Who Is The Most OVERRATED Battle Commander?

[Jango]

Ignore this post. I didn't read the title of the original post completely.

[Valyrian Blade]

Definitely not Tywin, i'd say Randyll Tarly is.

All his glory comes from winning a battle against Robert. Had Robert not been victorious at the trident Tarly's victory would be forgotten.

[The Sleeper]

8 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

No, not really. Tywin seems to be an expert (for a Westerosi lord at least) at logistics. Him assembling his host so quickly and striking as quick as he did is pretty similar to how he won the Reyne/Tarbeck war and how he beat the Rebels to Kings Landing, and then took the city in hours (pretty much a medieval marvel) or even how he was able to get back to Kings Landing while Stannis was attacking.

GRRM has been pretty consistent with Tywin's strengths as a military leader and the speed and organization he has is not something that just occurred in one event, but has happened time and again when Tywin has been involved in battle.

There is speed and there is premeditation. Even if he started assembling his host the time Jaime fled from King's Landing, that still is fast. The Reynes and Tarbrecks are the same deal. He gave them an ultimatum they couldn't respond to, to give himself a pretext and attacked with forces he had on standby.

 

8 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

10-20 years of divided rule between the Boltons and the Ironborb would have seen a Stark heir (child of Sansa) supported by the riches of the Crown easily able to gain control of the North, especially with intelligent marriage alliances between this Stark and another Northern House. Anyone who has read any medieval history would not see this as the unlikely event you do.

The Ironborne never established any rule over the North and never could. They would have been cleared out of Moat Cailin at most within two years and the other two castles would soon follow. They might have continued raiding the western coasts and even take Bear Island, but eventually they would have lost steam, well before the 10 years you propose. A Stark heir at this juncture would have been a puppet for whichever lord chose to support him and Tyrion would have been baggage and a soon to be corpse. Let's call it, the only ones who would be interested and powerful enough at this juncture would be the Manderlys. They would take custody of the kid and get rid of Tyrion. Otherwise the moment they crossed the Neck, the Boltons would jump the party keep Sansa and kill everyone else.

 

9 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

How do you figure that? Before the war he was nothing more than the father-in-law to the King and after the war he was the Hand of the King. How exactly did he end up with less control when he was Hand and resided in Kings Landing than the period when Ned and Jon Arryn were Hands?

And he secured joffrey's succession. The next King was Joffreys younger brother. Mission accomplished.

Joffrey succeeding Robert. That was the question as his uncles objected. 

Before the war his daughter was the queen, he had a massive presence at court and the administration and in large house Lannister played solo and largely supported the throne. After the war he depends on the Tyrells. If your subordinate is more powerful, he is not your subordinate. Essentially the Tyrells supplanted house Lannister.

[The Sleeper]

8 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

I don't recall any indication that Tywin sent Gregor raiding after learning Ned was hurt, adds up fine and we hear Ned say he'd feal with it himself if he were able. Completely consistent with both characters involved. It had a duel purpose in that it divided RL forces if it came to war but capturing Ned was the primary objective. Robert could call it treason, but would he? No, he'd tell Cat to return Tyrion and Tywin to return Ned. Jaime literally cripples Ned and Robert suggests no punishment. He'd rather make peace than have his bank and best friend at each other's throats. It doesn't matter if the Starks don't have a stake in it, powers beyond his control have turned them against him and they've proven hostile to him. The notion that Ned would aid the Lannisters for a betrothal a dead king made is ridiculous after all that's happened. Again Jaime attacks Ned in the streets and Cat kidnaps Tyrion, they are not going to fight on the same side. 

Any way  you cut it is Casus Beli with someone and you're not addressing the actual issue. Tywin did play his part in the events that led to the war, when it would have been in his best interest to prevent Stark involvement. Whether he didn't care or couldn't, it is still a failure. Regardless of how much Ned disliked the Lannisters and would like to see their influence reduced in court, Joffrey was supposed to have been a Baratheon. Taking up arms against him is whole different issue for Ned.

 

9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Not everyone at Oxcross died, some like Daven retreated to Lannisport. There is semi canon sources that say the 4k joined Stafford but if they didn't that makes it even worse for Robb because he's easily outnumbered 2 to 1 and there is no way in hell 4k men are required to hold the Golden Tooth. Edmure has let most of his bannermen return home while Roose is watching Tywin.

The army at Oxcross was effectively dispersed. And you don't leave a major border crossing undendent. As Robb did pass undetected they would have had no reason to join Stafford. Edmure could have reassembled. Stafford's host was supposed to march out of the riverlands to reinforce Tywin. If the men in the Golden Tooth had joined then Tywin would have left the Westerlands entirely undefended.

 

9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

I'd expect Ned to break the betrothal because Robert would be dead and he despises Lannisters. Plus who knows what Cersei and Pycelle have been telling him, not about the incest but still easy to paint Ned as an enemy.

The raids meant nothing, Robert dying is what made it irreversible and Tywin's subsequent invasion. Still these two were never going to be allies and we know Ned would support Stannis.

Invading someone else's territory and pillaging while assembing hosts means nothing? Generally people would consider it to mean that an invasion is imminent.

Ned might have broken the betrothal. Having met Joffrey up close that makes it probable. We know Ned would have supported Stannis, because he found out about the incest. The question is did Tywin knew? Anyway, it would have been in his best interest to adress or neutralize that hostility rather than starting a war himself. He took no single action toward that direction.

9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

They would not be just fine, they'd hold longer but Manderly still holds a grudge and would move against them. If they haven't been overthrown by the time spring comes then I doubt Tywin will have much trouble convincing them Sansa's child is a preferable ruler to Ramsey Bolton. 

The Manderlys would have been hostile. Whether they would have found the opportunity to act is another matter. A cold war would have been the most likely outcome. Either way Tyrion is redundant to either side and these events would beyond Tywin's ability to influence. The scenario of Tyrion becoming lord of Winterfell had so many hypotheticals it is defunct from the get go.

 

9 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

As the littledragonthatcould pointed out the last paragraph is just blatantly wrong.

It is simple really. Prior to the war the most powerful influence at court were the Lannisters. Now it is the Tyrells.

[Vhailin]

Robert, Stannis, Robb and Ned are superior battle commanders to Tywin. Each of them could easily defeat Tywin in open battle.

Robb, a 15 year old teenage boy who had no prior experience in ACTUAL warfare whatsoever, strategically outmanoeuvred him at every turn, to a point that Tywin had to revert back to his usual dirty tactics (sending ravens from his pavilion and ordering hits).  

[TheSTARKempire]

sad to see that some in the fandom thinks being vile and cunning to the extent of resorting to underhanded tactics to win a war equates to being a capable battle commander. Tywin's fanboys can scream all they want, but what wont change is the fact that he left behind an unstable realm and sowed boiling hatred towards filthy lannister(especially in the North). and it was because of luck(or should i say plot armour), Tyrion and Tyrells that they were able to hold on to the Iron Throne. Tywin is anything but a decent battle commander. 

[Lion of the West]

5 hours ago, Vhailin said:

Robert, Stannis, Robb and Ned are superior battle commanders to Tywin. Each of them could easily defeat Tywin in open battle.

Robb, a 15 year old teenage boy who had no prior experience in ACTUAL warfare whatsoever, strategically outmanoeuvred him at every turn, to a point that Tywin had to revert back to his usual dirty tactics (sending ravens from his pavilion and ordering hits).  

Possible, no and possible. The problem for Stannis is that he's a mixed bag and has so far not been showing all that much and there are some bad hints about his future on the show. And in regards to Robb, Robb never strategically outmanovered Tywin to my knowledge. Robb tried everything he could think of to force his terms of the Lannisters and only in the middle of the war did he figure out that with taking a crown he had painted himself into a strategic situation where he could not force his terms on the enemy and no matter who won the Baratheon brawl down south, that winner would be Robb's enemy. What Robb had going for himself is good tactics and most importantly an ability to suprise enemies known to be either careless like Jaime or fools like Stafford. If you look at the security arrangements Tywin has made around his camp when Tyrion comes with the mountain clans you'll see that Robb's suprise attacks would work a great deal worse against that opposition.

Also when had Tywin previously been "sending ravens from his pavillion and ordering hits"?

23 minutes ago, TheSTARKempire said:

sad to see that some in the fandom thinks being vile and cunning to the extent of resorting to underhanded tactics to win a war equates to being a capable battle commander. Tywin's fanboys can scream all they want, but what wont change is the fact that he left behind an unstable realm and sowed boiling hatred towards filthy lannister(especially in the North). and it was because of luck(or should i say plot armour), Tyrion and Tyrells that they were able to hold on to the Iron Throne. Tywin is anything but a decent battle commander. 

If there's someone thinking that being vile and underhanded equates military capabilities then I agree entirely with you. the Unworthy would be the greatest commander in the history of Westeros if such was the fact. The problem naturally lies in that you confuse things with each other. You say that due to the fact that Tywin died almost right after his victory over the separatists and the usuall whinning about lucky Tywin and the Lannisters are when in fact they have both good and bad luck, just like everyone else in the series. As such not a single argument, example etc. of military art is put forward to show against Tywin's military skill.

[Boarsbane]

7 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Any way  you cut it is Casus Beli with someone and you're not addressing the actual issue. Tywin did play his part in the events that led to the war, when it would have been in his best interest to prevent Stark involvement. Whether he didn't care or couldn't, it is still a failure. Regardless of how much Ned disliked the Lannisters and would like to see their influence reduced in court, Joffrey was supposed to have been a Baratheon. Taking up arms against him is whole different issue for Ned.

 

The army at Oxcross was effectively dispersed. And you don't leave a major border crossing undendent. As Robb did pass undetected they would have had no reason to join Stafford. Edmure could have reassembled. Stafford's host was supposed to march out of the riverlands to reinforce Tywin. If the men in the Golden Tooth had joined then Tywin would have left the Westerlands entirely undefended.

 

Invading someone else's territory and pillaging while assembing hosts means nothing? Generally people would consider it to mean that an invasion is imminent.

Ned might have broken the betrothal. Having met Joffrey up close that makes it probable. We know Ned would have supported Stannis, because he found out about the incest. The question is did Tywin knew? Anyway, it would have been in his best interest to adress or neutralize that hostility rather than starting a war himself. He took no single action toward that direction.

The Manderlys would have been hostile. Whether they would have found the opportunity to act is another matter. A cold war would have been the most likely outcome. Either way Tyrion is redundant to either side and these events would beyond Tywin's ability to influence. The scenario of Tyrion becoming lord of Winterfell had so many hypotheticals it is defunct from the get go.

 

It is simple really. Prior to the war the most powerful influence at court were the Lannisters. Now it is the Tyrells.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer, he can't prevent Stark involvement. Cat takes his son at swordpoint, Jaime maims Ned, so on. Him capturing Ned is his way of making peace with the Starks, Ned for Tyrion. Robert would of made it happen and both sides reconcile without either looking weak. Didn't work out obviously so he was forced to fight the Tullys and Starks before they moved against him and his grandchildren. 

Obviously you don't leave it undefended, but you don't need 4k men to hold it when the Riverlands have dispersed their already ravaged forces and Roose Bolton is busy with Tywin. They were supposed to support Tywin but I imagine that plan changes if they learn Robb Stark enters the West. Besides my original point is Robb was screwed if the Westermen learned Robb had entered the West without his magic wolf. You're trying to flip things around and say "well he entered undetected so the 4k can't join anyways", even though many of them probably did anyway. 

Gregor flew no banners, he was easily recognizable but Tywin was not openly raiding the Riverlands and could thus deny it. He could say Gregor went mad, it wasn't Gregor, etc.

He did take action towards neutralize Ned, his son screwed it up. He seems to have expected Stannis to rise against him, I doubt he was completely ignorant to the things at court even if he wasn't aware of the incest.

It isn't about Tyrion, again. It's about Sansa's son looking like a much better alternative than Ramsay. You can't sit here and tell me the North men would want Ramsay Bolton ruling over the North when Roose is gone.

Before Robert was king, now Tywin's half Lannister grandson is king. 

[OuttaOldtown]

Would seem to me Tywin isn't a great commander but a better politian than people like Robb and Stannis. Robb lost due to his actions off the battlefield and Stannis's pretty much handed him the Tyrell alliance on a silver platter. His ultimate victory over then was not based at all on his skill as a commander..

[Wolf of the Steppes]

I might get ripped for this, but I think the most overrated battle commander is:

Robert Baratheon

Definition of overrated: have a higher opinion of (someone or something) than is deserved.  

Exhibit A--"Robert would have done it in ten," Asha heard Lord Fell boasting. His grandsire had been slain by Robert at Summerhall; somehow this had elevated his slayer to godlike prowess in the grandson's eyes. "Robert would have been inside Winterfell a fortnight ago, thumbing his nose at Bolton from the battlements." -ADwD

Lord Tarly's van smashed Robert's forces at Ashford, before Mace could catch up, but it caused Robert to flee north to meet back with Ned, Hoster, and Jon Arryn.  He would have been taken eventually by JonCon at Stoney Sept if not for Ned and Hoster.

Yes, he won the Trident, but......."The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too". -AFfC

 We know very little of the strategy involved in the battle plans or movements made by the commanders.

Again, while I think he was an exceptional warrior, he greatly benefited from the caution of the men around him:

We have evidence from Jorah.........."He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …-AGoT

Final conclusion: Robert was an exceptional warrior, overrated battle commander.

 

P.S.  Although there is an argument for argument's sake about Tywin, I would have to say..............baloney!  

 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I might get ripped for this, but I think the most overrated battle commander is:

Robert Baratheon

I get that he was a mediocre King, poor father and husband and may not have seemed as intelligent as Stannis, Ned or (I'm assuming) Jon Arryn but he was the best military commander we have seen in the series. Perhaps his gregarious personality in peace time betrays a man who is a more serious commander during times of war.

The victorious lead commander in two major civil wars, the one General who did regularly overcome the odds, a man who did delegate properly and not only kept the support of his men but turned his enemies into allies during wars.

I think he is in a tier all by himself.

4 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

sad to see that some in the fandom thinks being vile and cunning to the extent of resorting to underhanded tactics to win a war equates to being a capable battle commander.

I'm not sure how one has anything to do with the other. You can argue that Tywin is a shitty person but that has nothing to do with his military capabilities. This might be a bit of a newsflash but being a nice person does not automatically make a good ruler or good military commander just like being a 'bad' person makes you a bad ruler or military commander. O

 

We can still recognize how shitty the betrayal at Kings Landing was while also being aware of the military marvel of Tywin beating the Rebels there and taking control of a 500k city in hours.

 

4 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

Tywin's fanboys can scream all they want, but what wont change is the fact that he left behind an unstable realm

Well sure, that is why Varys had Tywin and Kevan killed. He was aware that the only way to make the realm unstable was to remove Tywin and Kevan from positions of rule.

He actually made the realm pretty stable. The Stormlands, Riverlands and even parts of the North had conceded, the Ironborn were trying to negotiate a peace and there as money available to pay off the loans to both the Faith and the Iron Bank while the Tyrell-Lannister partnership was in union with Tywin's faction still having the upper hand and Mace and his faction accepting it.

The kingdom was stable, he'd brought a solid peace. He has no control from the grave to manage what others do after his death.

4 hours ago, TheSTARKempire said:

and sowed boiling hatred towards filthy lannister(especially in the North). and it was because of luck(or should i say plot armour), Tyrion and Tyrells that they were able to hold on to the Iron Throne. Tywin is anything but a decent battle commander. 

lol come on, don't you get tired of this old tired cliche response. You are like the bitter sports fan who can't accept that they were beat fairly in the field and have to resort to conspiracies rather than accept the better team won.

In also don't think you actually know what plot armour means, you have probably heard someone else use this phrase and decided you like it. Tywin did not have plot armor, he was unarmed, ungaurded on the toilet just at the right time Tyrion entered and found a crossbow. That was just dumb look (which happens to everyone)

 

Tywin had both good luck and bad luck bitching about the Tyrells supporting him after his side offer the best deal to the Tyrells is just sour grapes and branding it 'good luck' ignores the fact that it was reasons for plot* that the Reach and Stormlands turned against Joffrey in the first place. One act perfectly balances out the other and Robb had no expectation of the Reach and Stormlands not supporting Joffrey when he marched down South trying to threaten the King into releasing a criminal.

 

 

* I never understood this criticism, it is a novel, of course plot is going to be the reason for things taking place. It is GRRM's universe, anything he does is canon regardless of whether you like it or not. The whole blaming things on 'plot' comes from the fan fiction element who think they know more about the fictional universe than then man who created it.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

There is speed and there is premeditation.

It is mostly speed. GRRM has consistently shown that Tywin is a speedy commander with a decent handle on logistics and organization.

 

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

Even if he started assembling his host the time Jaime fled from King's Landing, that still is fast.

No, not really. And you are ignoring some basic logic. Edmure started assembling his army in response to reports that Tywin was gathering his forces. Not only did Edmure raise his armies in a similar amount of time but he sent them to the Westerlands as the first battle took place at the Golden Tooth.

Explain how the Riverlands were able to raise their armies in, actually, a little less time?

Explain how no one knew about Tywin was able to keep this army a secret only till after Tyrion was arrested?

These conspiracy theories you have would likely disappear if you reread the series or maybe even did a little fact checking.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

The Reynes and Tarbrecks are the same deal. He gave them an ultimatum they couldn't respond to, to give himself a pretext and attacked with forces he had on standby.

eh? Did you even read the Westerlands section? They responded to it.

The Reynes and Tarbecks chose defiance instead, as Ser Tywin surely knew they would.  Both Houses rose in open revolt, renouncing their fealty to Casterly Rock.  Tywin Lannister called the banners.

House Tarbeck was the first to feel Ser Tywin’s wroth.  Secure in his own strength, and that of his numerous friends and allies, Lord Walderan had oft been heard to boast that he had “no fear of lion cubs,”

 

Of course they could have responded to the ultimatum from the son of Lord Tytos, but a decade of misrule made them forget their place in the pecking order. They responded poorly, outmatched by a faster and more organized army.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

The Ironborne never established any rule over the North and never could.

Sure they could. The Ironborn have ruled parts of the North in the past and were currently ahead of Balon's schedule to take control of the North.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

They would have been cleared out of Moat Cailin at most within two years and the other two castles would soon follow.

Possibly. Other possibilities is that Robb would have met his end on at Moat Cailin like many more armies attacking from the South had done.

Balon's plan was a strong one and it seems abundantly clear that the Northern forces that remained were not strong enough to beat Balon's Ironborn.

After he fell to his death and the majority of the Ironborn abandoned the North for the Kingsmoot then all bets were off.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

They might have continued raiding the western coasts and even take Bear Island, but eventually they would have lost steam, well before the 10 years you propose.

10 or so years of regular battle between the Ironborn and the Boltons for control of the North would have seen a possible Stark return hugely popular.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

A Stark heir at this juncture would have been a puppet for whichever lord chose to support him

lol do you read much history?

Do you think the populace or even lords care about such things?

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Let's call it, the only ones who would be interested and powerful enough at this juncture would be the Manderlys. They would take custody of the kid and get rid of Tyrion. Otherwise the moment they crossed the Neck, the Boltons would jump the party keep Sansa and kill everyone else.

Yes because Tywin/the Crown would have sent them all by themselves. Obviously the Crown, endorsing a new ruler, are going to send them with the means to at the very least protect themselves.

 

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Joffrey succeeding Robert. That was the question as his uncles objected. 

Yes, they objected. Joffrey was still King and his heir, Tommen, followed him.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Before the war his daughter was the queen,

And after she was still the Queen (mother)

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

 

he had a massive presence at court

He had a far bigger presence at court after the War, it seems odd that you are seriously arguing that Tywin had more influence before the war then after it.

Tywin was the Ruler after the war. He was Hand, his brother and sons both on the Small Council while his grandsons were King.

 

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

and the administration and in large house Lannister played solo and largely supported the throne. After the war he depends on the Tyrells.

That is what most Governments are, a coalition of different forces supporting each other. This is a feudal society, not an absolute monarchy.

But please show evidence of the Tyrells regularly getting their own way from Tywin in this new government.

11 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

If your subordinate is more powerful, he is not your subordinate. Essentially the Tyrells supplanted house Lannister.

lol go on then. Use the text to back up this claim that while Tywin lived that he was not in command of Mace.

 

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 5:32 AM, The Transporter said:

Correct.  Rhaegar should never have fought that duel with Robert.  He should have stayed in the background as the mastermind of the battle, like Tywin Lannister.  Tywin gets a lot of heat but many of things he did made a lot of sense.  The mastermind should not put himself at risk.

OVERRATED battle commanders

1. Rhaegar Targaryen - made poor decisions at The Trident
2. Stannis Baratheon - lost to the Imp at the blackwater
3. Yurkhaz zo Yunzak
4. Jon Snow
5. Jaime Lannister

I don't see why not. He was as good as the best single combat fighters in the land, along with the likes of Arthur Dayne and Baristan Selmy, both of which he had defeated in various tournaments. Robert Baratheon is not mentioned as winning honors in single combat, the only mention of him doing well was in the melee.

[Lord Lannister]

I think it should be pointed out there's a large difference between a commander's skill on the tactical level and on the strategic level. A man like Tywin Lannister may be an average tactical commander at best, but an excellent strategic commander because he always creates a situation where the odds are in his favor. Whereas someone like Stannis Baratheon can often overcome the odds on the field of battle to win, but is terrible at creating a scenario off the battlefield that will create victory for himself.

[norwaywolf123]

Overrated:

Rhaegar Targaryen

Robb Stark

Jaime Lannister "Till this point as far as we know, wh dont know how he performed during the Greyjoy rebbelion."

Daenerys Targaryen

Mace Tyrell "Puff fish with too much pride"

Under rated: or good commander 

Jon Connington

Stannis Baratheon

Randyll Tarly

[fenr1s]

6 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think it should be pointed out there's a large difference between a commander's skill on the tactical level and on the strategic level. A man like Tywin Lannister may be an average tactical commander at best, but an excellent strategic commander because he always creates a situation where the odds are in his favor. Whereas someone like Stannis Baratheon can often overcome the odds on the field of battle to win, but is terrible at creating a scenario off the battlefield that will create victory for himself.

I dont think there is any evidence that Tywin is an average or below commander, he had a creative battleplan at the Greenfork and commanded the battle excellently.

As for Stannis his weakness is not in the strategic planning but in politics and diplomacy.

His plan to draw out Renly worked and his relocation to the North is the most reasonable strategy left for him in Westeros.

[Lord Lannister]

1 minute ago, fenr1s said:

As for Stannis his weakness is not in the strategic planning but in politics and diplomacy.

His plan to draw out Renly worked and his relocation to the North is the most reasonable strategy left for him in Westeros.

And attacking a fortified city like King's Landing with both the Lannister and Tyrell armies in his rear, and having no better plan to cross the Blackwater beyond the burned out hulks of his fleet was rather boneheaded.

[fenr1s]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

And attacking a fortified city like King's Landing with both the Lannister and Tyrell armies in his rear, and having no better plan to cross the Blackwater beyond the burned out hulks of his fleet was rather boneheaded.

There is no question that he is stubborn but at that point he didnt have a lot of choices.

He lacked the numbers to defeat the Tyrell army in the field and had no means to locate the Lannister army, time was also a factor.

Considering he almost managed to capture a fortified city in less than a day despite getting surprised by the wildfire trap speaks to his abilities.

 

If he was a dishonorable and ruthless politician he could have joined forces with Renly, supported the formers claim and then some time after the coronation had him assassinated to gain the crown with little bloodshed.

[Cragen]

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I think it should be pointed out there's a large difference between a commander's skill on the tactical level and on the strategic level. A man like Tywin Lannister may be an average tactical commander at best, but an excellent strategic commander because he always creates a situation where the odds are in his favor. Whereas someone like Stannis Baratheon can often overcome the odds on the field of battle to win, but is terrible at creating a scenario off the battlefield that will create victory for himself.

My main problem with Tywin Lannister in TWOFK is his strategy. He have good plan when it come to invading Riverlands, but when Robb come into play every Tywin move was wrong. He underestimated Robb at every turn and he was unable to predict his any move. He didn`t push Robb to make single move that bring him advantage. Robb start with 19,5k, He start war with 40k soldier, during war Tywin rise another hoste of 20k, Robb get Riverlands soldier, but not all of them, Tywin had great number advantage and he lose almost 2/3 of his army. He expected Robb to attack Harrenhall instead of Westerland, that is dumbest thing someone would do, everybody know that Harrenhall is impregnable and Robb to lay siege on Harrenhall would put himself between newly assembled army in Westerlands and whatever army is in Crowland. Nobady is so stupid to put himself in that position, even if Robb didn`t find secret passage it would be easier to attack Westerlands then to siege Harrenhal. This is best example of Tywin arrogance and his underestimation of Robb.

Every argument of Tywin being bad politician is over the top. He clearly show great diplomatic, stewardship and manipulation skills during this time. Parental skills should not be included in arguments about his political skills.

[TheSTARKempire]

15 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'm not sure how one has anything to do with the other. You can argue that Tywin is a shitty person but that has nothing to do with his military capabilities. This might be a bit of a newsflash but being a nice person does not automatically make a good ruler or good military commander just like being a 'bad' person makes you a bad ruler or military commander. 

Well sure, that is why Varys had Tywin and Kevan killed. He was aware that the only way to make the realm unstable was to remove Tywin and Kevan from positions of rule.

He actually made the realm pretty stable. The Stormlands, Riverlands and even parts of the North had conceded, the Ironborn were trying to negotiate a peace and there as money available to pay off the loans to both the Faith and the Iron Bank while the Tyrell-Lannister partnership was in union with Tywin's faction still having the upper hand and Mace and his faction accepting it.

The kingdom was stable, he'd brought a solid peace. He has no control from the grave to manage what others do after his death.

lol come on, don't you get tired of this old tired cliche response. You are like the bitter sports fan who can't accept that they were beat fairly in the field and have to resort to conspiracies rather than accept the better team won.

In also don't think you actually know what plot armour means, you have probably heard someone else use this phrase and decided you like it. Tywin did not have plot armor, he was unarmed, ungaurded on the toilet just at the right time Tyrion entered and found a crossbow. That was just dumb look (which happens to everyone)

 

Tywin had both good luck and bad luck bitching about the Tyrells supporting him after his side offer the best deal to the Tyrells is just sour grapes and branding it 'good luck' ignores the fact that it was reasons for plot* that the Reach and Stormlands turned against Joffrey in the first place. One act perfectly balances out the other and Robb had no expectation of the Reach and Stormlands not supporting Joffrey when he marched down South trying to threaten the King into releasing a criminal.

 

 

* I never understood this criticism, it is a novel, of course plot is going to be the reason for things taking place. It is GRRM's universe, anything he does is canon regardless of whether you like it or not. The whole blaming things on 'plot' comes from the fan fiction element who think they know more about the fictional universe than then man who created it.

 

His military achievements are not so great to begin with. He only won the war because Tyrell joined him, and that itself was brokered by littlefinger. when people think of tywin, they think of his devious red wedding plan. 

The North was never going to be stable after what lannisters and the freys did. You may think it is stable, but the process by which so-called 'peace' is attained is so questionable that rebellions will soon rise again once the opportunities arise. Varys was going to kill Tywin anyway. By killing him, house lannisters would be greatly undermined and make the way for installing the King of his choice relatively safer and easier. and he already have a young lannister under his care, Tywin is no longer needed. He didn't kill Tywin because the realm is oh-so-peaceful-thanks-to-god-tywin.  I agree with Kevin though since Varys himself has said before getting Kevan killed that Kevin's good governance is getting in his way.

anyway, I have been lurking in this forum for so long; and I know how much you like to continue the discussion on topics of Starks and Lannisters in particular. but I have no desire to have a lengthy discussion, nor do i want to change your interpretation of the story. you can reply. but i wont bother.