Crazy solution for why Jaqen was in the Black Cells

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

For what it's worth.

CoK:

 

That quote about the Red God getting his due is what made me think of it.  I frankly doubt, due to the POV structure, we will get a reliable answer, though.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

28 minutes ago, Nevets said:

That quote about the Red God getting his due is what made me think of it.  I frankly doubt, due to the POV structure, we will get a reliable answer, though.

I agree, but we can hope! 

[Damon_Tor]

On 12/1/2016 at 4:24 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I have no idea what his original mission was but as Ferocious Veldt Roarer pointed out there is no reason not to simply go to the wall, they are desperate for men and would love a volunteer who was not a criminal.

Because he doesn't have to fool the Night's Watch. He has to fool Bloodraven. Assuming Bloodraven is his target, it's reasonable to assume he has adequate intelligence on who he is and what he can do, which means eyes are potentially on him at any given moment. The number of people who join willingly are small, and they tend to be from Northern houses with a tradition of doing so, which mean known individuals, individuals who have lived their lives around weirwoods, praying to them. Would it be possible for a Faceless Man to simply take the face of an appropriate northerner? Maybe, but the mission to take that face presents another chance of exposure, a chance that a raven (or ANYTHING really) will see it happen, and then the whole thing is over. And I wonder how well even the more advanced Faceless Man "glamours" (or whatever is happening) will work to fool someone like Bloodraven; some guy shows up claiming to be Gwain Glover here to join the Watch and Bloodraven can play back every prayer session Gwain had ever had in front of a Weirwood to make sure he's 100% the same guy.

There's a similar objection to him just hoping on a boat and landing on the shore north of the wall: Bloodraven would see him coming, and I doubt the Faceless Men know exactly where he's located, which means they'll have to spend some time looking for him. Joining the Night's Watch is critical because Rangers of the Night's Watch ride around North of the Wall looking for stuff all the time. It's a perfect cover.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 03/12/2016 at 4:26 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

For what it's worth.

CoK:

“The Red God has his due, sweet girl,...

This quote has always bothered me.

I would say the FM are priests or servants of Death. The kindly man and Arya in AFfC:

[KM]...Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shared in common."
[Arya]"Him of Many Faces."
[KM]And many names," the kindly man had said. "In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him ...

Jaqen's quote suggests the "Red God" is one of these names. Another manifestation of Death. I'm not sure. Because of TWoIaF references to the Long Night, I would rather associate the Great Other with the Lion of Night and Death. As R'hllor is opposing the Others, I don't see how it can fit. Maybe Jaqen reference to the "Red God" (and not R'hllor) is only meant to say the men should have died by fire. Maybe, for Jaqen, R'hllor is also a Face of Death. But it is not the God he serves, as would do a Red Priest.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This quote has always bothered me.

I would say the FM are priests or servants of Death. The kindly man and Arya in AFfC:

[KM]...Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shared in common."
[Arya]"Him of Many Faces."
[KM]And many names," the kindly man had said. "In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him ...

Jaqen's quote suggests the "Red God" is one of these names. Another manifestation of Death. I'm not sure. Because of TWoIaF references to the Long Night, I would rather associate the Great Other with the Lion of Night and Death. As R'hllor is opposing the Others, I don't see how it can fit. Maybe Jaqen reference to the "Red God" (and not R'hllor) is only meant to say the men should have died by fire. Maybe, for Jaqen, R'hllor is also a Face of Death. But it is not the God he serves, as would do a Red Priest.

The three men were about to be burned to death. The flames could taste the flesh. Consider a man dying before a heart tree, bleeding to death. How would blood raven like it if some dude came along and took the dying man after just a flew drops of blood had spilled? Same thing. R'hllor was hungry, and Arya denied him his supper. The faceless man, grateful to Arya, but concerned for the red god's wrath paid her debt. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Because he doesn't have to fool the Night's Watch. He has to fool Bloodraven. Assuming Bloodraven is his target, it's reasonable to assume he has adequate intelligence on who he is and what he can do, which means eyes are potentially on him at any given moment. The number of people who join willingly are small, and they tend to be from Northern houses with a tradition of doing so, which mean known individuals, individuals who have lived their lives around weirwoods, praying to them.

Apart from the criminals, Yoren took with him plenty of other recruits. Orphans with no good prospects in life, like Lommy, Hot Pie or Tarber. Praed the sick sellsword, Cutjack the mason, Woth the galley hand, Reysen the... old fella we know nothing else about, and Qyle, whom we wish we knew as well as we do Reysen.

Jaqen h'Ghar could've easily manufactured a legend that would fit right in. No need to attract attention as a criminal so dangerous that he needs to be locked in a cage and under close watch.

(And if his contract was Bloodraven, then why is Bloodraven still alive, and Jaqen back south, working in Oldtown?)

[BalerionTheCat]

20 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

No need to attract attention as a criminal so dangerous that he needs to be locked in a cage and under close watch.

Exactly. And...

IF, big IF, the FM purpose is to kill BR. I don't see how joining the NW will help. I don't see BR welcoming soon a party of Black Brothers in his cavern. Even before Old Mormon's death. If the FM want to kill BR, their best chance is thru the Stark children, like Arya. But why would Arya kill her brother's tutor?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The three men were about to be burned to death. The flames could taste the flesh. Consider a man dying before a heart tree, bleeding to death. How would blood raven like it if some dude came along and took the dying man after just a flew drops of blood had spilled? Same thing. R'hllor was hungry, and Arya denied him his supper. The faceless man, grateful to Arya, but concerned for the red god's wrath paid her debt. 

This makes sense. The above quote from JH has always bothered me as well. Thanks for clearing this up for me!

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The three men were about to be burned to death. The flames could taste the flesh. Consider a man dying before a heart tree, bleeding to death. How would blood raven like it if some dude came along and took the dying man after just a flew drops of blood had spilled? Same thing. R'hllor was hungry, and Arya denied him his supper. The faceless man, grateful to Arya, but concerned for the red god's wrath paid her debt. 

Jaqen did his job in giving back what Arya had stolen. But it is the relation between "Red God" and "Death God" I still question. Probably no more than what you said. In any case I see it more an accident than a sacrifice. There was no dedication to a god.

The human sacrifices are also bothering me. In our world, in history or now, abstractly or not, it is always wrong, even with criminals.
Such sacrifices are common with R'hllor and Blood Magic. So it gives me where they stand. But there is also one such sacrifice in Bran's visions,  for the Old Gods. So I'm wondering if they are much better. Or if sacrifices have moral significance in ASoIaF, something I would care for.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The three men were about to be burned to death. The flames could taste the flesh. Consider a man dying before a heart tree, bleeding to death. How would blood raven like it if some dude came along and took the dying man after just a flew drops of blood had spilled? Same thing. R'hllor was hungry, and Arya denied him his supper. The faceless man, grateful to Arya, but concerned for the red god's wrath paid her debt. 

Thought of something. 

The quote again: 

Quote

“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”

“Three?”

“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”

If JH was concerned with fulfilling the Red God's "hunger" wouldn't he have needed to kill the three by burning them?

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Thought of something. 

The quote again: 

If JH was concerned with fulfilling the Red God's "hunger" wouldn't he have needed to kill the three by burning them?

Well, we gotta give the author some license, no? 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

His job was to  kill Robert and implicate the Lannisters  on the eve of the Targaryen/Dorathi invasion . But his mission isn't over ,now he must take the place of the new Maester .

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Thought of something. 

The quote again: 

If JH was concerned with fulfilling the Red God's "hunger" wouldn't he have needed to kill the three by burning them?

But aren't they all just one and the same - the Many-Faced God?

[sweetsunray]

47 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

But aren't they all just one and the same - the Many-Faced God?

To the FM they are, yes. The weird thing is that FM seems to regard Rh'llor as an aspect or a face of the god of death, while Rh'llorists themselves think their god is the god of life and his enemy the god of death. It's probably the same with the Black Goat. Thsoe who revere the Black Goat in Qohor probably regard him as more than a god of death alone, but to the FM he's an aspect of the god of death. In contrast, the FM don't mistake Mother/Father/Maiden/Warrior/Smith/Crone with the god of death. They only have the Stranger in the HoBaW of the Faith of 7 for anyone praying for someone's death.

So, clearly the FM have their own interpretation of a god's purpose than its own worshippers, especially when it comes to more monotheistic or duotheistic religions. Since a polytheistic religion such as the 7 already identifies several aspects/faces to their one god, the FM can pick just the aspect representative of death for any Westerosi praying for death, while they can't for a Rh'llorist.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

His job was to  kill Robert and implicate the Lannisters  on the eve of the Targaryen/Dorathi invasion . But his mission isn't over ,now he must take the place of the new Maester .

If his mark were Robert, the most likely contracting parties were Cersei or Varys/Illyrio. Cersei would not have bothered with the strong wine if it had been her, and I don't believe she would have been able to arrange, or pay, for the contract without drawing notice. Illyrio and Varys were not ready to move against Robert yet, as evidenced by Illyrio comanding his King's Landing agent extrordinaire to delay the Stark-Lannister conflict. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, we gotta give the author some license, no? 

Absolutely. I was just wondering if there was an answer for this which I didn't see.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Absolutely. I was just wondering if there was an answer for this which I didn't see.

It is a good question.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

But aren't they all just one and the same - the Many-Faced God?

Yes. It is just interesting that JH singles out the Red God needing his due here. This is probably because the 3 were going to be burned. 

Quote

All morning she watched the Bloody Mummers strip the dead of their valuables and drag the corpses to the Flowstone Yard, where a pyre was laid to dispose of them. Shagwell the Fool hacked the heads off two dead knights and pranced about the castle swinging them by the hair and making them talk. “What did you die of?” one head asked. “Hot weasel soup,” replied the second.

The corpses from when Arya freed the northmen were eventually burned. Obviously not burned alive though...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oops. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Lost Melnibonean

My quote was referring to Amory's guards in Harrenhal. These corpses were burned.