NBA 2016-2017 LeBron vs Durant ( and his little helpers)

[Jaime L]

3 hours ago, sperry said:

 

I've been saying it the whole offseason, but Bogut is really good. 

Well, when he plays. Dude was breaking down all of last season and becoming super unreliable. It's a definite loss - you can't replace what he does on the defensive end - but I get why the Warriors were willing to move on especially considering what they got in his place.

The other issue is that when Bogut goes on offense, it doesn't end well:

 

[briantw]

3 hours ago, sperry said:

I've been saying it the whole offseason, but Bogut is really good. 

They are really going to miss the half dozen open shots a game they got from his blatantly illegal screens that never got called.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Honestly, I still don't get it (the Durant move). They had built a monster pretty organically. I think they would've been better off looking for a less impactful free agent signing to replace Barnes, and holding onto Bogut and the bench pieces they lost. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, ya know? They seemed so much more vulnerable on the defensive end last night without that big man presence in the paint.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, sperry said:

 

I've been saying it the whole offseason, but Bogut is really good.  I don't think they seriously downgraded the roster by getting KD, which is why I never thought the move would happen when rumors started last year. Yeah, he's a great scorer, but for him to score he has to take shots away from Klay Thompson and Steph, which means they aren't improving in efficiency much. I still think they're really good and could win the title, but I don't think they're as good as last year, and I think they definitely left some glaring holes in their lineup.

How did they downgrade their roster at all? They aren't as deep as before, but their 8 man rotation is still better than everyone else's. And their starting lineup is significantly better. They just need some time to adjust to one another.

[Jaime L]

36 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Honestly, I still don't get it (the Durant move). They had built a monster pretty organically. I think they would've been better off looking for a less impactful free agent signing to replace Barnes, and holding onto Bogut and the bench pieces they lost. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, ya know? They seemed so much more vulnerable on the defensive end last night without that big man presence in the paint.

If this persists as a problem they can always get a big man at the trade deadline. Cleveland did and got hilarious local commercials ever since.

We're only one day into the season and already I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. People are actually asserting stealing the (conservatively) third best player on the planet from your biggest rival was somehow a bad move for the Warriors? I think by December Barnes and Bogut will have become retroactive Hall of Famers. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

42 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How did they downgrade their roster at all? They aren't as deep as before, but their 8 man rotation is still better than everyone else's. And their starting lineup is significantly better. They just need some time to adjust to one another.

They don't seem to have a viable big lineup. Seems the set they ran with last night was mostly Curry/Thompson/Green/Durant and Iguodala. It was nice to see some offense in the paint (which Durant clearly gives them, but they had no stopper inside at all. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Jaime L said:

If this persists as a problem they can always get a big man at the trade deadline. Cleveland did and got hilarious local commercials ever since.

We're only one day into the season and already I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. People are actually asserting stealing the (conservatively) third best player on the planet from your biggest rival was somehow a bad move for the Warriors? I think by December Barnes and Bogut will have become retroactive Hall of Famers. 

Yeah, I was saying that since before Durant announced his intentions, so I don't think I'm hitting the panic button here. I'm sure they'll be fine against normal competition, but getting beat by 30 at home by what is probably your biggest rival is kind of alarming. That and the manner in which they were beat. They never really threatened to take the lead in that entire game. I get that they will get better with time, but that was a bad loss.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

18 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

If this persists as a problem they can always get a big man at the trade deadline. Cleveland did and got hilarious local commercials ever since.

We're only one day into the season and already I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. People are actually asserting stealing the (conservatively) third best player on the planet from your biggest rival was somehow a bad move for the Warriors? I think by December Barnes and Bogut will have become retroactive Hall of Famers. 

This!

18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

They don't seem to have a viable big lineup. Seems the set they ran with last night was mostly Curry/Thompson/Green/Durant and Iguodala. It was nice to see some offense in the paint (which Durant clearly gives them, but they had no stopper inside at all. 

Give it time. They have a lot of different bigs they can try to rotate in. And who knows, maybe this is the year that Javale Mcgee finally puts it all together. 

Seriously though, Durant gives the Warriors something they've always lacked and really need, a wing that can attack the rim. Last year's final showed us what happens when all you do is take jump shots. 

[Jaime L]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I was saying that since before Durant announced his intentions, so I don't think I'm hitting the panic button here. I'm sure they'll be fine against normal competition, but getting beat by 30 at home by what is probably your biggest rival is kind of alarming. That and the manner in which they were beat. They never really threatened to take the lead in that entire game. I get that they will get better with time, but that was a bad loss.

I know, I thought it was crazy back then too.

Agreed, getting blown out at home by the Spurs is about as concerning as any opening game loss could be. I just don't think you can rest on your laurels in today's NBA. And I especially don't think you can count on Bogut playing a full season or making it through the playoffs. Or Barnes showing up when it matters. 

What was clear, to me, in the OKC/Cleveland series is that the best teams had finally caught up to the Warriors. They had each figured out small ball lineups as good as the lineup of death. You can find a guy who can be 80% of Bogut, you can't find anything close to Durant except for this once in a generation opportunity to get him. 

[KingintheNorth4]

It's gonna take time for Durant to adjust with his new teammates, but it looked like the Warriors were really the depth they had the past couple of seasons.

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

We're only one day into the season and already I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. People are actually asserting stealing the (conservatively) third best player on the planet from your biggest rival was somehow a bad move for the Warriors? I think by December Barnes and Bogut will have become retroactive Hall of Famers. 

Well, Barnes isn't the problem at all.  Everything Barnes does Durant does better, and often dramatically so.  Barnes wasn't going to resign for much less than the max, so really any griping about Barnes is just griping that eventually GSW has to pay their star players rather than always keep them on cheap contracts.  That is an utterly ridiculous complaint since GSW is benefitting from a confluence of unprecidented cap space and paying an MVP much less than max contract.

The problem is Bogut, and to a lesser extent Ezeli.  In 2014 and 2015 the Warriors had two centers they could rely on at least on the defensive end, which could grind the game out after the smallball Death Lineup took the lead with the NBA equivalent of the turbo button.  Livingston, Iguodala, and Ezeli plus any combination of the 5 starters is a very solid lineup for simultaneously holding the lead and resting the starters. 

Teams have been trying to get physical and grind down the Warriors for two years now.  Bogut, Ezeli and Green were the big guys standing in the way of that, and now two of them are gone.  Maybe Zaza and West have enough left in the tank to get it done, and they just need a little time.  That is certainly what I expect.  But it is also possible that this is just too many guys who need the ball, and not enough glue players like Iguodala and Livingston to do the little things you need to win. 

But the undeniable fact is that the lineup of death is both bigger and deadlier with Durant than it was with Barnes.

[Jaime L]

3 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Well, Barnes isn't the problem at all.  Everything Barnes does Durant does better, and often dramatically so.  Barnes wasn't going to resign for much less than the max, so really any griping about Barnes is just griping that eventually GSW has to pay their star players rather than always keep them on cheap contracts.  That is an utterly ridiculous complaint since GSW is benefitting from a confluence of unprecidented cap space and paying an MVP much less than max contract.

The problem is Bogut, and to a lesser extent Ezeli.  In 2014 and 2015 the Warriors had two centers they could rely on at least on the defensive end, which could grind the game out after the smallball Death Lineup took the lead with the NBA equivalent of the turbo button.  Livingston, Iguodala, and Ezeli plus any combination of the 5 starters is a very solid lineup for simultaneously holding the lead and resting the starters. 

Teams have been trying to get physical and grind down the Warriors for two years now.  Bogut, Ezeli and Green were the big guys standing in the way of that, and now two of them are gone.  Maybe Zaza and West have enough left in the tank to get it done, and they just need a little time.  That is certainly what I expect.  But it is also possible that this is just too many guys who need the ball, and not enough glue players like Iguodala and Livingston to do the little things you need to win. 

But the undeniable fact is that the lineup of death is both bigger and deadlier with Durant than it was with Barnes.

I mostly agree but two things:

1) I'd argue the presence of Durant should allow Curry to get more rest than ever if used properly.
2) Ezeli and Bogut were both breaking down. Ezeli's situation is particularly concerning.

They weren't going to have the same thing they had last year, regardless. And this gives them the chance to have something new and unstoppable. But yes, rim protection is priority 1. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Is it possible that the Warriors biggest loss was Walton? 

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

How did they downgrade their roster at all? They aren't as deep as before, but their 8 man rotation is still better than everyone else's. And their starting lineup is significantly better. They just need some time to adjust to one another.

Depth matters, though, especially during the grind of the regular season.  The Cavs struggled like hell two years ago prior to the trades for Mozgov, Smith, and Shumpert primarily because they lacked depth.  Guys on the Warriors are going to have to play a lot of minutes, and the question is how well they will hold up.  Curry isn't exactly an iron man, and Durant has some foot injury concerns that could pop back up.  Perhaps more importantly, wearing down guys in the regular season by being forced to play them huge minutes means they are more tired and injury-prone come the postseason.  Most guys aren't total freaks of nature like LeBron, who impossibly has played almost 200 playoff games without ever missing one due to injury (seriously...that's an absurd stat).  

Yeah, it's possible they can make a trade to improve their depth, but outside of Thompson and Green, they aren't exactly flush with tradeable assets.  David West looks done, Iggy is hobbled and past his prime, Pachulia won't bring in anything notable in return, and Varejao was probably the fifth best player for the Cavs in the 2016 Finals (which would have been great if he wasn't playing for the Warriors).  They also don't have a 2017 draft pick (at all...no first or second rounder), and they can't trade their 2018 first until after the 2017 draft, which means the earliest pick they can trade this season is their 2019 first.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Is it possible that the Warriors biggest loss was Walton? 

I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, it's significant. It sounds like Kerr still hasn't really recovered from his ailments, and Walton really was a stellar assistant.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Fez, thanks for linking that column. I have to check The Ringer more often, I cannot get enough of Simmons articles. Hands down, my favorite sports columni1st ever.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, briantw said:

Depth matters, though, especially during the grind of the regular season.  The Cavs struggled like hell two years ago prior to the trades for Mozgov, Smith, and Shumpert primarily because they lacked depth.  Guys on the Warriors are going to have to play a lot of minutes, and the question is how well they will hold up.  Curry isn't exactly an iron man, and Durant has some foot injury concerns that could pop back up.  Perhaps more importantly, wearing down guys in the regular season by being forced to play them huge minutes means they are more tired and injury-prone come the postseason.  Most guys aren't total freaks of nature like LeBron, who impossibly has played almost 200 playoff games without ever missing one due to injury (seriously...that's an absurd stat).  

Yeah, it's possible they can make a trade to improve their depth, but outside of Thompson and Green, they aren't exactly flush with tradeable assets.  David West looks done, Iggy is hobbled and past his prime, Pachulia won't bring in anything notable in return, and Varejao was probably the fifth best player for the Cavs in the 2016 Finals (which would have been great if he wasn't playing for the Warriors).  They also don't have a 2017 draft pick (at all...no first or second rounder), and they can't trade their 2018 first until after the 2017 draft, which means the earliest pick they can trade this season is their 2019 first.  

These are all fair and valid points. My only counterargument to your first paragraph is that it's easy to rest your starters if you're up by 30 going into the 4th every other game, which is a legit possibility for this team. And to your second paragraph, who knows how good their younger players on the bench can be? If one or two of them prove to be legit then the Warriors are fine. 

24 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, it's significant. It sounds like Kerr still hasn't really recovered from his ailments, and Walton really was a stellar assistant.

What I heard is that he struggles to concentrate for long periods of time. That's not good if you're a coach, and he was underwhelming last night. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Also, all we learned from last night was that super teams can lose by 29 points on opening night. 

[Ramsay B.]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Also, all we learned from last night was that super teams can lose by 29 points on opening night. 

Dude, October basketball means a lot.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, Jaime L said:

We're only one day into the season and already I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this thread. People are actually asserting stealing the (conservatively) third best player on the planet from your biggest rival was somehow a bad move for the Warriors? I think by December Barnes and Bogut will have become retroactive Hall of Famers. 

Stole the words out of my mouth. I knew I'd check the thread today and see Manhole's lamentations about breaking up the organically, loving team they had created in GS. Come on, it's one game and I respect the basketball IQ of this thread. Just calm down here guys.