Ser Ronan Storm

A Timeframe of Ice and Fire: Two Books, Too Many Upcoming Conflicts Left To Go

246 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, shadows and dust said:

There's too much if Danny returns to Westeros. If (f)Aegon has usurped her in GRRM's end-game as the 7K ruler it could still end in 2 books.

Winds - Clear up the North (humans), Whittle IT claimants down to Aegon vs Euron, Danny realizes Westeros is not her home.

Spring - Clear up the North (others), Aegon wins the IT, Danny breaks Volantis, is Queen of a slave-free Slaver's Bay. (dragons' bay?)

Won't happen. Not to spoil any show scenes, but what happens in the show will end up being pretty similar in the books. Aegon is non-existent in the show. They chose to cut him out for a reason - because he won't play a major part in the end game. He very well could take the IT at some point in Winds, but he will die before long.

GRRM knows if he doesn't bring Dany back to Westeros her entire storyline for 7+ books is pretty worthless. He won't do that. She is coming back to Westeros. It's just going to take a long-ass time. It will be close to the end of the book by the time she sets sail, which gives her too much to do in one remaining book.

Hence, more books are needed, which equals never an end to the series.

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He may be trying to help himself by finally chopping down a few weeds in the garden, aka his statement that Winds is dark, Winter and many deaths....but I fear that may end up just being a strange, abrupt type of tone for the book.  And, based on what he, himself has leaked, chapters and plot, it doesn't seem to have a faster pace than the last two books.  So, I remain in the camp that believes 7 books is not enough, and 6 books is all we'll get.

 

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1 hour ago, SuperMario said:

Won't happen. Not to spoil any show scenes, but what happens in the show will end up being pretty similar in the books. Aegon is non-existent in the show. They chose to cut him out for a reason - because he won't play a major part in the end game. He very well could take the IT at some point in Winds, but he will die before long.

 

I'd mention that he pitched GOT to D&B in 2006. It began development in 2007, and didn't really get rolling until 2010-2011. That is to say, all of this happened before book 5 - Aegon's coming out party - was published. Also, as the cannon isn't written, nothing D&B do moving forward can be considered cannon compliant or a departure until the books confirm or deny certain parts. We don't know how much end-game input GRRM has had in the show. And we don't know how much the story has changed in his head over the years. The gaps in publishing could very well be attributed to large scale changes being made. Perhaps the internet furor has illuminated plot holes he's no longer comfortable moving forward with. That he has struggled so long trying to figure out the knot or the time-hop could easily point to him changing some big parts of the game. And also - he couldn't really have shared the answers to these problems or the fallouts thereafter with D&B as they were moving past the timeline before he figured it out himself.

 

I say Aegon for the IT for two reasons. 1 - I see no maturity or value in Danny's storyline if she never matures past, usurper's dogs/smash the wheel/my kingdom by right and if she wins these battles and then leaves Mereen as poor as she left Astapor. So, if she has an epiphany and realized her "children" were her people, and her home is where the heart is and yada yada, you'd see growth.

2 - The IT battle, once the focal point of the book, rightfully places into the periphery when the battle for the dawn begins. One thing about the books I've enjoyed is how something seems so important, and then as more things are revealed and the stakes are raised, the original prize's value is muted. Jon may be battling for humanity, Danny for humans, and Aegon for an uncomfortable chair. It's the kind of background prize you can give a background character and let it live on happily ever after.

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14 minutes ago, shadows and dust said:

I'd mention that he pitched GOT to D&B in 2006. It began development in 2007, and didn't really get rolling until 2010-2011. That is to say, all of this happened before book 5 - Aegon's coming out party - was published. Also, as the cannon isn't written, nothing D&B do moving forward can be considered cannon compliant or a departure until the books confirm or deny certain parts. We don't know how much end-game input GRRM has had in the show. And we don't know how much the story has changed in his head over the years. The gaps in publishing could very well be attributed to large scale changes being made. Perhaps the internet furor has illuminated plot holes he's no longer comfortable moving forward with. That he has struggled so long trying to figure out the knot or the time-hop could easily point to him changing some big parts of the game. And also - he couldn't really have shared the answers to these problems or the fallouts thereafter with D&B as they were moving past the timeline before he figured it out himself.

 

I say Aegon for the IT for two reasons. 1 - I see no maturity or value in Danny's storyline if she never matures past, usurper's dogs/smash the wheel/my kingdom by right and if she wins these battles and then leaves Mereen as poor as she left Astapor. So, if she has an epiphany and realized her "children" were her people, and her home is where the heart is and yada yada, you'd see growth.

2 - The IT battle, once the focal point of the book, rightfully places into the periphery when the battle for the dawn begins. One thing about the books I've enjoyed is how something seems so important, and then as more things are revealed and the stakes are raised, the original prize's value is muted. Jon may be battling for humanity, Danny for humans, and Aegon for an uncomfortable chair. It's the kind of background prize you can give a background character and let it live on happily ever after.

Yeah, but conceivably George had Aegon in his mind before he pitched the show idea to D&D. For one, AFFC was released in 2005 with a lot of it written prior to that year. ADWD and AFFC are one book, so likely much of ADWD was written before 2005. It was only broken up due to time and space. And when he published AFFC, he originally thought ADWD would come out the following year. Obviously, that wasn't the case since it was released in 2011. But needless to say, he presumably had the idea for Aegon already established. Additionally, there are the prophecies in ACOK that mentions the mummer's dragon - likely Aegon. So in all likelihood, George had conceived of Aegon well before the show was pitched. But the showrunners chose to discard him as they have many of the non-endgame players - Victarion, Lady Stoneheart, Arianne, etc.

I agree George could be taking more time to really make some changes to the storyline, which I fear. George's original ideas, especially the first three books, have been great. He knew how the story was going to end when he was writing those books including what would happen to most of the major characters. If he's making changes just for the sake of being different from the show or just for the sake of change, I fear for the result of that. One, it causes more delays and likely frustrations with his writing. And two, he likely had the end the way he did because it made sense narratively. If he's trying to shoehorn changes in that don't come across as natural, it will definitely make the story suffer.

I understand your personal complaints with Dany's story, but you have to realize George is not going to do that. In the end, there likely won't be an IT, and even if there will be, it won't really matter who sits it. And it definitely won't be Aegon. George is not going to introduce a character by the 5th book who ends up being one of the most important people in the story. Dany is the 1st or 2nd most important character in the story along with Jon, and if he ends her story still in Slaver's Bay or wherever, it would piss off many a fan.

And unfortunately, since the books likely won't get finished, the show is all we'll have to bring a conclusion to the story. And because of that, it's canon. There is nothing else to say otherwise. George has been on the show hype train as of late, so if he is happy with it, you can't argue against it. I despise the show. But George chose to sell it before finishing the stories. He gave them the ending of the main characters and main plot points. In all likelihood, they will follow through with those endings. The means to get there may be different from the books, but likely who lives and dies in the show, will mostly be the same in the books.

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17 hours ago, SuperMario said:

And unfortunately, since the books likely won't get finished, the show is all we'll have to bring a conclusion to the story. And because of that, it's canon.

The show becoming the canon because it's the only one with a finished narrative, a punch in the smalls that is. How sad it's going to be when we all "misremember"; and all the snipped plots in the story never happened.

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On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:34 AM, shadows and dust said:

The show becoming the canon because it's the only one with a finished narrative, a punch in the smalls that is. How sad it's going to be when we all "misremember"; and all the snipped plots in the story never happened.

Yep. I agree with that. People already confuse the books with the show too much.

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I just realized that despite GRRM own comments, TWOW should not start with the "big battles". The reason is that Davos and Bran stories "ended" midway through ADWD and there are also extra developments from AFFC characters that should happen also before the battle. So TWOW will start before the end of ADWD, which is plain from Theon I.

So, the first chapters should be more or less like this (in not a particular order)

- Davos

- Bran

- Sansa

- Sam

Maybe also Brienne and/or Jaime

and eventually more than one chapter each and then we can have Theon I. So, I'd guess at least five chapters before the five we know about Meeren.

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8 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I just realized that despite GRRM own comments, TWOW should not start with the "big battles". The reason is that Davos and Bran stories "ended" midway through ADWD and there are also extra developments from AFFC characters that should happen also before the battle. So TWOW will start before the end of ADWD, which is plain from Theon I.

So, the first chapters should be more or less like this (in not a particular order)

- Davos

- Bran

- Sansa

- Sam

Maybe also Brienne and/or Jaime

and eventually more than one chapter each and then we can have Theon I. So, I'd guess at least five chapters before the five we know about Meeren.

Oh wow, the timeline is screwed. If a significant portion of this book must be spent on AFFC characters to catch them up; the disjointed mess will figure too prominently in the story.

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3 hours ago, Whitering said:

Oh wow, the timeline is screwed. If a significant portion of this book must be spent on AFFC characters to catch them up; the disjointed mess will figure too prominently in the story.

Well the problem goes back to the splitting of the storylines between Feast&Dance. But I don't think it will look aesthetically unpleasant. Also the number of chapters "to catch up" is not that large, less than 10 I guess. From Feast you have Sam and Sansa (max two each) and from Dance, Davos and Bran (two and one chapters respectively). Then we need to catch up Brienne&Jaime storyline, which is possible in one chapter of either of them and we are in position to start with the battles. In between you can have one of the Arianne chapters.

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2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well the problem goes back to the splitting of the storylines between Feast&Dance. But I don't think it will look aesthetically unpleasant. Also the number of chapters "to catch up" is not that large, less than 10 I guess. From Feast you have Sam and Sansa (max two each) and from Dance, Davos and Bran (two and one chapters respectively). Then we need to catch up Brienne&Jaime storyline, which is possible in one chapter of either of them and we are in position to start with the battles. In between you can have one of the Arianne chapters.

I doubt that any character bar Daenerys will get more than 8 chapters in Winds, and Sam and Davos I see with 5 or less.  So I would expect only one each to catch up, with Sansa maybe getting two (including the one we have seen).  Even including Jaime/Brienne, the battles could start pretty quickly (6 or 7 chapters in).

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I doubt that any character bar Daenerys will get more than 8 chapters in Winds, and Sam and Davos I see with 5 or less.  So I would expect only one each to catch up, with Sansa maybe getting two (including the one we have seen).  Even including Jaime/Brienne, the battles could start pretty quickly (6 or 7 chapters in).

Of all PoV I mentioned, I believe that Davos at leat will require more than one chapter. The reason is that he was sent to a completely new location (Skagos) that requires significant world building (basically all we have heard before about Skagos is likely BS) and a new storyline.  GRRM didn't come upwith that weird Wex Pyke retcon for nothing. Davos didn't go to Skagos just to pick up Rickon, the Skagosi are likely to play an important role here and for that you need more space. Given the time span, Davos, Rickon, Osha, Shaggydog  and an army of Skagosi mounted on unicorns may be in their way to Winterfell already. Unlikely but possible.

Bran on the other hand won't have too many chapters, otherwise it will give us too much information from the other side of the weirdwood camera.

But I agree that there will be 5-8 chapters before the battles, more or less like that:

- Davos I

- Sam

- Bran

- Sansa (released)

- Arianne I (released)

- Davos II

- Brienne or Jaime

- Theon I (released)

- Battles, intermixed with Arianne II, the Forsaken, Sam II, Sansa tourney, Cersei I, Daenerys I, etc.

Mercy seem to be further down in the storyline. First Jon chapter (Ghost) should be after the battles.

 

Edited by rotting sea cow

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12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Of all PoV I mentioned, I believe that Davos at leat will require more than one chapter. The reason is that he was sent to a completely new location (Skagos) that requires significant world building (basically all we have heard before about Skagos is likely BS) and a new storyline.  GRRM didn't come upwith that weird Wex Pyke retcon for nothing. Davos didn't go to Skagos just to pick up Rickon, the Skagosi are likely to play an important role here and for that you need more space. Given the time span, Davos, Rickon, Osha, Shaggydog  and an army of Skagosi mounted on unicorns may be in their way to Winterfell already. Unlikely but possible.

Bran on the other hand won't have too many chapters, otherwise it will give us too much information from the other side of the weirdwood camera.

But I agree that there will be 5-8 chapters before the battles, more or less like that:

- Davos I

- Sam

- Bran

- Sansa (released)

- Arianne I (released)

- Davos II

- Brienne or Jaime

- Theon I (released)

- Battles, intermixed with Arianne II, the Forsaken, Sam II, Sansa tourney, Cersei I, Daenerys I, etc.

Mercy seem to be further down in the storyline. First Jon chapter (Ghost) should be after the battles.

 

Aeron will figure in there somewhere, I didn't read those chapters too closely, but I get the sense they are happening around the time Cersei gets arrested.

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11 hours ago, Whitering said:

Aeron will figure in there somewhere, I didn't read those chapters too closely, but I get the sense they are happening around the time Cersei gets arrested.

Well, I put the Forksaken (Aeron I) between the battles, but it can be before or after. It anyways describe events happening during months, but ends with the prelude of the battle against the Redwynes.

The ironborn timelines are a bit messy to be honest. The Kingsmoot should have occurred more or less in parallel with the Red Weeding, unless it takes months to gather the all the captains. Instead it is almost half a way of AFFC.  Then they take quickly the Shields, and Victarion is sent away. He reached Meeren but Euron is still diddling around the Reach.

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On 4/11/2017 at 6:30 PM, Whitering said:

Oh wow, the timeline is screwed. If a significant portion of this book must be spent on AFFC characters to catch them up; the disjointed mess will figure too prominently in the story.

I found this in another subforum. It is relevant to discuss time- and plotlines for TWOW

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

 

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On 4/21/2017 at 4:02 AM, rotting sea cow said:

I found this in another subforum. It is relevant to discuss time- and plotlines for TWOW

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

 

Unless I am missing something that post doesn't have any Winds chapters thrown into the mix. So, going back to that list to put them in is messy. Thanks for the link.

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1 hour ago, Whitering said:

Unless I am missing something that post doesn't have any Winds chapters thrown into the mix. So, going back to that list to put them in is messy. Thanks for the link.

Does this one help? It is the basic timeline that floats around the forum here and is updated as new pieces of info are presented, and it does have TWOW chapters in there.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Does this one help? It is the basic timeline that floats around the forum here and is updated as new pieces of info are presented, and it does have TWOW chapters in there.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

Comprehensive, thanks :)

Oh yep, messy.

Edited by Whitering
change

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16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It sounds like he is just doing consulting, though.

But consulting on 5 different scripts and storylines with multiple meetings for every one of them equals a lot of time.

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