HBO's Westworld(v4)- What door? [spoilers]

[Theda Baratheon]

41 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Welcome back Theodore.  Yeah!

The moment was out of place, but the whole thing, doesn't hang together.  What in the hell is the maze going to do for him now that he sees that Westworld has basically ruined his life, that his black hat antics have bled into his life...which to makes sense, if you spent all of your vacations causing "simulated" injury to robots who look and act 99% like real humans, how could that not have an impact?  But, what's the maze going to do for him?  I ruined my life, so now I'm all in for one last game?  Dunno.  We'll see how it continues to play out, but a clumsy reveal so far.

It's also going to take some doing for me to buy William going full dark, since according to MiB he wasn't on a quest to wake up the hosts until a year ago.  So whatever happens w/Delores, is going to basically totally change his personality, thats going to be a stretch for me to believe.

I'm still totally against William = MiB lmao. I think I might be one of the last few now, but I just don't want it to be the case. 

[Ded As Ned]

@Theda Baratheon  I'm with you too. 

[Theda Baratheon]

36 minutes ago, red snow said:

It's an episode I probably need to watch again as it seemed there was a lot going on. I mean, we saw MiB have his throat slit which is hard to square away unless Maeve/he imagined it? That or as we saw in this episode, a slit throat is easy to patch up.

The Delores stuff was very confusing. Is it possibly she's now imagining/remembering her interaction with William? Otherwise he seemed odd and the whole church there/not there thing. It's crazy that the suggestion that Delores isn't Wyatt isn't crazy. But that shit with her in the town seemed very similar to Teddy's memories of Wyatt on a killing spree.

I really think William not being MiB would be a let down at this point. A bit like how the alt theory that the Matrix sequels were still set within the Matrix all the time was better than the reality. I think it's Cas Stark who says the creators have been "too cute" in misleading us if William is MiB though.

I guess I just need to ride out the next couple of episodes.

For Dolores, she's just remembering and those memories are conflicting with her present. As Felix said Hosts memories aren't fuzzy like Humans, they're perfectly crystal clear, so it would confuse and frighten anyone to suddenly be seized my memories of a place that are taking over from your present. 

That's how I viewed it anyway.

I still don't think it would be a let down if William wasn't MiB. I really don't even know why i'm so against the theory, I'm just really not into it at all and i'm still hoping it's not true, but I know i'm one of the only ones who feels that way. 

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

@Theda Baratheon  I'm with you too. 

I just think they're two fundamentally different characters. I know 30 years can change someone a lot, but I hate the idea of a generally good guy like William coming to Westworld every year for 30 years to be a total evil prick...and for what ???? I don't know. To be honest, there probably is enough evidence and clues in the show that they've set up this ''reveal'' (if it is true) to make total sense and I shouldn't dislike it so much because there are plenty of little hints here and there and it would make sense, but i'm just not feeling it...how could he be in love with Dolores and then years later hurt her ?? 

[Ded As Ned]

10 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I just think they're two fundamentally different characters. I know 30 years can change someone a lot, but I hate the idea of a generally good guy like William coming to Westworld every year for 30 years to be a total evil prick...and for what ???? I don't know. To be honest, there probably is enough evidence and clues in the show that they've set up this ''reveal'' (if it is true) to make total sense and I shouldn't dislike it so much because there are plenty of little hints here and there and it would make sense, but i'm just not feeling it...how could he be in love with Dolores and then years later hurt her ?? 

I'm thinking it's probably going to turn out to be true, but I'd just rather them be two different people.

If true, I could see it playing out a few different ways, but they are basically the same premise.  William finally feels truly alive and in love with Dolores and all that, and she ends up getting killed and her memory wiped, then goes back to being the same old Dolores that doesn't even know him... William realizes it was all a sham (or believes it was).  MiB is born.

[Free Northman Reborn]

32 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

I'm thinking it's probably going to turn out to be true, but I'd just rather them be two different people.

If true, I could see it playing out a few different ways, but they are basically the same premise.  William finally feels truly alive and in love with Dolores and all that, and she ends up getting killed and her memory wiped, then goes back to being the same old Dolores that doesn't even know him... William realizes it was all a sham (or believes it was).  MiB is born.

I'm thinking the MIB will turn out to be on a just quest. Let's say he is William, and he was with Delores when she first tried to break free from her loop. The culmination of the quest is Delores finally freeing herself after meeting Arnold during the "breakdown of the Park that happened 30 years ago". And then she is killed, dying in William's arms. Her last request to him is to free her and all the hosts, once and for all.

So, when he returns to the Park, he finds Delores recreated, but back in her loop. And he has learnt that the only way to free her, is through trauma. So for the next 30 years he keeps trying to fulfill this duty to Delores.

He knows that all the cruelties he commits are meaningless, as the robots will just be reborn again in their loops, but if he succeeds in helping them achieve free will, it will all have been worth it.

[Ded As Ned]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm thinking the MIB will turn out to be on a just quest. Let's say he is William, and he was with Delores when she first tried to break free from her loop. The culmination of the quest is Delores finally freeing herself after meeting Arnold during the "breakdown of the Park that happened 30 years ago". And then she is killed, dying in William's arms. Her last request to him is to free her and all the hosts, once and for all.

So, when he returns to the Park, he finds Delores recreated, but back in her loop. And he has learnt that the only way to free her, is through trauma. So for the next 30 years he keeps trying to fulfill this duty to Delores.

He knows that all the cruelties he commits are meaningless, as the robots will just be reborn again in their loops, but if he succeeds in helping them achieve free will, it will all have been worth it.

I really like this, but does it fit with his real-world actions with his wife and such... and the rest of his exposition on his reasons for killing Maeve and all that?

[RumHam]

35 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm thinking the MIB will turn out to be on a just quest. Let's say he is William, and he was with Delores when she first tried to break free from her loop. The culmination of the quest is Delores finally freeing herself after meeting Arnold during the "breakdown of the Park that happened 30 years ago". And then she is killed, dying in William's arms. Her last request to him is to free her and all the hosts, once and for all.

So, when he returns to the Park, he finds Delores recreated, but back in her loop. And he has learnt that the only way to free her, is through trauma. So for the next 30 years he keeps trying to fulfill this duty to Delores.

He knows that all the cruelties he commits are meaningless, as the robots will just be reborn again in their loops, but if he succeeds in helping them achieve free will, it will all have been worth it.

I don't think this is the case. It seems to me that for most of that time he was filling what he saw as a void in the park by being a villain. Then he had the incident with Maeve the year before and since then has been trying to awaken Dolores and the others via the maze. 

Edit: Hey does anyone know if Jimmi Simpson is coming back for season two? It wouldn't prove anything either way, but I'm inclined to think that if William is the Man In Black he probably wouldn't. They'd do the reveal and show the incident at the end of this season and then probably only have the one timeline next season with Ed Harris playing the character. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

34 minutes ago, Ded As Ned said:

I really like this, but does it fit with his real-world actions with his wife and such... and the rest of his exposition on his reasons for killing Maeve and all that?

 

19 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I don't think this is the case. It seems to me that for most of that time he was filling what he saw as a void in the park by being a villain. Then he had the incident with Maeve the year before and since then has been trying to awaken Dolores and the others via the maze. 

Edit: Hey does anyone know if Jimmi Simpson is coming back for season two? It wouldn't prove anything either way, but I'm inclined to think that if William is the Man In Black he probably wouldn't. They'd do the reveal and show the incident at the end of this season and then probably only have the one timeline next season with Ed Harris playing the character. 

Well it would tie in with the weird feeling many of us got around his reveal in the last episode, which felt too open and too quick. If he was using a cover story, for the sake of any of the Park's creators who might be listening in, it would not only cover his own true motivations, but similarly cover Maeve, Delores and any other hosts he may have helped along the road to self discovery over the years.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Ded As Ned said:

I'm thinking it's probably going to turn out to be true, but I'd just rather them be two different people.

If true, I could see it playing out a few different ways, but they are basically the same premise.  William finally feels truly alive and in love with Dolores and all that, and she ends up getting killed and her memory wiped, then goes back to being the same old Dolores that doesn't even know him... William realizes it was all a sham (or believes it was).  MiB is born.

A lot of people have theorised that but it just seems so weak. Dolores doesn't love him anymore so he turns evil and horrible for the rest of his life ahhh I don't know 

[Theda Baratheon]

Plus I really like Jimmi Simpson, he great if he was playing his own character and not a flashback version of another. 

It might be revealed and I end up loving it though so who knows I won't go on about it lmao 

[Winterfell is Burning]

7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A lot of people have theorised that but it just seems so weak. Dolores doesn't love him anymore so he turns evil and horrible for the rest of his life ahhh I don't know 

Yes, that's ridiculous. And "he realizes it's all a sham"? What is "all"? Why come back to Westworld then if it's a sham?

Again, there's nothing on the screen so far that indicates that MiB has any special concern, interest or care for Dolores. Nothing.

 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yes, that's ridiculous. And "he realizes it's all a sham"? What is "all"? Why come back to Westworld then if it's a sham?

Again, there's nothing on the screen so far that indicates that MiB has any special concern, interest or care for Dolores. Nothing.

 

 

There's that one throwaway comment about an old friend and Dolores catchphrase lmao but that's it and it wasn't even said with that much fondness. 

But yeah it's very weak and there really isn't enough hints that he's connected to Dolores. He does mention teddy a lot though lmao 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm thinking the MIB will turn out to be on a just quest. Let's say he is William, and he was with Delores when she first tried to break free from her loop. The culmination of the quest is Delores finally freeing herself after meeting Arnold during the "breakdown of the Park that happened 30 years ago". And then she is killed, dying in William's arms. Her last request to him is to free her and all the hosts, once and for all.

So, when he returns to the Park, he finds Delores recreated, but back in her loop. And he has learnt that the only way to free her, is through trauma. So for the next 30 years he keeps trying to fulfill this duty to Delores.

He knows that all the cruelties he commits are meaningless, as the robots will just be reborn again in their loops, but if he succeeds in helping them achieve free will, it will all have been worth it.

That isn't how he explains things to Teddy, though.  He says that his antics in Westworld caused his wife and daughter to be afraid of him...that the 'wall' he thought he built didn't exist, and when he realizes this...he goes back to find out, I guess if he's as dark as they thought he was and kills Maeve and her daughter...he sees Maeve move to a different level of awareness and so this starts him on his quest.  Nothing about Delores, or loss or any emotional connection to the park at all.

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That isn't how he explains things to Teddy, though.  He says that his antics in Westworld caused his wife and daughter to be afraid of him...that the 'wall' he thought he built didn't exist, and when he realizes this...he goes back to find out, I guess if he's as dark as they thought he was and kills Maeve and her daughter...he sees Maeve move to a different level of awareness and so this starts him on his quest.  Nothing about Delores, or loss or any emotional connection to the park at all.

This is exactly why I don't think he's William. His whole backstory doesn't mention Dolores at all. William is in love with her. He's never felt that way about her. Do people ever forget someone like that? No but I don't think that's enough for one person to just go ON SHE DOESN'T LOVE ME ANYMORE I'M GOING TO KILL EEEYONE lol 

[RumHam]

15 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

A lot of people have theorised that but it just seems so weak. Dolores doesn't love him anymore so he turns evil and horrible for the rest of his life ahhh I don't know 

I think it'd be more like he realizes she was never capable of loving him and is just a robot. That would be a punch in the gut, but I don't think it drives him to "turn evil." Rather I think since he had so much fun in the park/it made him feel alive and the hosts are all just robots anyway why not keep going back and having more fun killing them? Then he realizes after his wife's death that his violent acts against these fake people have affected his personality in the real world. Then he see's something in Maeve that makes him think the hosts do have the potential to be truly alive and sets out on his suicide mission.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

35 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

This is exactly why I don't think he's William. His whole backstory doesn't mention Dolores at all. William is in love with her. He's never felt that way about her. Do people ever forget someone like that? No but I don't think that's enough for one person to just go ON SHE DOESN'T LOVE ME ANYMORE I'M GOING TO KILL EEEYONE lol 

I think the way he treats Delores early on in the season is a big signal its not William. William loves her, MIB seems completely indifferent to her. At the very least he would show some sort of emotion after seeing her. I mean I'm not discounting the theory, lots of people are picking up on it, but you'd think MIB would behave a bit differently to the way he did around her after their history together. 


edit: ok I take it back, rewatched the first episode. 'After all we've been through, you still don;t remember me'. 

Seem like the fact she doesn't remember him and that his love with her wasn't really might have made him retreat into himself. Whereas the first time he entered the park as William, it was so he could lose himself in the idea, now he wants his revenge on whoever made the park. 

Well its likely he will find out about the Labyrinth through his original journey with Delores.

[Cas Stark]

34 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I think it'd be more like he realizes she was never capable of loving him and is just a robot. That would be a punch in the gut, but I don't think it drives him to "turn evil." Rather I think since he had so much fun in the park/it made him feel alive and the hosts are all just robots anyway why not keep going back and having more fun killing them? Then he realizes after his wife's death that his violent acts against these fake people have affected his personality in the real world. Then he see's something in Maeve that makes him think the hosts do have the potential to be truly alive and sets out on his suicide mission.

It's weak.  In the park so far, he is not evil, he has not enjoyed randomly killing the robots like his BIL and others in the park, he sees himself as a good guy and wants to be a good guy, despite that he did just kill the dying man by the river....but if that is supposed to be him turning evil: weak. Something truly, seriously traumatic well beyond "I thought that robot chick was more real than she was" to turn William into a person whose decades of behavior are so dark, so sadistic, so obsessive [and obsessive w/out trying to 'wake up" Delores again] that it drives his own family to hate and fear him.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

54 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That isn't how he explains things to Teddy, though.  He says that his antics in Westworld caused his wife and daughter to be afraid of him...that the 'wall' he thought he built didn't exist, and when he realizes this...he goes back to find out, I guess if he's as dark as they thought he was and kills Maeve and her daughter...he sees Maeve move to a different level of awareness and so this starts him on his quest.  Nothing about Delores, or loss or any emotional connection to the park at all.

I'm saying his entire monologue to Teddy is a cover story, because he doesn't want to give away his true purpose to possible agents of Ford.

[Fragile Bird]

I will repeat what I said before, sociopaths are born, not made in adulthood, which is why I wonder if Logan, not William, is the MiB. I realize that one of the major tie-ins is the fact they both picked up the can of condensed milk, except in his timeline the MiB says to Delores, not this trip, he has other things to do. He's been doing things to Delores for 30 years, and that to me also suggests Logan, doing an annual revenge, and hence the comment that after 30 years she still doesn't remember him. Maybe it's William who dies in the park in a Logan led massacre, and then Delores kills herself, which would fit.

And again, everyone says William killed the young soldier. How??? There's no gunshot and we do not see, even for a moment, William leaning over or doing something to the kid when Delores glances back at him.  Being a GoT fan, when they first came across him I thought to myself, give him the gift of mercy, and I was waiting for William to do something.  But he didn't. It's all the power of suggestion.