Why did Criston Cole support Aegon II?

[Minstral]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In a literal sense? Perhaps. But it could also be figuratively or metaphorical. The idea that Jaime eventually sneaks into Cersei's bedroom to literally strangle her there in some sort of awkward way involving his golden hand was always a rather strange image in my head.

We don't even know whether she is going to die in a literal way. She could survive the entire series only to suffer an Alicent-like fate in the end.

If Jaime had to go to the Wall he would never crown Aegon. If something like that happens we'll see Aegon pardoning Jaime because he is aware of the whole Mad King thing and makes a great show of clemency and forgiveness in light of all that. I don't think Aerys' hatred of the Dornish has been included to serve no purpose. That could provide the perfect background for a setting in which Elia Martell's who is only the grandson of the Mad King plays the nice guy when dealing with the sole remaining 'Usurper's Dog'.

Thus Jaime could actually become a member of Aegon's Kingsguard - although most likely not as Lord Commander.

Well if we go with that idea of Jaime crowning Aegon the he certainly becomes compared to Cole. Not their true characters in history but their roles as Kingmakers. Though in Jaime's case he would outstrip Cole in number of kings unless you want to argue that his enabling of Aemond to power counts.

Moreover, the fate of Jaime's historical character would be sealed in the same manner as Cole's, the moral ambiguity that would inevitably be applied to his character and actions in order to reconcile his image and increase the legitimacy of the king he supports (if they win). He would be a a character like Talleyrand, a person that history crafted, intentionally or unintentionally, as a figure that  whose motives can be argued in many extremes. Talleyrand can either being a great traitor of France or its hero that preserved it.

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Because he is a moralistic hypocrite do-gooder with a personality that sickens me and somehow believe he have the right, like a fucking superhero (which I most often hate) to do whatever he pleases to stop "bad people". His moral defense is laughable and he doesn´t even believe his "there are so many oaths" bs since he have no problem motivating those oaths in other cases.

These threads (as well as the following discussions) summarizes up most of it. In addition, this thread about Daredevil (and my post) is a critique of the "psyke" that I despise (and which I think Jaime fits). 

 

Whereas I see Jaime as being about as far from moralistic as it's possible to be.  He knows he's done bad things in his life, and admits it to Brienne.

[Protagoras]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Whereas I see Jaime as being about as far from moralistic as it's possible to be.  He knows he's done bad things in his life, and admits it to Brienne.

Yeah, I am aware my view on Jaime is not everyone share. But I see a certain...issue which some don´t nor even think is a problem in the first place, which worries me. And I am not really interested in getting some sort of intersubjective reality on this, but to convince people (which, as you see, I have tried elsewhere). No reason to take that discission again and hamper this Cole-thread. 

Edit: And I don´t think he really believes he have done that many bad things, but that people critizises him for things, like Aerys, that he believes was justified. 

[dsug]

I always read Cole as a giant baby who couldn't handle it when Rhaenyra rejected him. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Whereas I see Jaime as being about as far from moralistic as it's possible to be.  He knows he's done bad things in his life, and admits it to Brienne.

Yes, I see Jaime's admissions as him revealing his true self to Brienne. Their relationship is one where each allows the other to see them stripped bear emotionally. 

Jaime's confessions to her are in contrast to his confessions to Ser Ilyn Payne. With her he trusts her because he feels able to, she is softer than Cersei. He feels able to open to her in a way he has never with his twin. She gives him comfort and support at his lowest ebb. She forces him to carry on when he just wants to lay in his own shit and die. And she came very near to besting him at swords too. This is a woman whom he respects for her ethics, admires for her skill, and feels nurtured by her. 

Whereas his confessions to Payne are almost a joke, a self flagellating punishment for his ineptitude with his left hand. Ilyn can't tell anyone so he's almost being cruel with revealing these sins. His confessions to Ilyn have a taunting feel, and a gross humour to them.  

I think there is something there which is testament to the two sides of Jaime, but I can't quite put my finger on how to articulate what I mean. 

 

Cole is similar in some ways to Jaime and in others very different. I always thought Jaime looked at Cole's monika with envy, Kingmaker V's Kingslayer. But that when we read the accounts of the dance given through the complimentary texts. It turns out Cole was a first class arsehole. And we now see Jaime striving to be a better knight and a better man. Even he begins to dare to hope a better father. 

 

[Lion of the West]

I can't believe people can see Aegon and JonCon accepting Jamie onto their side. Not only would it be PR blow to them, but I have a pretty good feeling they hate his guts as well.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I can't believe people can see Aegon and JonCon accepting Jamie onto their side. Not only would it be PR blow to them, but I have a pretty good feeling they hate his guts as well.

Clearly, but what I think the author is setting up is a scenario where Jaime is predisposed to crown Aegon, or at least to recognize Rhaegar's son as the legitimate king, and where he is put off and personally shamed so badly by Cersei, that he will kill her to make way for Aegon. For this, I think Aegon would send Jaime to the Wall rather than execute him. And wouldn't it be rich to see Jaime fighting the Others for Rhaegar's true heir, perhaps the descendant of the Dragonknight, and quite possibly, with a sword reforged from Ice? 

[Lion of the West]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Clearly, but what I think the author is setting up is a scenario where Jaime is predisposed to crown Aegon, or at least to recognize Rhaegar's son as the legitimate king, and where he is put off and personally shamed so badly by Cersei, that he will kill her to make way for Aegon. For this, I think Aegon would send Jaime to the Wall rather than execute him. And wouldn't it be rich to see Jaime fighting the Others for Rhaegar's true heir, perhaps the descendant of the Dragonknight, and quite possibly, with a sword reforged from Ice? 

Could be, but for the love of my I can't see Aegon letting the Kingslayer keep his head for the sake of more betrayals. But I know that I've been wrong before though. Could be of course that Jamie tries to set things right with all of his own children dead, but maybe I'm just to fixed in my view on the character.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Could be, but for the love of my I can't see Aegon letting the Kingslayer keep his head for the sake of more betrayals. But I know that I've been wrong before though. Could be of course that Jamie tries to set things right with all of his own children dead, but maybe I'm just to fixed in my view on the character.

Perhaps Barristan will be involved somehow. Or perhaps Jaime will slip away before Aegon arrives to take the black on his own, after finishing his entry in the White Book, of course. 

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps Barristan will be involved somehow. Or perhaps Jaime will slip away before Aegon arrives to take the black on his own, after finishing his entry in the White Book, of course. 

Either of those two scenarios feels wrong to me. In the case of Barristan, I don't see Selmy want to do anything but see Jamie dead as fast as possible and should if anything argue against giving Jamie some kind of mercy for the dishonor he brought on the KIngsguard. And if Jamie slips away to the Night's Watch it feels like a collapse of his redemption arc and all his character development since meeting Brienne. In my mind Jamie should rather seek to die for his king than just leg it out town when the enemy approaches.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I just reread this passage and thought of our discussion regarding Jaime’s evolving feelings about Cersei...

Quote

 

"It makes a pretty candle, I grant you," said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane between Left and Right. "Bright enough to see us safe to sleep, I think. Old bones grow weary, and these young ones have had enough excitement for one night. It is time the king and queen were put to bed."

"Yes." Cersei beckoned to Jaime. "Lord Commander, escort His Grace and his little queen to their pillows, if you would."

"As you command. And you as well?"

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while."

Jaime hesitated. "You should not stay alone."

"I will not be alone. Ser Osmund can remain with me and keep me safe. Your Sworn Brother."

"If it please Your Grace," said Kettleblack.

"It does." Cersei slid her arm through his, and side by side they watched the fire rage.

 

Cersei III, Feast 12

[Protagoras]

If someone (against all odds) need more argument why Jaime shouldn´t be in a kingsguard ever, this post is good.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143645-the-kingsguard-dream-team/&do=findComment&comment=7760492

Cole might still be worse than him, considering that he throw the legacy of Viserys and his wishes out of the window, which is an assassination of my will rather than an assassination of my person, which I consider worse. Still, its a pretty even contest on who is the worst kingsguard ever.

Back to Cole, another point that makes him worse is that he orders Arryk to murder Rhaenyra or her children (not sure which one). On the other hand Jaime had that "If Tommen ask you to saddle the horse" episode. Damm, this is close. They both influence junior kingsguard with their bullshit. Another similarity.

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Either of those two scenarios feels wrong to me. In the case of Barristan, I don't see Selmy want to do anything but see Jamie dead as fast as possible and should if anything argue against giving Jamie some kind of mercy for the dishonor he brought on the KIngsguard. And if Jamie slips away to the Night's Watch it feels like a collapse of his redemption arc and all his character development since meeting Brienne. In my mind Jamie should rather seek to die for his king than just leg it out town when the enemy approaches.

What redemption arc

[Minstral]

8 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I can't believe people can see Aegon and JonCon accepting Jamie onto their side. Not only would it be PR blow to them, but I have a pretty good feeling they hate his guts as well.

Is that partially directed at me (if not then whatever)? I don't believe it to be a possibility. Moreover, I was just theorizing what would happen if Jaime were to be accepted (He literally would be a piece of veneer to their cause, poorly applied and the wrong color).

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Clearly, but what I think the author is setting up is a scenario where Jaime is predisposed to crown Aegon, or at least to recognize Rhaegar's son as the legitimate king, and where he is put off and personally shamed so badly by Cersei, that he will kill her to make way for Aegon. For this, I think Aegon would send Jaime to the Wall rather than execute him. And wouldn't it be rich to see Jaime fighting the Others for Rhaegar's true heir, perhaps the descendant of the Dragonknight, and quite possibly, with a sword reforged from Ice? 

 

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Perhaps Barristan will be involved somehow. Or perhaps Jaime will slip away before Aegon arrives to take the black on his own, after finishing his entry in the White Book, of course. 

It can be said that no plan survives contact with the enemy.

[Lion of the West]

9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

What redemption arc

The one starting with Brienne and continuing onwards. Its rather clear that Jamie is trying to become a better man by the standards of his culture, and the most important of that would seem to be that his Kingsguard oaths trumps all others. As seen in the veneration the members of Aerys' Kingsguard gets.

8 hours ago, Minstral said:

Is that partially directed at me (if not then whatever)? I don't believe it to be a possibility. Moreover, I was just theorizing what would happen if Jaime were to be accepted (He literally would be a piece of veneer to their cause, poorly applied and the wrong color).

 

It can be said that no plan survives contact with the enemy.

No partially directed at anyone. I just saw a couple of post with it and made a general statement about it.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure why people think Jaime is all that important in relation to the Kingmaker thing. Just because Jaime used Cole as a lesson for Loras Tyrell doesn't mean he himself is much like that man. Arys Oakheart definitely also shows aspects of the Cole story in AFfC.

Cole was just a lesson Loras that Kingsguard who grasp to high might fall into utter disgrace. Jaime himself is no longer likely to do such a thing. He is no longer wanting to marry Cersei nor does he give any indication that he wants to wield any power. Keep in mind that Cole was not only the Kingmaker but later also Aegon II's Hand, an office Jaime already rejected. 

The idea of Jaime becoming a Kingbreaker (his own children) and Kingmaker (Aegon) mostly has to do with the fact that this would be a very interesting twist as well as the natural next step for Jaime's continuing obsession with Rhaegar and how he failed him (in our face since AFfC but prepared since the weirwood dream in ASoS).

And I'm pretty sure that Jaime also will become a Kingmaker there in the sense that his public confession of his incestuous adultery with Cersei will help Aegon to quickly and bloodlessly take KL because public support for Tommen/Myrcella will immediately end after that.

20 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I can't believe people can see Aegon and JonCon accepting Jamie onto their side. Not only would it be PR blow to them, but I have a pretty good feeling they hate his guts as well.

The way things stand that is not so unlikely, actually. Again, Jon Connington has no reason to love Aerys II. Nobody has reason to do so. Dany, Viserys, and even Rhaegar might be sort of obliged to avenge their father in Aegon's position, but Aegon is merely Aerys' grandson, and he might know already that his royal grandfather was not exactly nice to himself, his mother, or his uncle Doran and granduncle Lewyn.

Connington's issues are mainly with the usurper and his line, not so much with Jaime. If George wants Aegon's star to rise very high very fast then showing mercy publicly to Jaime Lannister could be a grand gesture of clemency, one that would make the peace his new reign is supposed to bring actually tangible. If he executed him or intended to avenge his royal grandfather on him he might only antagonize the West and help Cersei's cause over there (assuming she and/or her children flee the city in time).

Not to mention that Jaime in team Aegon would put him into a very great position for conflict with both Tyrion and Cersei. In fact, unlike @Protagoras I don't see Jaime killing or actively destroying Cersei unless he has no other choice. Turning against her and their children would be a fine way to set the stage for a Cersei who is no longer willing to show mercy against anyone, including Jaime himself.

@Lost Melnibonean's idea of Jaime going to the Wall doesn't make much sense to me. Not sure there will be still a Night's Watch in existence as a legal entity when Aegon VI finally is crowned. Not to mention that Aegon has little reason to send anybody to the Wall in a time when the pretender Stannis Baratheon actually holds the Wall.

But this doesn't mean that Jaime cannot play an important role in the eventual fight against the Others. They can very well (and should) march down South to wreak havoc there. But then, the one-handed cripple won't be of much use there as a swordsman.

It is very likely though that Brienne (whose rescue was the whole point of Jaime's weirwood dream, presumably because she is important for future events) is going to become an important champion and fighter for the Dawn in the coming struggle against the Others. She is the one with the Valyrian steel sword (and quite a bit of Targaryen blood, if Yandel is right).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I like this post @Lord Varys very good. 

I haven't ever really considered Jaime as headed back to KL mostly I see him ending his days with e BWB. But of all the Jaime returning to KL scenario's I've seen this makes the most sense. His guilt over Rhaegar and his children is very prominent, and so I could see him doing so if he hears Aegon lives. 

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I like this post @Lord Varys very good. 

I haven't ever really considered Jaime as headed back to KL mostly I see him ending his days with e BWB. But of all the Jaime returning to KL scenario's I've seen this makes the most sense. His guilt over Rhaegar and his children is very prominent, and so I could see him doing so if he hears Aegon lives. 

Well, those things are intricately connected. Catelyn Stark has no use for Jaime Lannister unless he helps dethrone his own children and ruin his own beloved sister. And he seems to be willing to do such a thing already, without being forced in that direction and without knowing that Rhaegar's son has invaded the Realm.

Cat has no use for Jaime at her side or among her ranks. He is a joke as a warrior right now and unless she can be sure he would help her ruin and destroy her enemies he has no chance to survive. None at all. Keep in mind that Roose Bolton gave Robb Jaime's regards when he killed. She must remember that. And she has no reason to believe Roose lied there. Nothing what Brienne or Jaime tell should be able to change her mind - unless she sees an advantage in letting him live for her revenge plan.

And thus we can be reasonably sure that Jaime's change of character in AFfC and ADwD was necessary there to make it believable that he could survive another meeting with Catelyn - which in itself should be a major blow to him. Reading the Jaime chapter in which Jaime is first presented to Catelyn should be scary as hell.

Brienne could remain as a POV with the Brotherhood while Jaime (eventually) returns to KL (or is sent to Storm's End accompanied by a retinue of the outlaws).

But then, the Brotherhood is not going to remain a small thing. With Brynden out there, the hints at

Spoiler

what seems to be the topic of the Prologue,

as well as Tom as Cat's agent within Riverrun we have every reason to expect an broad uprising in the Riverlands soon, leading the destruction of the Lannister and Frey forces and garrisons there.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes, I kinda didn't see Lady Stoneheart as surviving very long though tbh. But admit fully that this was mostly due to my dislike initially of the resurrection. 

Having had a lot of time since my first read to consider the reasons and implications of her resurrection however I may have altered my view point somewhat. 

 

Yes I agree we are in for a big uprising in the RL's. 

I always just felt Jaime's time in Kl was done, but I do think you have presented a very plausible reason for him to return. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, those things are intricately connected. Catelyn Stark has no use for Jaime Lannister unless he helps dethrone his own children and ruin his own beloved sister. And he seems to be willing to do such a thing already, without being forced in that direction and without knowing that Rhaegar's son has invaded the Realm.

Cat has no use for Jaime at her side or among her ranks. He is a joke as a warrior right now and unless she can be sure he would help her ruin and destroy her enemies he has no chance to survive. None at all. Keep in mind that Roose Bolton gave Robb Jaime's regards when he killed. She must remember that. And she has no reason to believe Roose lied there. Nothing what Brienne or Jaime tell should be able to change her mind - unless she sees an advantage in letting him live for her revenge plan.

And thus we can be reasonably sure that Jaime's change of character in AFfC and ADwD was necessary there to make it believable that he could survive another meeting with Catelyn - which in itself should be a major blow to him. Reading the Jaime chapter in which Jaime is first presented to Catelyn should be scary as hell.

Brienne could remain as a POV with the Brotherhood while Jaime (eventually) returns to KL (or is sent to Storm's End accompanied by a retinue of the outlaws).

But then, the Brotherhood is not going to remain a small thing. With Brynden out there, the hints at

  Hide contents

what seems to be the topic of the Prologue,

as well as Tom as Cat's agent within Riverrun we have every reason to expect an broad uprising in the Riverlands soon, leading the destruction of the Lannister and Frey forces and garrisons there.

Yeah, that scene is going to be tough alright. Talk about a Meereen’s knot! Who's POV will we get? Jaime's? Brienne's? Catelyn's? Brandon's?