Vhailin Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Who, in your opinion, is merely average or even above average at best, in terms of military warfare (whether naval or land), despite how highly rated they are by readers? imo, Tywin Lannister is definitely overrated. During Robert's Rebellion he hid away in Casterly Rock, brooding in front of his golden encrusted fireplace. Finally shows up to sack King's Landing and order a hit on an infant and a 3 year old girl, when the war was pretty much over and it was clear the rebels had won. Greyjoy Rebellion? Gave them one of their only victories after his fleet got burned down in Lannisport. The Riverlands? Got outsmarted by a teenager... and even lost a battle to Edmure. The Battle Of The Blackwater was pretty much a Tyrell victory. Let's be honest, shutting down House Tarbeck and House Reyne's Rebellion was his all time greatest military feat (two vassals against the power of the Westerlands). Quote "Alaric of Eysen," said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. "I do so hope he plays us The Rains of Castamere. It has been an hour, I've forgotten how it goes." Quote The only singer was some favorite of Lady Margaery's, a dashing young cock-a-whoop clad all in shades of azure who called himself the Blue Bard. He sang a few love songs and retired. "What a disappointment," Lady Olenna complained loudly. "I was hoping for The Rains of Castamere." Tywin is simply a great politician; small wonder he was so afraid of Stannis Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Rhaegar Targaryen. Fought one battle, lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Vhailin said: Who, in your opinion, is merely average or even above average at best, in terms of military warfare (whether naval or land), despite how highly rated they are by readers? imo, Tywin Lannister is definitely overrated. During Robert's Rebellion he hid away in Casterly Rock, brooding in front of his golden encrusted fireplace. Finally shows up to sack King's Landing and order a hit on an infant and a 3 year old girl, when the war was pretty much over and it was clear the rebels had won. Greyjoy Rebellion? Gave them one of their only victories after his fleet got burned down in Lannisport. The Riverlands? Got outsmarted by a teenager... and even lost a battle to Edmure. The Battle Of The Blackwater was pretty much a Tyrell victory. Let's be honest, shutting down House Tarbeck and House Reyne's Rebellion was his all time greatest military feat (two vassals against the power of the Westerlands). Tywin is simply a great politician; small wonder he was so afraid of Stannis Baratheon. Is it "try to bash Tywin" time again? I'll try and get back to this topic later today or tomorrow and see if I can't make a proper post then. But for the record, Tywin was with Robert and Eddard to smash down the Greyjoys and taking over a 500 000 city in a couple of hours against several thousands of defenders is an impressive feat. Also if you look at the Tarbeck-Reyne rebellion you'll see how Tywin masterfully conducted that campaign and prevented it from becoming a larger war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinotaurWarrior Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said: Is it "try to bash Tywin" time again? I'll try and get back to this topic later today or tomorrow and see if I can't make a proper post then. But for the record, Tywin was with Robert and Eddard to smash down the Greyjoys and taking over a 500 000 city in a couple of hours against several thousands of defenders is an impressive feat. They opened the gates. I think, however, your signature addresses why I wouldn't consider him overrated: Quote Tywin doesn't start wars, he finished them. Staying in the Westerlands was probably the smartest thing Tywin could have done. Being a military commander isn't about succeeding against all odds - it's about aligning the odds as well in your favor as you can. I can't really sort it into the "most" but here are some reasons I think some people are overrated: Tyrion. Nobody exactly thinks of him as a military genius, but I think a lot of people tend to let PoV bias overstate his accomplishments. The chain didn't turn the Blackwater, the Wildfire (commissioned by Cersei and Aerys) did. The chain was a decent strategic move - it cut off their retreat, meaning that those ships couldn't be used in a second attack, but that turned out to be largely irrelevant because Stannis lost his strength on the battlefield. Tyrion thinks, "I saved the city!" and I think too many readers take him at his word. Jon Snow. The whole battle for the wall was pretty stupid, in large part because GRRM was just picturing things wrong (700ft was a mistake). But while Jon really proved himself as a leader and someone who can inspire his men, his actual commands were pretty silly. After Noye died and Jon got the wall, he should have just sealed the tunnel and sent men to patrol and shoot climbers. There was really no point in Jon's entire portion of the battle. The wildlings wouldn't have been able to tunnel through in time. But he won while heavily outnumbered, so a lot of people take that to mean he was a genius. Rhaegar. I think he gets over-valued as a commander simply because people buy into his "all a knight should be" martyr myth. Like @joluoto2 said, he lost. The Blackfish. Falls into a similar camp as Rhaegar, where some people are just really enamored with the character and seem to assume he's a military genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roswell Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, joluoto2 said: Rhaegar Targaryen. Fought one battle, lost. Correct. Rhaegar should never have fought that duel with Robert. He should have stayed in the background as the mastermind of the battle, like Tywin Lannister. Tywin gets a lot of heat but many of things he did made a lot of sense. The mastermind should not put himself at risk. OVERRATED battle commanders Rhaegar Targaryen - made poor decisions at The Trident Stannis Baratheon - lost to the Imp at the blackwater Yurkhaz zo Yunzak Jon Snow Jaime Lannister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valens Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I don't think it is fair to rate Jon Snow as a commander, as he didn't have the experience during the battle for the wall. It was his first true battle ffs! And how was Stannis supposed to know the Imp had wildfire? Stannis is surely NOT one of the most overrated commanders in Westeros. He is one of the best commanders, rather. I'd say Robert, because he made it mainly due to the strength of his host plus the hosts of the North and The Vale. I'd think Jon Arryn with his experience has a lot of the credit for their victory. Plus, he was almost caught by Jon Connington, or he put himself in harm's way when he went to that village to hide. Plus, right before that he lost the only battle that his alliance ever lost in the rebellion. I don't think it is fair that it is called ROBERT'S rebellion, when it was actually Jon Arryn that was the first to openly rebel and proclaim rebellion against the Mad King. But anyway...Robert was a good commander, but again, I hate repeating myself-he was more a great warrior than a great commander. He won those three battles at Summerhall but against minor houses which had no distinguished warriors or that large army. He had to be rescued by a Northern force, otherwise he'd most likely get captured by Connington and his army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I wouldn't put someone like Jon Snow as a battle commander since he only commanded the poorest force consisting of hundreds men of Night's Watch against 40k wildling force with the Wall as his ridiculous defensive structure that its very existence should render the wildlings to be useless already. Tywin lost against Edmure in the Fork didn't mean that he was incompetent. Had Edmure lost despite the advantage of crushing Tywin's force that was crossing the water, that'd make Tywin a legend and Edmure an idiot, but Tywin retreated (fled) while Edmure couldn't acheive decisive victory. Tywin Lannister never won a single battle without his force outnumbering his opponents. And he kept losing to Robb. He is a capable commander, but not that great. I found Brynden Blackfish to be the most overrated battle commander in the books. His only golden advice to Robb against Jaime when they were outnumbered is especially overrated. I doubt anyone take Jaime Lannister and Rhaegar Targaryen seriously. Jaime is a capable commander but he's too overconfident and hotheaded. Rhaegar was probably confusing his prophetic visions (I believe he had dragon dreams like Daenys, Daeron and Daemon) with reality during strategy meeting. Also, their opponents were not idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Hold Em Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogonthedread Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 It has to be stannis ..if you read most of his fans in the forum.,he was the reason robert won rebellion not ned or arryn or hoster but stannis alone contributed most to his brothers victory .. And jon i just dont know where this jon is great commander comes from for a guy who never commanded any battle ( maybe because of show I guess ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Tywin- I'm not someone who thinks he's a bad commander. He's actually rather brilliant. I just don't think he's as brilliant as his reputation describes. He won the Green Fork (I really think Bolton didn't try his best to win that battle anyway) and defeated the Reyne army in the early stages of that campaign, while they had pretty equal forces. Both are pretty good accomplishments. However, he lost to Edmure on the Fords (a hard battle to win, though, to be fair), the Blackwater was a Tyrell victory, and he was outsmarted by Robb on two occasion's. The main part of the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion was two house's and their vassal's against the rest of the Westerlands. Not hard to win. Jaime is a decent commander, but is too hot headed and arrogant to be considered among the likes of Randyll, Blackfish, Stannis etc(though that seems to have changed since the first book I disagree with those who say that the Blackfish and Stannis are overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 JonCon is the worst : thought war was about not killing your enemy and allowed a wounded Robert to not only survive Stony Sept, but escape as well. Now he is leading Aegon and will surely screw something up. cannot blame Stannis for Blackwater, he named Imry Florent and he failed in his command, not Stannis. Tywin is in the top 3 of best, so its always hilarious to see his name up there with the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Ned Stark. Never won a battle without the support of Jon Arryn/Hoster Tully/Robert Baratheon and yet some people act like he's one of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSTARKempire Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Most overrated - Tywin and Jaime Most underrated - Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goomba Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Texas Hold Em said: Stannis This. Especially on the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big P Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Jon Connington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said: Tywin Lannister never won a single battle without his force outnumbering his opponents. Apart from Robert Baratheon this is pretty much true of every 'great' commander in the series. It is one of things decent commanders do, only try and fight when the odds are heavily in their favor. Losing thousands of men in a win is still pretty much a pyrrhic victory in the medieval period. 2 hours ago, Schwarze Sonne said: And he kept losing to Robb. When did Tywin ever face Robb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorEmixam Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 4 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said: Being a military commander isn't about succeeding against all odds - it's about aligning the odds as well in your favor as you can. .... Tyrion. Nobody exactly thinks of him as a military genius, but I think a lot of people tend to let PoV bias overstate his accomplishments. The chain didn't turn the Blackwater, the Wildfire (commissioned by Cersei and Aerys) did. Aren't you contradicting yourself?... Tyrion made best of what he had, Aerys would have burn his own city, Cercei probably would have done the same trying to catapult it over the city walls. It's like saying Stannis is not a good militairy commander because he didn't build the ships himself.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorEmixam Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 3 hours ago, The Transporter said: Stannis Baratheon - lost to the Imp at the blackwater Exept he didn't, he beated Tyrion even with the wildfire. Stannis lost to the Tyrells and Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Bash the Tywin threads are the best, though I guess I can agree that with the kind of reputation Tywin gathered for himself with his feats he might had been a bit overrated, which was of course his purpose. During Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion Tywin managed to put those two houses and their allies in a position where their chance of victory was very small and showed some tactical ingenuity in the brutal way he dealt with the Reyne's who stubbornly holed up in their castle. It was actually Tywin's finest hour as a commander if you ask me. During Robert's Rebellion, staying out of the fight is hardly a plus nor a minus for a military commander, he was neutral. His taking of King's Landing, while under a ruse, was still at the very least somewhat impressive, considering the thousands of defenders, the inner castle (Red Keep) and the fact that Ned was literally only hours behind. He managed to take over the city and consolidate the situation before Ned's vanguard managed to mess things up. And in War of the Five Kings he pretty much did all he could but his plans were badly messed up by circumstances outside his control (mostly Cersei being a frigging idiot). In the end with a bit of good luck he did manage to pull a win in that one too in the grander scale, even if his tactical victories were fairly unimpressive. That was more of a win for the "Tywin the Politician" than "Tywin the Commander". I'd prolly go with Stannis too, especially if I can consider the overhyping he gets on these boards. His achievements were fairly mediocre, defending a castle that never fell, defeating Victarion (though, admittedly, a good naval commander) with a hugely superior force and then losing Blackwater and winning against the unorganized Wildling horde. He is not bad, he is actually a pretty solid commander, but by far he does not match up to the greats of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Good commander chose were and when they will fight and Tywin loose to Robb every time, he was surprised and outmaneuvered every time. He let Robb enter Westerlands, where he pillage and took castles of his vassals. He would enter his trap if Edmur didn't stop him, do to lack of communications. Tywin win his war politically not militarily and this make him great politician not military strategist. He is really overrated. I don't know why Jon is overrated and why would anyone think he is great general. We know he have potential to become great commander, but he need to win few battles to fulfill potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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