Brandon Stark / Lady Dustin

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Shit happens.

Same could be told about Ned being the father and it would made more sense about how he became so idiot when it came to honor.

[KingMance]

Wouldn't it be pretty hard for a high born lady to hide a 9 month pregnancy from everyone? Wouldn't Brandon  (or Ned, as he's shown he's willing to do) take in his bastard if it did happen? 

This is a Littlefinger/Lysa situation imo. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

It's also common logic that a brother wouldn't had sex with his brother's crush.

Yep. But things can be complicated between brothers and there are few examples of it in ASOIAF like Stannis/Robert, Jaime/Tyrion, the Greyjoy brothers, let alone Sandor/Gregor. We know little about Ned and Brandon but there are some hints:

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

Besides that, Brandon had a tracked record of sleeping with women without thinking of consequences. And Barbrey Dustin is a bright example of it, but likely not the only one.

Quote

My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted.

This thread isn't about Ashara and her child. I'm just saying that Brandon is more likely to be the father of Ashara's baby than  the one of Dustin who aparently never existed. But if you want to tag me in an Ashara/Brandon thread I would jump in and we could talk about it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Yep. But things can be complicated between brothers and there are few examples of it in ASOIAF like Stannis/Robert, Jaime/Tyrion, the Greyjoy brothers, let alone Sandor/Gregor. We know little about Ned and Brandon but there are some hints:

Besides that, Brandon had a tracked record of sleeping with women without thinking of consequences. And Barbrey Dustin is a bright example of it, but likely not the only one.

This thread isn't about Ashara and her child. I'm just saying that Brandon is more likely to be the father of Ashara's baby than  the one of Dustin who aparently never existed. But if you want to tag me in an Ashara/Brandon thread I would jump in and we could talk about it.

So the fact that Brandon liked sex means that his an a@@ and had sex with the woman his brother liked even if we have no proof that he liked her at all?

[Bironic]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So the fact that Brandon liked sex means that his an a@@ and had sex with the woman his brother liked even if we have no proof that he liked her at all?

Ashara was very beautiful, we know of at least 2 people who had a crush on her (Barristan Selmy and Ned) it's quite likely that Brandon liked her as well.

Barristan Selmy in ADWD:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon
after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at
Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a
knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No
good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty,
might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan thinks that someone had dishonored Ashara, but he always speaks highly of Eddard and thinks he is honorable. No one speaks that way about a man who impregnated the woman you love. The whole thing of bedding a girl without thinking about the consequences doesn't sound like the Ned I know, but it sounds very much like something that Brandon would do.

From what we know of Brandon he has a lot in common with Robert Baratheon, and Bobby B bedded a cousin of Selyse during Stannis' wedding in their bed. I could imagine Brandon doing a similar thing. Not because he wanted to hurt Ned, but simply because he didn't care or knew about Ned's feelings for Ashara.

[Seams]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 8:30 AM, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Found it:

Quote

 

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

 

So you're right, he isn't that explicit about it, though he says it's possible. I think he hasn't really thought about it and it doesn't seem to be that important to the story.

I think the 'no sons' statement is meant to be taken as 'no legitimate sons', if you look at the context. He's speaking of the scarcity of Starks in the story, and that being due to Brandon dying without a son, among other things:

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It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either. 

These two quotes indicate, to me, that Brandon had no legitimate children, and that while he might have bastards (male or female) running around, these won't be important to the story.

If you re-read the part I emphasized in bold from that second GRRM quote, you might reach a different conclusion. What if it means exactly what it says, "Brandon died before he had sons." Or take out the clause in the middle and it reads, "Brandon had sons." If you make an equation, using the part emphasized in bold from the first GRRM quote, the sons (plural) belonging to Brandon (but born after he died) could very well have been "little Snows." It is fun to note that in the U.S., if we get a light snowfall, it is called "a dusting of snow." (Get it? Dusting / Dustin?) But we do know of two sons named Snow who have played key roles in ASOIAF, and whose paternity could be subject to doubt. Just saying.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

If you re-read the part I emphasized in bold from that second GRRM quote, you might reach a different conclusion. What if it means exactly what it says, "Brandon died before he had sons." Or take out the clause in the middle and it reads, "Brandon had sons." If you make an equation, using the part emphasized in bold from the first GRRM quote, the sons (plural) belonging to Brandon (but born after he died) could very well have been "little Snows." It is fun to note that in the U.S., if we get a light snowfall, it is called "a dusting of snow." (Get it? Dusting / Dustin?) But we do know of two sons named Snow who have played key roles in ASOIAF, and whose paternity could be subject to doubt. Just saying.

So... Jon AND Ramsay are Brandon's sons? Is that what you're saying?

[Seams]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

So... Jon AND Ramsay are Brandon's sons? Is that what you're saying?

Impossible? Preposterous? Game-changing?

I had always thought in terms of Ned's bones with their missing sword as Osiris and Catelyn as Isis with Bran as Horus and maybe Littlefinger as Set. But what if Brandon was Osiris, Lady Dustin is Isis and Jon Snow is Horus? Who would be Set?

Here's a quick summary of the myth:

 

Quote

 

Osiris and Set

Osiris was the first pharaoh, and Isis was his queen.  He ruled for many ages, and this was a time of order and balance and justice in the world.

Set was the brother of Osiris.  He became jealous of Osiris and wanted to take over the throne and rule the living world.  He built a box and used magic so that anyone who entered it would not be able to escape.  He tricked Osiris into climbing into the box.  Set filled the box with molten lead, killing Osiris, and then threw the box into the Nile River.

Set was a cruel Pharoah, and war divided Egypt during his reign. 

Isis refuses to give up

Isis mourned her lost husband and continued to search for the box that held his body.  When she found it, she brought it back to the house of the gods.  She spoke words over the dead body of Osiris, and magically became pregnant.  When her son Horus was born, she sent him away to be raised on an island where Set could not find him.

Working with Thoth, the god of wisdom and magic, Isis sought to bring Osiris back to life.  They created the Ritual of Life, a ceremony that ensures immortality in the afterlife, but were not able to perform the ritual before Set discovered Osiris’ body.  He tore his brother’s corpse into pieces and scattered them across the land.

Rebirth

Isis and her sister found each piece and brought it back to Thoth.  When all of the pieces were recovered, Thoth and Anubis, the conductor of souls in the underworld, sewed the pieces together and washed and embalmed Osiris’ body.  When they performed the ritual, Osiris was revived.  He could no longer live in the world of the living, however, so he became the ruler of the dead.

Set no longer felt threatened by Osiris, but he did not know that Isis and Thoth were helping Horus to prepare to fight his uncle for the throne.  After the two fought for many days, Horus emerged as the victor but he refused to kill Set.  The gods conferred and declare Horus the ruler.  Set was cast into darkness for all eternity.

 

[Pain killer Jane]

On 10/26/2016 at 3:48 PM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

Besides that, Brandon had a tracked record of sleeping with women without thinking of consequences. And Barbrey Dustin is a bright example of it, but likely not the only one.

Crackpot theory time: 

If Brandon had been with Ashara and I know there is a lot of speculation that Ashara is Dany's mother via X (name a person) than he is a father to queens.....

Unless Ned is the father of Ashara's child and that child is again Dany. 

So crackpot, I know. 

But anyway, I wonder how much time passed from the time Brandon stop seeing Lady Dustin to when she got married to Lord Dustin? 

And I think Ned would have acknowledged a noble bastard of his brother's. And another thing wouldn't Lord Ryswell demand a marriage to Brandon if his daughter were pregnant before he was officially married to Catlyn Tully? And then after Brandon died, I think he would have at least petitioned Ned to acknowledge a bastard from the affair between his daughter and his brother. Probably even use the extistence of Jon as leverage to acknowledge the child, if the child had been born before she married Lord Ryswell.  

[Curled Finger]

Lady Dustin is a strange one.   We can see her play Theon like a fiddle, but who is she really playing?   She knows Roose Bolton wants to keep her sweet, ie, on his side, and she's actually pretty bold and nasty to his face.   She seems to be fearless in a very scary set of circumstances.  She has Theon take her to the crypts under the auspices of seeing Brandon's statue?    She orders Theon to straighten Ramsay out about the Arya's unhappiness?  Theon?   She knows what Theon is and that he of all people, has no sway at all with Ramsay.  This is not a stupid woman.   She's running a game of her own here.   She's aware of at least a part of the GNC and is actively participating in a supervisory manner in seeming alliance with Roose Bolton, the father of her dead sister and nephew.   She demands custody of Arya (Jeyne) prior to the wedding?   Why?   Fat Walda must have handmaidens and know how to prepare a young Lady for a wedding.   I think the fact that Lady D never remarried speaks to her ambition more than her bitterness.    She is presumably still loyal to her father's family, the Ryswells, and still maintains the ultimate power over her dead husband's family, the Dustins.    I find this to be a very clever move on her part.   There may have been something real in the emotion she allows Theon to see but I think it's more likely all a carefully orchestrated act.   Barbary Dustin didn't just wake up a widow and decide to be ambitious.  She told Theon point blank that her father had designs on Ned when Brandon was promised to Cat.  Moreover, Lord Ryswell seemed to expect Barbary would marry a Stark.   Rickard's ambitions indeed.   Seems to me Lord Ryswell had the same intentions on a local level.   I wouldn't be surprised to find some sort of marriage agreement between the Ryswells and Starks at all.   And Barbary got the short end of that stick twice.   

So here's this powerful widow and this powerful widower both in opposition to the ruling house of their region in seeming cahoots even after the widower remarries a Southern lady?   I have to wonder why no marriage was ever at least proposed between Roose and Barbary?   Or should we be worrying a whole lot more for Fat Walda?   

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

Impossible? Preposterous? Game-changing?

I had always thought in terms of Ned's bones with their missing sword as Osiris and Catelyn as Isis with Bran as Horus and maybe Littlefinger as Set. But what if Brandon was Osiris, Lady Dustin is Isis and Jon Snow is Horus? Who would be Set?

Impossible? No. Preposterous? Kinda. Game-changing? It would be...

There is nothing to suggest Ramsay isn't really Roose's son, he has his eyes and all that (sure, the Starks have Brandon 'ice-eyes', but methinks we would've heard about it if Ned's brother'd had 'ice-eyes' as well). His personality also seems to be similar to Roose's minus the temper. They both see men as their playthings, they both like to hunt, they're both cruel and cunning. Roose just knows when to hold back, while Ramsay... doesn't.

And I'm not going to bore you with R+L=J, but that's what's convinced me.

BTW, are you also saying Lady Dustin is the mother to both Jon and Ramsay? Then how do you explain Jon being nursed at Starfall? How do you explain the age difference between him and Robb? And why is Ned so secretive about Jon's parentage? Why even say Jon is HIS bastard? And what about Lady Dustin? Why wouldn't she raise her own children? Maybe Jon was taken away by the Starks, but what about Ramsay? Why would the Starks even take only Jon?

[Ashes Of Westeros]

7 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Crackpot theory time: 

If Brandon had been with Ashara and I know there is a lot of speculation that Ashara is Dany's mother via X (name a person) than he is a father to queens.....

Unless Ned is the father of Ashara's child and that child is again Dany. 

So crackpot, I know.

Yeah, I heard these theories. For me Dany is Dany, daughter of Rhaella and Aerys. Or at least one of her parents is Targ.

[joluoto2]

On ‎26‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 6:11 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don’t see it in keeping with Ned’s character to disown his brother’s son, considering he pretty much risks death and compromises his reputation in order to protect his sister’s son.

 

That's an interesting idea, but she seems to despise Ramsay. 

Duh, Ramsay killed her nephew. Of course she hates him.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Impossible? No. Preposterous? Kinda. Game-changing? It would be...

There is nothing to suggest Ramsay isn't really Roose's son, he has his eyes and all that (sure, the Starks have Brandon 'ice-eyes', but methinks we would've heard about it if Ned's brother'd had 'ice-eyes' as well). His personality also seems to be similar to Roose's minus the temper. They both see men as their playthings, they both like to hunt, they're both cruel and cunning. Roose just knows when to hold back, while Ramsay... doesn't.

And I'm not going to bore you with R+L=J, but that's what's convinced me.

BTW, are you also saying Lady Dustin is the mother to both Jon and Ramsay? Then how do you explain Jon being nursed at Starfall? How do you explain the age difference between him and Robb? And why is Ned so secretive about Jon's parentage? Why even say Jon is HIS bastard? And what about Lady Dustin? Why wouldn't she raise her own children? Maybe Jon was taken away by the Starks, but what about Ramsay? Why would the Starks even take only Jon?

I realize this is a big departure from the forum's general beliefs. One of the things I like about fiction is that you can make predictions as you read. Many of the predictions won't pan out. GRRM certainly did a lot to convince readers that hair color and eyes are ironclad evidence of a child's paternity in Westeros. In the real world, however . . . It would be just like this author, in my opinion, to undermine that established expectation by giving us some descendants who don't fit the pattern. It would also be cool if the miller's wife pulled a fast one on Roose and got him on the hook for child support and for taking Ramsay off her hands when the kid turned out to be a sociopath. Payback's a b*tch, Roose.

I don't think Lady Dustin is the mother of Brandon's sons. At least, not any of the Snows we have already seen. If Brandon is the father, Ned may have claimed paternity of Jon to hide the affair (or rape) between Lyanna and Brandon. No one questions Lord Stark, so he knew the protection would be stronger if he said Jon was his own son. If there is a Brandon connection to Ramsay, the Starks may not have known about it, and he was low-born while Jon was high-born. Honestly, though, this is not a longstanding, thought-out theory. I have suspected Brandon as an alternate father to Jon (largely because I found R+L=J to be too obvious for an author who likes plot twists) but I didn't think about two "little Snows" until I saw the quotes you posted earlier.

Fiction is fun and good readers make predicitons. I don't feel the need to convince everyone of my point of view, or even my speculation du jour, so feel free to embrace R+L=J.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

19 minutes ago, joluoto2 said:

Duh, Ramsay killed her nephew. Of course she hates him.

Yes I'm aware of that, I'm responding to the suggestion that he might be her son, which seems unlikely given her animosity towards him. If he was her son, killing her nephew wouldn’t necessarily mean she wrote him off.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I realize this is a big departure from the forum's general beliefs. One of the things I like about fiction is that you can make predictions as you read. Many of the predictions won't pan out. GRRM certainly did a lot to convince readers that hair color and eyes are ironclad evidence of a child's paternity in Westeros. In the real world, however . . . It would be just like this author, in my opinion, to undermine that established expectation by giving us some descendants who don't fit the pattern. It would also be cool if the miller's wife pulled a fast one on Roose and got him on the hook for child support and for taking Ramsay off her hands when the kid turned out to be a sociopath. Payback's a b*tch, Roose.

I don't think Lady Dustin is the mother of Brandon's sons. At least, not any of the Snows we have already seen. If Brandon is the father, Ned may have claimed paternity of Jon to hide the affair (or rape) between Lyanna and Brandon. No one questions Lord Stark, so he knew the protection would be stronger if he said Jon was his own son. If there is a Brandon connection to Ramsay, the Starks may not have known about it, and he was low-born while Jon was high-born. Honestly, though, this is not a longstanding, thought-out theory. I have suspected Brandon as an alternate father to Jon (largely because I found R+L=J to be too obvious for an author who likes plot twists) but I didn't think about two "little Snows" until I saw the quotes you posted earlier.

Fiction is fun and good readers make predicitons. I don't feel the need to convince everyone of my point of view, or even my speculation du jour, so feel free to embrace R+L=J.

WOW, more incest! I thought you'd be going for Brandon and Ashara, since there is stuff in the books pointing to those two ("she looked to Stark"). Of course, the obviousness of R+L=J could point to it being a red herring, but after the build-up it's had that feels a bit cheap to me.

Show spoilers:

Spoiler

Besides this, in season 6 the show already comfirmed R+L=J, and since it was the question asked by GRRM to determine whether D&D should be allowed to adapt the series, I don't think this was changed from the books. 

Ramsay I still don't see working out. Of course, the obscure ice-eyes gene which is in the Stark family tree could have popped up again, but for him to be coincidentally similar to Roose in all the other ways I've mentioned seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Maybe there are other characters who could fit your Egyptian theory. Have you thought about Dany? If R+L=J is true, she and Jon would be aunt and nephew, which is the same relationship Horus and Set have (uncle instead of aunt, of course). Set could also be one of the other Stark kids (maybe Bran if the CotF aren't magical self-sacrificing fairies who just want to save the world). I'm not really familiar with Ancient Egyptian Gods, so I don't know if their character traits or stories fit, though.

[Pain killer Jane]

7 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Yeah, I heard these theories. For me Dany is Dany, daughter of Rhaella and Aerys. Or at least one of her parents is Targ.

yeah I am in that camp as well but it is nice to speculate on that train of thought. The parallel of hidden identities for me is Jon vs. Aegon VI. 

I have another crackpot theory; Sweet Robin is Littlefinger's son. 

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I have suspected Brandon as an alternate father to Jon (largely because I found R+L=J to be too obvious for an author who likes plot twists) but I didn't think about two "little Snows" until I saw the quotes you posted earlier.

I have as well speculated on that part. I always wondered if Brandon also knew that Lyanna liked swordplay (I couldn't resist that).  

1 hour ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Show spoilers:

1 hour ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Spoiler

Besides this, in season 6 the show already comfirmed R+L=J, and since it was the question asked by GRRM to determine whether D&D should be allowed to adapt the series, I don't think this was changed from the books. 

 

 

Spoiler

I thought the specific question was about who was Jon's mother? Not the father. I know semantics and a bit of logic and a lot of people have used that as a way to speculate alternate fathers other than Rheagar for Jon.

Anyway back to Lady Dustin and Brandon perhaps her story mirrors Lysa and Littlefinger and why she hates the grey rats so much in conjunction to Lord Rickard. Just like Lysa, the maester could have been the one to feed her moontea. But from her own lips, Lord Ryswell consented to the affair in hopes of getting a supremely advantageous marriage for his daughter. If this had gone through, any children of Barbrey and Brandon would have been first cousins with Domeric Bolton. So we know that Lord Ryswell would not have consented to the abortion like Lord Hoster.  So the maester if the Illuminati Maesters/Southern Ambitions was actually real, could have conspired with the maester of Winterfell to keep the plan for Brandon to marry Catlyn on track and not have Lady Dustin and her father mess things up for them. Could explain her paranoia of the maesters. And thus they sacrificed unity in the North for unity in the realm. 

This would also parallel what Lady Sybell did to her own daughter, Jeyne. 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

2 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

yeah I am in that camp as well but it is nice to speculate on that train of thought. The parallel of hidden identities for me is Jon vs. Aegon VI. 

I have another crackpot theory; Sweet Robin is Littlefinger's son. 

I have as well speculated on that part. I always wondered if Brandon also knew that Lyanna liked swordplay (I couldn't resist that).  

  Hide contents

I thought the specific question was about who was Jon's mother? Not the father. I know semantics and a bit of logic and a lot of people have used that as a way to speculate alternate fathers other than Rheagar for Jon.

Anyway back to Lady Dustin and Brandon perhaps her story mirrors Lysa and Littlefinger and why she hates the grey rats so much in conjunction to Lord Rickard. Just like Lysa, the maester could have been the one to feed her moontea. But from her own lips, Lord Ryswell consented to the affair in hopes of getting a supremely advantageous marriage for his daughter. If this had gone through, any children of Barbrey and Brandon would have been first cousins with Domeric Bolton. So we know that Lord Ryswell would not have consented to the abortion like Lord Hoster.  So the maester if the Illuminati Maesters/Southern Ambitions was actually real, could have conspired with the maester of Winterfell to keep the plan for Brandon to marry Catlyn on track and not have Lady Dustin and her father mess things up for them. Could explain her paranoia of the maesters. And thus they sacrificed unity in the North for unity in the realm. 

This would also parallel what Lady Sybell did to her own daughter, Jeyne. 

Spoiler

Yeah, in the show they're not clear on who the father is, leading some of my friends to believe Jon was the child of Ned and Lyanna  .

But HBO did put out an image showing the relations between the Targs and the Starks, indicating that Rhaegar was indeed Jon's father:

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dUTxGijjCUzm9ynRTltOIrSGL5o=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6724595/download.0.png

I really like the theory that Sweetrobin is Littlefinger's son, just don't know if there's a lot of evidence for it. Obviously, LF and Lysa have been doing it over the years (LF needed to give Lysa a reason to keep him close after all) and SR is also described as small for his age (though that might be because of his sickly nature), but I don't know if there are any other similarities between LF and SR.

[King Ned Stark]

I think Brandon is greatly misunderstood by a large portion of the the readers, and quite possibly that was Martin's intent.

[John Suburbs]

I don't buy Lady Dustin's supposed hatred of the Starks one bit. I think she is playing Theon, and thus Ramsey and Roose. She is part of the GNC to put a Stark back in Winterfell.