Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

You certainly make some good points. I acknowledge that the Blackfyres are probably a dangling plot that GRRM has up his sleeve,ready to bring back in a big way, I'd actually really enjoy it if young griff turns out to be a blackfyre, but the silver hair...the eyes, striking resemblances to Rhaegar. I know the BFs shared similar traits as they are of blood. So yah maybe, young Griff isn't Rhaegar or Ashara's.

 Anyhow, the biggest reason I believe Ashara's child is out there (& maybe Ashara herself) is that I believe Dawn=Lightbringer, and that her child is destined to inherit this sword. It is all part of the same prophecy that Rhaegar believed so dearly.

Now what if prophecy is all just a bunch of wishful thinking? Well then, this would be hardly as interesting of a story. As we are seeing with Cersei's children,some prophecies are bound to come true, either by fate or coincidence.

Aegon doesn't have to be a Blackfyre even. Lyseni have silver hair and purple eyes. As for a resemblance to Rhaegar => Cersei thinks Auranne Waters resembles Rhaegar, and notes it's the hair and eyes thing. So, Blackfyre, Valerion, Lyseni, Targ and even some Daynes seem to have that similar look.

Regarding Tyrion believing Griff is truly Rhaegar's son - there is no indication that Tyrion ever met Rhaegar. Tyrion was kept at CR for most of his life by Tywin, certainly when still growing up. Tywin did hold a tourney at Lannisport where he offered Cersei to Aerys as a bride for Rhaegar in '76. Rhaegar was the finalist in that tourney, beaten by Arthur Dayne. Tyrion was barely 3 years old (born in '73). It's also unlikely that Tywin would even have allowed Tyrion to be taken to the tourney.

The only real connaisseur is JonCon, since he was in love with Rhaegar. But if Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son, he might just as well be the actual Aegon. Arthur Dayne followed his prince very commitedly, I can't see Arthur remaining committed to Rhaegar if Rhaegar fathered a child on his sister and then fathers a child with Lyanna, nor would he give his life for Lyanna's son over that of his sister's, in the timespan of little over a year almost. It would mean that Arthur helps Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna while his sister is about to have Rhaegar's child? No way!

[Curled Finger]

55 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

Then how would you explain his silver hair? According to the westeros.org wiki, his hair is silver as noted by Tyrion in chapter 18 ADWDs.

Tyrion is 99% convinced he is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, and Tyrion is no fool. I'm not really doubting he is the son of Rhaegar, I'm just thinking of ways he might be Ashara's son. 

What would V&I have against Rhaegar or Ashara for that matter? Yes, I understand they would probably rather have a Blackfyre sitting on the throne, but that is kind of a topic for another day. 

Ashara remains the biggest mystery to me in the series other than the origin of the wall. I just find it extremely hard to believe that Ashara is just an elaborate mislead.

Silver hair (and purple eyes for that matter)  is a Valyrian trait not exclusive to Targs.   Valyrians have this which is why so many of us believe the Daynes to be proto Valyrian.   Tyrion is the one to note that Aegon is supposed to be the son of Rhaegar but never has been proven.   It was never clear that he bought the story, only that this is what the plan was.  I imagine we will glean far more on what Tyrion actually thinks about Aegon in TWOW.  The Wiki has clarified a good many things in my mind.   If you have a moment take a look at what the Wiki has to say about the advice Tyrion gave Aegon.    

I don't know for sure that the Blackfyre angle is what V & I actually have in mind.   It is a solid idea, but your idea is calling the Blackfyre angle into question.   Good.   Let's consider other options.  If there is no conspiracy to seat a Blackfyre how do V & I fit into Aegon's promotion?  I don't know that they would have anything against Rhaegar or Ashara unless they are Blackfyre supporters.  Are you saying that they are precisely what they are written to be, staunch Targ supporters who only want to rid the realm of the Baratheon/Lannister regimes?   I wish I already knew if that is what you are supposing, so please pardon me if I'm going in a direction that you didn't mean to.  I'm going this route because I am not convinced that V & I aren't completely interested in Dany as well as Aegon, though they've certainly gone to a lot more consistent bother with Aegon.   As I've said, I think they are playing both ends against the middle.   

Ashara is indeed a huge mystery.   I can see how she could have been used to mislead readers regarding Jon's parents, still, as you point out, there are many call backs to her that don't allow the reader to rest.    To be honest, I haven't expected her mystery to have any resolution.  As events wind down to endgame I hope to learn more about Rhaegar and the prophesies that seemed to have driven his life and decisions.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

Anyhow, the biggest reason I believe Ashara's child is out there (& maybe Ashara herself) is that I believe Dawn=Lightbringer, and that her child is destined to inherit this sword. It is all part of the same prophecy that Rhaegar believed so dearly.

I know it seems strange that Dawn has no wielder for now. There is no Dayne fit to use it. Maybe Darkstar, but no.

If Dawn is really Lightbringer, and belongs to AAR, then it probably don't belong to the Dayne anymore. If the sword is LB, then either the Daynes are descendants from the original AA. Or they were only the sword keepers. I like the second alternative. It would explain why their lords rarely used it. Only the very most worthy of them. If the new AA is not born in their ranks, as it seem, then someone else, Jon, is the AA reborn. It is then simple: the sword belongs to him. The Daynes and the Targaryen are probably both descendants of the first AAR. The sword just followed the wrong branch at some point. Quite natural in 10 000 years.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Arthur Dayne followed his prince very commitedly, I can't see Arthur remaining committed to Rhaegar if Rhaegar fathered a child on his sister and then fathers a child with Lyanna, nor would he give his life for Lyanna's son over that of his sister's, in the timespan of little over a year almost. It would mean that Arthur helps Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna while his sister is about to have Rhaegar's child? No way!

This!! And seriously I dislike Rhaegar like hell but some people seem to think of him  worse than he actually was. If there was any Targ that dishonored Ashara, it wouldn't be Rhaegar. It would be Aerys. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

How about this shiny bit of tinfoil...

Ashara's was the paramour Ser Lewyn Martell. Wait! Don't throw tomatoes at me yet. Hear me out, and THEN dismiss the idea.  Ashara got pregnant with Lewyn's child and couldn't hide that fact, but couldn't name the father for obvious reasons. Ned not only brought news of her brother's death but also that her Ser Lewyn had been killed on the Trident. She couldn't marry anyone in Westeros because her reputation was shot and her side (Targ) lost the war; if she loved Lewyn she might have decided she would never love again; if she loved Ned he was lost to her anyway; so she faked her death and assumed a false identity. It is she Arianne refers to when she mentions that Ser Lewyn had a paramour who was a great beauty once. Now Ashara wouldn't be "old" by my standards, but Arianne is rather on the young side and I could easily see her thinking someone from the previous generation (especially one whose looks have perhaps been ravaged by the stress of tragedies endured throughout the period of the war) as old.

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How about this shiny bit of tinfoil...

Ashara's was the paramour Ser Lewyn Martell. Wait! Don't throw tomatoes at me yet. Hear me out, and THEN dismiss the idea.  Ashara got pregnant with Lewyn's child and couldn't hide that fact, but couldn't name the father for obvious reasons. Ned not only brought news of her brother's death but also that her Ser Lewyn had been killed on the Trident. She couldn't marry anyone in Westeros because her reputation was shot and her side (Targ) lost the war; if she loved Lewyn she might have decided she would never love again; if she loved Ned he was lost to her anyway; so she faked her death and assumed a false identity. It is she Arianne refers to when she mentions that Ser Lewyn had a paramour who was a great beauty once. Now Ashara wouldn't be "old" by my standards, but Arianne is rather on the young side and I could easily see her thinking someone from the previous generation (especially one whose looks have perhaps been ravaged by the stress of tragedies endured throughout the period of the war) as old.

Arianne is 23, she's not that young, if  Ashara is alive she wouldn't be old. Lewyn was her great uncle, I got the sense from how Arianne described that his relationship with the paramour was something that was ongoing. He was serving as KG long before Ashara was born. The timeline doesn't match imo, though it's interesting that she's described as a 'rare beauty'. That certainly leads to implications of Valyrian features..

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

Meera is Ashara's child and it was Howland Reed that "dishonored" Ashara at Harrenhal.

Ashara is alive and well at Greywater Watch.

[Eugs]

10 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I believe that Ned and Ashara were deeply in love and he had all intentions of marrying her, but after Rebellion started, he had obligations as new Lord of Winterfell. I think that they had farewell sex at Starfall when he came to give Dawn back to Dayne family.

And the result of that farewell sex is Daenerys.

While this is a cool theory it would take a great deal of creative plot twisting on GRRM's part to make it work within the story.  I feel like Ashara & Ned has all the qualities of a tragic story of star crossed lovers who never get a fair chance to consummate anything let alone have a child together.  Perhaps there's another plausible scenario where an emotionally reeling Ned comes to Starfall with Lyanna's child and the Sword Dawn.  Spent from years of suffering for his family's honor, he's desperately hoping to be forgiven by Ashara so that he can finally make it right with the only girl he ever loved, duty be damned, only to discover she's expecting with another's child.

[Ygrain]

13 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

We don't know where she is now. We only hear from Edric how she's served the Daynes for many years.

She HAS served the Daynes for many years means that she is still in their service. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

One spanner in the works for the Ashara was lewyn's paramour theory is that Barristan knew He (Lewyn) had a paramour, we are told that his KG brothers all kept his secret. So if Barristan knew and it was Ashara then we have conflict within his reflections on Ashara's fate. 

I think Lewyn's paramour will turn out to be an older lady, with whom he had a very real, very stable long term love affair. She is clearly still well regarded and included in the Martell household. Due to Arrianne's knowledge of her being first hand. My guess is if we ever do meet her on page she'll be at the water gardens or sunspear and probably has some grandkids whom she dotes on. Likely either a younger daughter of a Dornish house, or someone high up's natural daughter. 

[Voice]

22 hours ago, MizasterJ said:

Finally, having said all this, I believe it lends a great amount of credence to the idea that the sword Dawn = Lightbringer, and that the son of Rheagar and /or Ashara will inherit it.

 

What if it was a daughter? And what if she were the daughter of both Rhaegar and Ashara?

You should check out this theory:

(f)Dany

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

This!! And seriously I dislike Rhaegar like hell but some people seem to think of him  worse than he actually was. If there was any Targ that dishonored Ashara, it wouldn't be Rhaegar. It would be Aerys. 

The problem with Aerys is primarily that he gave up perusing other ladies and swore to only share his bed with the Queen. After becoming convinced her many M/C's were a punishment by the gods for his infidelity. 

The second problem is that it is highly unlikely that she would want to sleep with the rather disgusting looking King. And the reliance upon Rape as a plot device is something theorists who don't bother using the text to build there theories rely on a lot. There simply is no evidence in text that Aerys raped Ashara. 

The Third problem is Barristan. Gosh this guys thoughts inconveniently disassemble so many Ashara's lover was XXXXXX theories. The man knows who it was. He doesn't directly tell us the man's identity but we can gather from his thoughts who it wasn't and it wasn't the King he was sworn to serve, it wasn't Rhaegar whom he spent his life protecting and it wasn't his sworn brother in arms. Any of these people would cause Barristan to hold extremely divergent feelings towards them than he does.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The Third problem is Barristan. Gosh this guys thoughts inconveniently disassemble so many Ashara's lover was XXXXXX theories. The man knows who it was. He doesn't directly tell us the man's identity but we can gather from his thoughts who it wasn't and it wasn't the King he was sworn to serve, it wasn't Rhaegar whom he spent his life protecting and it wasn't his sworn brother in arms. Any of these people would cause Barristan to hold extremely divergent feelings towards them than he does.

It is hard to escape a conclusion that it was someone of Ashra's dance partners in Harrenhal, rather Brandon or JonCon. I'm dropping Ned because if he was too shy to ask her for a dance then probably he won't bring things to the next level so soon. If it was Brandon, why should they stage the death of both Ashara and the child? A bastard of dead Brandon won't cause dishonour or hurt Cat's feeling more then living Ned's bastard.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

It is hard to escape a conclusion that it was someone of Ashra's dance partners in Harrenhal, rather Brandon or JonCon. I'm dropping Ned because if he was too shy to ask her for a dance then probably he won't bring things to the next level so soon. If it was Brandon, why should they stage the death of both Ashara and the child? A bastard of dead Brandon won't cause dishonour or hurt Cat's feeling more then living Ned's bastard.

Except Jon Connington is Gay.....

[Ashes Of Westeros]

2 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Except Jon Connington is Gay.....

Is he? I'm still reading DwD, probably I just didn't come to that yet.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It's not explicitly stated but it is there for the reader to connect the dots. Plus I think, IIRC GRRM has confirmed. But I could be incorrect on that last one. Though it is accepted as canon within the fandom that he is indeed gay. He was in love with Rhaegar himself. 

 

[Sansa Snow]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

She HAS served the Daynes for many years means that she is still in their service. 

That doesn't necessarily mean she has to be at the Starfall right at that moment. What would the Daynes even do with a 40 year old wet nurse anymore? Or maybe she still is working for the Daynes and was send to look after Aegon by the Daynes. Maybe she isn't in their service anymore and is with JonCon's group of her own free will. I just think that Lemore is Wylla because she very well could be and the way Tyrion describes her does make her a suitable character to be the missing and a lot mentioned Wylla. She is about 40 years old, beautiful and has had a child. The Wylla that was linked to Ned must have been beautiful otherwise I don't believe anyone would seriously think that she could get the young Lord's attention. And the pregnancy marks? well, a wet nurse definitely must have had a baby at some point. If Septa Lemore is Wylla, she probably knows Jon's true origins, which would be interesting. Do we know how long Septa Lemore has been with JonCon and Aegon?

[Masha]

19 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Aegon doesn't have to be a Blackfyre even. Lyseni have silver hair and purple eyes. As for a resemblance to Rhaegar => Cersei thinks Auranne Waters resembles Rhaegar, and notes it's the hair and eyes thing. So, Blackfyre, Valerion, Lyseni, Targ and even some Daynes seem to have that similar look.

Regarding Tyrion believing Griff is truly Rhaegar's son - there is no indication that Tyrion ever met Rhaegar. Tyrion was kept at CR for most of his life by Tywin, certainly when still growing up. Tywin did hold a tourney at Lannisport where he offered Cersei to Aerys as a bride for Rhaegar in '76. Rhaegar was the finalist in that tourney, beaten by Arthur Dayne. Tyrion was barely 3 years old (born in '73). It's also unlikely that Tywin would even have allowed Tyrion to be taken to the tourney.

The only real connaisseur is JonCon, since he was in love with Rhaegar. But if Aegon is actually Rhaegar's son, he might just as well be the actual Aegon. Arthur Dayne followed his prince very commitedly, I can't see Arthur remaining committed to Rhaegar if Rhaegar fathered a child on his sister and then fathers a child with Lyanna, nor would he give his life for Lyanna's son over that of his sister's, in the timespan of little over a year almost. It would mean that Arthur helps Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna while his sister is about to have Rhaegar's child? No way!

Tyrion believed that Griff is truly Rhaegar's son its because his companions believed it. And he didn't spend enough time with Illyrio and Varys to suss it out. All Tyrion can do is follow the hints given to him, if all his companions are true believers into Aegon Targaeryen alive again, then he believes it.  I need to re-read it, but does Tyrion actually think deep about the question, because all I remember is that Tyrion goes,  ah-ha, you guys are hiding a secret, Young Griff is Aegon, and then he messes with fAegon's mind about next step. 

But does Tyrion actually thinks if Aegon is real or just thinks that he is? Tyrion is too far out on that ride to go too deeply into it.

As for JonCon, as the despondent guy whose true love never reciprocated and then died tragically, he was given a silver heir/purple eyed boy at several years old and told that the last vestige of his prince survives, and the boy who becomes his reason for living? He would never even question if its a fake boy, you can see him just attempting to find anything ANY vestiges of Rhaegar in the boy. JonCon just tries to find any similarity between boy and Rhaegar, just desperately trying to justify it and other than superficial likeness, he doesn't. Furthermore, even if JonCon does find true similarities, they are should be considered as suspicious. Because its been over 15 years since he last saw Rhaegar, and he might have a hand-driven miniature at best? JonCon, most likely replaced faded face of Rhaegar in his memory with FAegon's features. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

That doesn't necessarily mean she has to be at the Starfall right at that moment.

It means that last time Ned Dayne heard, she was still at Starfall, or else present perfect wouldn't be used. She is definitely not gone for years which instructing Aegon would require (per Varys, since he was old enough to understand the teaching of the Faith)

2 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

What would the Daynes even do with a 40 year old wet nurse anymore?

We don't know how old Wylla was when she nursed Jon, but even if she was forty, so what? As long as she is healthy and not nearing her menopause, she can keep nursing just fine. 

2 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

Or maybe she still is working for the Daynes and was send to look after Aegon by the Daynes. Maybe she isn't in their service anymore and is with JonCon's group of her own free will.

See above. Aegon is supposed to be 17-18 or so. His schooling in the matters of the Faith has taken years.

2 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

I just think that Lemore is Wylla because she very well could be and the way Tyrion describes her does make her a suitable character to be the missing and a lot mentioned Wylla. She is about 40 years old, beautiful and has had a child. The Wylla that was linked to Ned must have been beautiful otherwise I don't believe anyone would seriously think that she could get the young Lord's attention. And the pregnancy marks? well, a wet nurse definitely must have had a baby at some point. If Septa Lemore is Wylla, she probably knows Jon's true origins, which would be interesting.

Ah. So we have a good-looking lady of approximately the right age who, at some point, had a baby, and that makes her fitting to be a person whose looks are never ever mentioned, whose relatively recent whereabouts are known and who has zero connection to the Faith, so she can hardly be instructing anyone. I don't think that "could be" is the right word here.

2 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

Do we know how long Septa Lemore has been with JonCon and Aegon?

See above.

[Ser Ronan Storm]

5 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

It is hard to escape a conclusion that it was someone of Ashra's dance partners in Harrenhal, rather Brandon or JonCon. I'm dropping Ned because if he was too shy to ask her for a dance then probably he won't bring things to the next level so soon. If it was Brandon, why should they stage the death of both Ashara and the child? A bastard of dead Brandon won't cause dishonour or hurt Cat's feeling more then living Ned's bastard.

I forget how old he would've been during the Tourney at Harrenhal, but what about Benjen Stark? Dude had to do something bad to get sent to the Wall...could he have loved Ashara? Do we even know when Benjen joined the Night's Watch? As a third son, he may have simply volunteered since he was so far removed from inheriting lands/power, but as we all know, his fortunes in those areas improved dramatically shortly after the Harrenhal Tourney, when Starks were dropping like flies.