Is Mance Literate?

[forod]

This is an aspect of theories concerning Mance that has always bugged me. For example, lots of people claim he wrote the Pink Letter, but we have no proof he can even write. I have no idea if growing up with the NW, a Maester would teach a child literacy. If not, and he is literate, it muddies his past even more. 

Thoughts?

[aryagonnakill#2]

I stated this as proof Mance could not have written the letter for a long time.  Then someone got me.  If Mance knows Bael, can be turned into Abel, he seemingly knows his letters.

 

Edit: I would still state that this is bullshit, as no bastard born ranger turned wildling should have any idea how to read or write, but GRRM put it in there.

[Philokles]

Whilst the average brother would be illiterate, those in senior positions would be expected to write. It would come as no surprise to me if Mance was being groomed for command. Ambitious, intelligent, cunning, with an understanding of wildling culture and years at the wall - he has most of the attributes the Watch would be looking for.

[Viking]

... or he is Rhaegar...

[theblackdragonI]

He was raised all his life at the Wall, so I'd imagine he was taught to read and write by maester Aemon.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I think he's literate, in both the Common and Old Tongues. I also think it's possible that Tormund is literate too. He fucks up a little bit in ADWD, proclaiming his illiteracy, but then in the same conversation, says that if he had a pen and paper he could write whatever bullshit he wanted in a letter.

[Runaway Penguin]

To know that you can switch Abel and Bael you do not need to be able to write or read I guess, but he also was using map (along with Tormund and others) and while it may have been just lines, maps are generally more useful with names on them. He may not be "Maester Grade", but I guess he has basics.

 

I really do not think he was Rhaegar, Watch seems to know him from little kid. If you are looking for Rhaegar, go to Quiet Isle  

[Viking]

I think it is quite possible that Rhaegar visited the quite isle when recovering from his wounds at the trident. The Elder Brother did point out that 6 of the 7 rubies washed downstream. 

[Runaway Penguin]

Well one crackpot I saw was that Elder Brother IS Rhaegar. 

 

Far more probable than him being Mance

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Well one crackpot I saw was that Elder Brother IS Rhaegar. 

 

Far more probable than him being Mance

The Elder Brother is for more likely Jonothor Darry.

[Curled Finger]

So did we determine if Mance is literate or not?   Wouldn't he sort of have to be?  Cite statements above regarding maps and command.

[Aedam Targaryen]

I'm sure he was semi-literate. I think he'd have been taught enough to read a map, so I'd guess he could read and possibly write names of people and places. Whether he could read or write an entire letter is a different situation. 

I don't think it totally unlikely though. While the watch wouldn't go out of its way to teach every ranger to read and write, if he showed interest in it, someone could have taught him. It wouldn't even have to be a maester, any noble at the wall could have taught him. But any of that is COMPLETE speculation. There's not even enough evidence for me to confidently guess one way or the other. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Viking said:

I think it is quite possible that Rhaegar visited the quite isle when recovering from his wounds at the trident. The Elder Brother did point out that 6 of the 7 rubies washed downstream. 

I would have trouble believing that as Rhaegar cremated, and I doubt that Robert would have let his body sneak off. I imagine he would have made she Rhaegar was good and dead.

[Dornish Neck Tie]

I would guess that Mance is illiterate. He is a low-born, possibly wildling bastard and so probably would not have learned to read before taking the black. He became a highly competent ranger, but was never stated to have held any senior leadership positions within the Watch. Rangers don't exactly need letter-carrying ravens to do their jobs; pulling a stunt like that will give up your location and betray your identity beyond the Wall.

It's worth mentioning that two of the first three characters we meet in the whole series, Will and Gared, are veteran rangers. Unfortunately they are lowborn, and this results in the green boy Waymar Royce being given command of their ranging. When they argue with Royce, they both cite personal experience of the North along with old folktales, rather than the information that can be found by a learned man in Castle Black's library. I think it's reasonable to assume that rather than wasting resources to educate illiterate brothers, the Night's Watch just gives leadership positions to highborn brothers who happen to already be educated.

[forod]

On 8/28/2016 at 2:27 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I stated this as proof Mance could not have written the letter for a long time.  Then someone got me.  If Mance knows Bael, can be turned into Abel, he seemingly knows his letters.

 

Edit: I would still state that this is bullshit, as no bastard born ranger turned wildling should have any idea how to read or write, but GRRM put it in there.

Good point, but knowing your letters, and switching a few round, does not (as you said) prove literacy. Either way, I don't know if this proves he can or can't write. 

15 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

To know that you can switch Abel and Bael you do not need to be able to write or read I guess, but he also was using map (along with Tormund and others) and while it may have been just lines, maps are generally more useful with names on them. He may not be "Maester Grade", but I guess he has basics.

 

I really do not think he was Rhaegar, Watch seems to know him from little kid. If you are looking for Rhaegar, go to Quiet Isle  

Mance's knowledge of songs shows he has a memory capable of remembering them. Therefore, as a seasoned ranger, who grew up with the NW and has an interest in Wildling culture, he would not need to be able to read to have an intimate knowledge of locations. 

 

21 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Whilst the average brother would be illiterate, those in senior positions would be expected to write. It would come as no surprise to me if Mance was being groomed for command. Ambitious, intelligent, cunning, with an understanding of wildling culture and years at the wall - he has most of the attributes the Watch would be looking for.

It's a good point, and could be true, but if you look at the current leaders of the NW, not all of them are literate. Cotter Pyke for example, commander of Eastwatch - and seriously considered for command of Castle Black - is illiterate. Also, Chett was never taught to read, even though it would  have been pretty useful for Maester Aemon if he knew, so we know the NW is not overly concerned with literacy. 

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

I don't think it says specifically whether he can read or write, but the book does point out that he is intelligent enough to know how. Doesn't Mance speak the old tounge of the first men? That would seem to indicate some knowledge of linguistics. Mance is a talented musician, which indicates that he knows how to learn musical notes. Mance plays the lute, but didn't he play the harp as Abel? Unless the book specifically says he is illiterate it is safe to assume that Mance can read and write, based on his demonstrated intellect.

[Aedam Targaryen]

Also, something that just came to mind in regards to Mance being behind the pink letter...

He didn't need to be literate to be behind the pink letter, he just needed to have someone near him to write it for him. If he's just hiding in the crypts in Winterfell, that's probably unlikely, although I've heard it argued that one of the spear wives could have been a kidnapped Mormont. I don't remember which spearwife though, or if she could still be alive.

I'm not sure who else could have written for him, but it's a possibility. 

[Jon Fossoway]

On 28/8/2016 at 10:54 AM, Horse of Kent said:

Whilst the average brother would be illiterate, those in senior positions would be expected to write. It would come as no surprise to me if Mance was being groomed for command. Ambitious, intelligent, cunning, with an understanding of wildling culture and years at the wall - he has most of the attributes the Watch would be looking for.

Cotter Pyke commands Eastwatch and he is iliterate. 

[Raisin' Bran]

20 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Cotter Pyke commands Eastwatch and he is iliterate. 

In my mind, it does not really have to do with whether or not he was a commander, but rather if he desired to learn. My guess is that Cotter Pyke, though likely a good commander, never really cared to learn to read and write.

A person is only going to learn as much as they care to. Since Mance seems intelligent and ambitious, and likely put in charge of other rangers, he was likely given the opportunity to learn.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Cotter Pyke commands Eastwatch and he is iliterate. 

 

5 hours ago, forod said:

It's a good point, and could be true, but if you look at the current leaders of the NW, not all of them are literate. Cotter Pyke for example, commander of Eastwatch - and seriously considered for command of Castle Black - is illiterate. Also, Chett was never taught to read, even though it would  have been pretty useful for Maester Aemon if he knew, so we know the NW is not overly concerned with literacy. 

And is seen as a bit of an oddity for it, no? Not the most impartial source, but Denys Mallister thinks so.