and glory of battle, revenge avenging his father, doing "Justice, and for these three books, we see the locations before the war, simple and happy life of commoners, we see the chaos and woe during the war, and we see the consequences of the empty greed and selfishness of the nobility, the corpses, the dead villages, the rapes, the mother crying for their lostchildren and husbands, the chapters of jaime and brienne, is one of the best and most beautiful literature of our generation

the broken man speech alone during brienne chapters is a master piece

and besides that, is a book that we see characters change and grow, we see jaime changing in a completely different man, we have finally a view of cersei's mind, we see dorne for the first time, we learn so much, so many details, like that piece about the black dragon, washed at the river and becoming red with rust..

to me, after reading affc, dany's quest for revenge seems very little and selfish, the same for faegon and this is my BIGGEST gripe with the show, we get none of that desolation, of the despair, the skulls, the horrors of war

the show audience is rooting for a girl of 12 to murder people and bake into pies, because it's "bad ass", we're rooting to people to get burned alive by dragon fire, to get raped by giant monster knight, because its cool

this cult of the "Bad ass" and the negation of the essence of asoiaf is what piss me off.

, the only thing that really matters is the others,the real war, and in that case, yes, affc builds up to the real main story..

everyone has the right to have their favorite book, and if it is aSOS, OR ACOK, thats ok, but to say that affc is a bad book?

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

5 hours ago, ThePukwudgie said:

I think watching/reading for the twists and surprises is a flawed way of absorbing narratives. Good writing can be cliche. Good writing needs no twists.

Sadly, I think this is something the writers have trained into their audience - a craving for shock value, and unforeseen twists.

I'm lucky because I tend to turn off my brain the first time I view things. It takes quite a bit to break my immersion.

Also, there's so much depth to every detail on screen and in the books. How can anybody be bored? Don't believe me? Just watch the indepth analysis on this youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/newrockstars

If you read my post, my criticism is far more than just "lacking twists and surprises".