Military Power of House Tully

[UFT]

how many men can they raise at full strength? including the freys

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'd guestimate around 45k.

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

50 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'd guestimate around 45k.

Yeah, I'd imagine them around the same as the Lannisters or just below. They definitely aren't as weak as people seem to think. Their problem isn't fighting men as much as it is that they are in the worst possible location as most wars will probably drift there at some point. They are basically the France of Westeros. Definitely strong enough to hold their own numerically, but suffering geographically.

[Lord Vance II]

8 minutes ago, Make Shadowbabies Not War said:

They are basically the France of Westeros.

I've always thought of them as more of a Poland. Blessed but cursed by geography, constantly screwed over by aggressive neighbors and often times a part of someone else's empire. 

But yeah, 45k seems roughly right. Part of their problem in the Wo5K was they lost a considerable amount of strength early. Piper and Vance of Atranta (RIP) got hit pretty hard at the Golden Tooth before Robb had gotten his army south. Piper and Vance might control up to a quarter of the Riverland's strength (minus the Freys, who probably field the most troops).

That and Robb letting them return to their own lands instead of keeping the power bloc together...I get it, but it was a mistake. Plus what hope would an individual house have if the Lannister's show up in force?

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

Just now, Lord Vance II said:

I've always thought of them as more of a Poland. Blessed but cursed by geography, constantly screwed over by aggressive neighbors and often times a part of someone else's empire. 

But yeah, 45k seems roughly right. Part of their problem in the Wo5K was they lost a considerable amount of strength early. Piper and Vance of Atranta (RIP) got hit pretty hard at the Golden Tooth before Robb had gotten his army south. Piper and Vance might control up to a quarter of the Riverland's strength (minus the Freys, who probably field the most troops).

That and Robb letting them return to their own lands instead of keeping the power bloc together...I get it, but it was a mistake. Plus what hope would an individual house have if the Lannister's show up in force?

Poland is probably a better one, yeah. Belgium would have been better than France, too.

But yeah, I agree that they got hit early. Most of their force was wiped out before the war even started, and unlike everyone else the fact that the war took place in their land made replacing troops very difficult.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Relative to everyone else it would be significantly less than the Reach, though likely a moderate amount greater than the North and Westerlands.

45-50,000 is a fairly reasonable estimate, could be above or below that.

 

2 hours ago, Make Shadowbabies Not War said:

But yeah, I agree that they got hit early. Most of their force was wiped out before the war even started, and unlike everyone else the fact that the war took place in their land made replacing troops very difficult.

They definitely lost a significant portion of their forces during the battle of Riverrun and Tywin's fighting along the Red Fork. However the war taking place in the Riverlands makes it much easier for them to replace troops, not more difficult.

If Robb wants to raise more troops from the north he has to get in contact with Ser Rodrik, then ask him to raise a new host, then Ser Rodrik has to message each of the Lords and Castellans  he wants to gather troops to contribute to the new host, they each have to raise armies and send them to meet somewhere in the North, ensuring that they have proper leadership and suitable supplies to march down the Neck, then the have to travel for likely well over a month to actually get to the fighting.

Whereas for the Riverlords to gain more troops it is relatively easy to just send out riders to gather fighters. Of course the fact that Tywin is in the Riverlands gives him the ability to kill Riverlands soldiers and potential soldiers before they are even in a host, but those soldiers that aren't killed are much easier to call up than if they were fighting in another region.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

One thing I've always been annoyed by is how Jaime and Tywin just walked over the Tully forces so easily. Jaime's constantly listed as controlling fifteen thousand men and that number barely changed until Robb enters the fray. How are the riverlords so weak that their forces are broken multiple times in battle while inflicting very little damage in return?

[fenr1s]

Considering that Edmure only had 11000 men, with a few thousand Freys fighting under Roose and Robb, when he defended the fords against Tywin and Jamie twice destroying two Riverland armies almost completely, with his army of just about 15000, a total number of troops should be around 30-35k.

If the Riverlands had an army of 50000 they would not be driven to the verge of complete defeat by Jamie's army, Tywin's army wasnt even engaged in major battles at that point.

 

[BigBoss01]

5 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

One thing I've always been annoyed by is how Jaime and Tywin just walked over the Tully forces so easily. Jaime's constantly listed as controlling fifteen thousand men and that number barely changed until Robb enters the fray. How are the riverlords so weak that their forces are broken multiple times in battle while inflicting very little damage in return?

Maybe they were caught off-guard and had bad leadership other than that i can't think of another reason why they lost so easily.

[Masha]

Well, Tully sisters took major blame for that. Cat acted on impulse and underestimated Tywin's ruthlessness, her family wasn't prepared for Tywin's immediate counter-strike since she only thought to warn her father (and Ned) well after the fact loosing precious time. Ned only found out thanks to Yoren riding like hell after the meeting but Jaime found out at the same time. Plus Lysa purposely undermined her own family by releasing their hostage - Tyrion leaving Lannisters free to attack

When Lannisters summoned their forces - they called up the most trained and experienced soldiers, equipped them and lead on to pre-emptive strike.

Tullys didn't expect such immediate attack (thanks Cat), and their leadership was undermined by incompetent Edmure and dying Hoster lead to political paralysis in Riverlands till decisive leadership (Robb and Blackfish) too control. And till Lysa showed herself completely set against helping her family, Blackfish stayed with her. He only joined Stark-Tully forces when Robb was already winning battles. 

Also, because of sudden attack Tully could probably only hastily raise couple of thousands untrained unprepered forces to meet highly efficient and ready to strike 15K of Lannisters.

 

[Ser Something]

4 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Part of their problem in the Wo5K was they lost a considerable amount of strength early. Piper and Vance of Atranta (RIP) got hit pretty hard at the Golden Tooth before Robb had gotten his army south.

I thought it was Vance of Wayfarer's Rest who was killed at the Golden Tooth? Karyl Vance's father? (Karyl is referred to as a Lord from then on).

Isn't the Lord of Atranta blind Norbert Vance?

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

One thing I've always been annoyed by is how Jaime and Tywin just walked over the Tully forces so easily. Jaime's constantly listed as controlling fifteen thousand men and that number barely changed until Robb enters the fray. How are the riverlords so weak that their forces are broken multiple times in battle while inflicting very little damage in return?

There were two noble houses with their men guarding the passes into the RL. At best they are going to match the Freys at 4K apiece, probably a portion of which would have stayed behind to garrison the castles and holdfasts. Jaime has them at least 2:1 odds with the help of locals who can guide his army. Clegane and his men snuck around them to raid the RL. It's not entirely surprising that they got beaten badly. 

As to the battle of Riverrun, well Edmure isn't a seasoned commander and we have no real details of how they were arrayed. 

[theblackdragonI]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

Relative to everyone else it would be significantly less than the Reach, though likely a moderate amount greater than the North and Westerlands.

45-50,000 is a fairly reasonable estimate, could be above or below that.

 

 

The Reach has the largest, Westerlands has second largest, North has third. 

1 hour ago, fenr1s said:

Considering that Edmure only had 11000 men, with a few thousand Freys fighting under Roose and Robb, when he defended the fords against Tywin and Jamie twice destroying two Riverland armies almost completely, with his army of just about 15000, a total number of troops should be around 30-35k.

If the Riverlands had an army of 50000 they would not be driven to the verge of complete defeat by Jamie's army, Tywin's army wasnt even engaged in major battles at that point.

 

I'd agree that it would be around 30-35k. The Freys are the largest bannerman, just ahead of the Mallisters and we know the Freys can marshal around 7k. So including their own levies, the Tullys would still be considerably less than the West, North and Reach. Their strength is also their weakness, in the way that their holdings are quite small and centralised but open to attack from their neighbours. 

The Lannisters were able to crush them by attacking in overwhelming force out of the West against token forces of rivermen. They raided deep into the riverlands to force the riverlords to leave Riverrun where they were concentrated in force, and to return home where they could be picked off individually. Then besieging Riverrun kept the largest force penned up, while the Freys remained neutral.. If Robb hadn't come south, the rivermen would have been crushed within weeks.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

The Reach has the largest, Westerlands has second largest, North has third. 

I'd agree that it would be around 30-35k. The Freys are the largest bannerman, just ahead of the Mallisters and we know the Freys can marshal around 7k. So including their own levies, the Tullys would still be considerably less than the West, North and Reach. Their strength is also their weakness, in the way that their holdings are quite small and centralised but open to attack from their neighbours. 

The Lannisters were able to crush them by attacking in overwhelming force out of the West against token forces of rivermen. They raided deep into the riverlands to force the riverlords to leave Riverrun where they were concentrated in force, and to return home where they could be picked off individually. Then besieging Riverrun kept the largest force penned up, while the Freys remained neutral.. If Robb hadn't come south, the rivermen would have been crushed within weeks.

Where the hell do you get 7k for the Freys? They had four thousand men mustered in AGOT, and after losses during the WOTFK, they have around 2000 besieging Riverrun, an undetermined but clearly smaller number at Seagard, and around 1500 men in the North. We are also specifically told that the Freys in the North are the scrapings of the barrel, some armed with weapons barely better than farming equipment. Seven thousand is far too high a number.

[Canon Claude]

5 hours ago, BigBoss01 said:

Maybe they were caught off-guard and had bad leadership other than that i can't think of another reason why they lost so easily.

Bad leadership? They had Tytos Blackwood and Edmure Tully. Don't tell me either one of those is a bad commander. Edmure remains to be the one man in the series who faces Tywin in open battle and won. No one else can say that, not even Stannis or Robb Stark.

[fenr1s]

12 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Bad leadership? They had Tytos Blackwood and Edmure Tully. Don't tell me either one of those is a bad commander. Edmure remains to be the one man in the series who faces Tywin in open battle and won. No one else can say that, not even Stannis or Robb Stark.

Edmure was a terrible strategist who spread his forces thin and let them be destroyed piecemeal and then repeated that mistake after Robb lifted the siege of Riverrun.

His only redeeming quality as a military commander is stopping Tywin from crossing the Red Fork.

 

[BigBoss01]

14 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

Edmure was a terrible strategist who spread his forces thin and let them be destroyed piecemeal and then repeated that mistake after Robb lifted the siege of Riverrun.

His only redeeming quality as a military commander is stopping Tywin from crossing the Red Fork.

 

Exactly.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Bad leadership? They had Tytos Blackwood and Edmure Tully. Don't tell me either one of those is a bad commander. Edmure remains to be the one man in the series who faces Tywin in open battle and won. No one else can say that, not even Stannis or Robb Stark.

He held fortified crossings against a numerically superior opponent where numbers didn't matter. It's nothing to hand wave away, but it's hardly something amazing, especially in light of his loss in front of riverrun, sending a tiny force to hold the Golden Tooth, and spreading his forces out across to every holdfast to protect the smallfolk. Hell letting all the small folk *in* RR during the battle of the fords was a moronic idea.

[Lord Wraith]

12 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I've always thought of them as more of a Poland. Blessed but cursed by geography, constantly screwed over by aggressive neighbors and often times a part of someone else's empire. 

 

Poland is a far better comparison for the Riverlands. Divided lords, powerful enemies on all sides.

[GallowsKnight]

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Bad leadership? They had Tytos Blackwood and Edmure Tully. Don't tell me either one of those is a bad commander. Edmure remains to be the one man in the series who faces Tywin in open battle and won. No one else can say that, not even Stannis or Robb Stark.

Actually good or bad, Edmure was captured very early. It's Tytos Blackwood who held Riverrun the first time.