Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I guess I could go for a red herring, but at a cliffhanger like this, that would seem cheapish and that doesn't seem to be George's thing. I would think in a case like this a general theme would be better, not a whole word switch (that has to do with a prophecy). To be even clearer: I don't think it's a red herring in the sense that some other instance will fulfil the prophecy, therefore it's fake in this instance. I think there will never be a definitive fulfilling of these prophecies; it'll be left vague, and people will be arguing about whether it was Dany or Jon or Moonboy for all I know long after the series is finished. And it won't really matter, plot-wise. At least, I hope so. If it turns out that somebody really is the Chosen One, and it's all as simple as waiting for the right prophetic triggers to be met, well, that's kind of lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Just now, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: In this instance, "smoking" is (1) a poetic image describing the condensed air from Jon's wounds, and (2) a red herring re: Azor Ahai. I'll have to reread it with that in mind, because it still feels to like those two words are too different to be used interchangeably because they are different catalyst/ignition sources with different results, but that is probably just me, which happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: To be even clearer: I don't think it's a red herring in the sense that some other instance will fulfil the prophecy, therefore it's fake in this instance. I think there will never be a definitive fulfilling of these prophecies; it'll be left vague, and people will be arguing about whether it was Dany or Jon or Moonboy for all I know long after the series is finished. And it won't really matter, plot-wise. At least, I hope so. If it turns out that somebody really is the Chosen One, and it's all as simple as waiting for the right prophetic triggers to be met, well, that's kind of lame. Kinda like how people see Ser Patrek as the "red star bleeding", yet many others see that as Mel when she sees Bloodraven in her fires and then bleeds? Or the red star bleeding in the sky?? Which one is it??? Or is it all of them????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Kinda like how people see Ser Patrek as the "red star bleeding", yet many others see that as Mel when she sees Bloodraven in her fires and then bleeds? Or the red star bleeding in the sky?? Which one is it??? Or is it all of them????? Yes, exactly. There's already a shitload of potential Azor Ahais in the story right now, depending on how hard you squint. That's how fortune-telling works, after all: just spew vague and cryptic gibberish and let the mark fill in the blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastards Giant Friend Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: I'll have to reread it with that in mind, because it still feels to like those two words are too different to be used interchangeably because they are different catalyst/ignition sources with different results, but that is probably just me, which happens I don't think Illyrio is saying the word choice wasn't intentional. I see people post all the time that George doesn't want to fit or follow any fantasy stereotypes. A common stereotype is the clear fulfillment of a prophecy that had been unclear until it is fulfilled. Like you said regarding the bleeding star, George gives us numerous examples to possibly choose from and they each point in a different direction. So maybe if a prophecy does come true in his books, we will look at it and say "but I thought X was much more fitting to the prophecy. Golly this is a bittersweet conclusion". The worst part is, once a prophecy is set it will always exist until it is fulfilled (unless you give a specific date for the end of the world). But the fulfillment doesn't have to be perfect. Where did the prophecy even come from? It seems more likely that the legends of heroes defeating monsters led people to take comfort in and believe that similar events would surround any modern heroes that may arise. They are looking for signs to give them hope. Much in the same way I look for Oprah every time I eat at Ezells Famous Chicken because they have a picture of her hanging on the wall. The picture is old. It's not of her in the restaurant. But I have hope I will see her because that would make my time at Ezells more special than most other times. And I believe I am special and living in a special time. Legends are grown from a kernel of truth. Water vapor rising like mist off of a fresh wound looks like steam, steam looks sort of like smoke. So if Jon survives and does something special, someone who was around him when he got et tu'd can look back and say "I am special and I live in a special time where a real hero came back from the dead after smoke poured from his mortal wounds." Or not. Someone can also look back and say it was obvious that Dany came through the pyre bald and reborn and, gee, what a special time to be alive. It's all poppycock, there is nothing special in George's world. People warp the events around them to suit their needs. Just like the real world. The most blatantly obvious proof of this is in the phrase valar morghulis. Edit: and somebody should tell the Others because if the OP is right, they seem to be trying to self-fulfill or cancel out some BS prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 From my point of view we have some few indications that wights and The Others have a certain level of intelligence: wight Othor knew where to find Mormont (memory); Vale told Jon Snow about a similair experience with her ex-husband Preferring to let Craster alive to be able to take his male children the arrangement of the dead bodies in the prologue and the disappearance of the bodies, staying close and wait for the return of the Night Watch raiders, can be judged as a well planned ambush I for myself would prefer to await further Information on them (if they can talk, e.g) before judging their level of intelligence. All signs of intelligence I have indicated above can also be found for hunting animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said: From my point of view we have some few indications that wights and The Others have a certain level of intelligence: wight Othor knew where to find Mormont (memory); Vale told Jon Snow about a similair experience with her ex-husband Preferring to let Craster alive to be able to take his male children the arrangement of the dead bodies in the prologue and the disappearance of the bodies, staying close and wait for the return of the Night Watch raiders, can be judged as a well planned ambush I for myself would prefer to await further Information on them (if they can talk, e.g) before judging their level of intelligence. All signs of intelligence I have indicated above can also be found for hunting animals. Maybe not the last one. Do animals in the real world set such complicated traps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: Maybe not the last one. Do animals in the real world set such complicated traps? Just think of the Velociraptors in Jurassic Parc. Or other animals like wolves or lions hunting in packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Yeah but raptors don't set bait, wait for your recon team to see it, then remove the bait while your scouts report back so that when you come back you're drawn even further in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh Man, @Macgregor of the North, this is a great topic. I was taking notes as I read the OP. You tied the scenarios together nicely and it fits for the most part. Let me play devil's advocate just a little because I think we are headed in the right direction but we may still be on the wrong road. None of this is to diminish anything you've put forth. Just some random contradictory thoughts that we may consider in order to get prognosticating on the right road. Royce is related to Stark and there is a resemblance. This speaks to the connection being blood, rather than an item. The item in question is a sword. Waymar's sword is shiny. Valyrian Steel, which I believe is most likely dragon steel, is not shiny. I know this from some disappointing research about the "shiny swords" found at the Quiet Isle. VS is dark and does not shine. Both Orphan-Maker and Caggo's arakh are actually black. In support of blood over an item theory I have to ask if the Others would be aware of the loss of a VS sword? The Royces are blood of the 1st Men and it is 1st Men who were the Last Hero and his dozen companions. I believe Lamentation, The Royce VS ancestral sword, was literally destroyed in the Dragon Pits at the end of the Dance of Dragons. In support of both blood and an item drawing the Others there is the attack at the Fist. That's Fist of the 1st Men, as we all know. Longclaw has been in the Mormont family for a very long time, but not as long as the Mormonts have had the blood of the 1st Men. Were the Others seeking Jeor Mormont or Longclaw? Were Waymar and Jeor simply Nights Watchmen or actually descendants of the original Last Hero and his companions? My recollection of the Night's King is hazy, but I do remember a great perversion of power and purpose at the Wall and a decisive end to The Night's King's reign. Was the NK enchanted by his corpse bride or was he truly in love with her? Does his blood identity matter? Does hers? It's curious that both Jorumen and The Stark of Winterfell are identified in this story, but the 2 major villains are not. Either way, NK was devoted to his worship, if you will, of the Others. It is a stretch for me to see him suddenly taking up arms against them. Valyrian Steel is said to "remember". I'm sure the blood of the 1st Men, particularly the blood of the Kings of the 1st Men, remembers as well. Which 1st Men kings stood in opposition to the good guys, the Starks, the longest? The Red Kings who exhibit a marked lack of loyalty as well as peculiar physical and psychological traits in current times. I think there may be something very telling in the lack of information available on the Bolton's history. I don't recall any infighting among the Starks ever. There is plenty of history of disloyalty and betrayal of the Starks with the Boltons. Nights King appeared to be complicit with the Others. I don't believe I've ever read Roose or Ramsay or any historical Bolton pray to the Old Gods, where we have valid proof the Starks are loyal to the Old Gods. Just a little food for thought here. The Last Hero set out with a dozen companions...in that NK turned many of his brothers in the NW to worship and sacrifice to the Others, how likely is it really that he would not only turn himself but his men yet again? We don't know if NQ was still around at the end of NK's reign, nor do we know if children were spawn from their marriage. Love and family is an awful lot to turn on. Didn't Aemon say that love was the bane of duty or something along those lines? In that NK was compliant with the Others I have a hard time envisioning a Bolton changing his mind and joining the fight against the Others. Again, these are just some random thoughts for consideration, not to discount your ideas. So much of your idea rests on the identity of the Nights King. As a Stark your theory is dead on. But Old Nan gives us 4 possible identities for the NK. The other 3 can't be easily dismissed. I've had a great time reading all the posts and will be following to see what else comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Guys I admit I have been sloppy on this thread with replies! I spent more time on Friday evening than I should have on LmL's thread convincing him and Ravenous reader that the Others in the AGOT Prologue did NOT think they were duelling with a Wighted Waymar (a Wight like Coldhands) at time of fighting. I don't come on here much at the weekends but I'll get back on tomorrow am and start this topic right back up with replies to the comments. Cheers for the comments, enjoy the rest of your weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyrio Mo'Parties Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 45 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Guys I admit I have been sloppy on this thread with replies! I spent more time on Friday evening than I should have on LmL's thread convincing him and Ravenous reader that the Others in the AGOT Prologue did NOT think they were duelling with a Wighted Waymar (a Wight like Coldhands) at time of fighting. I don't come on here much at the weekends but I'll get back on tomorrow am and start this topic right back up with replies to the comments. Cheers for the comments, enjoy the rest of your weekend. What's the matter, do you have a life outside the internet? I only glanced briefly at that, but I have to admit I found quite persuasive the idea that it was Waymar's blood rather than his sword that convinced them he wasn't who they were looking for. If indeed they were looking for someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said: What's the matter, do you have a life outside the internet? I only glanced briefly at that, but I have to admit I found quite persuasive the idea that it was Waymar's blood rather than his sword that convinced them he wasn't who they were looking for. If indeed they were looking for someone. Afraid so, quite a busy life indeed . Yes, the blood may well play a part in the Prologue but what I'm saying is that there is absolutely no chance that by the time they come to blows the Others are looking to the blood to confirm that Waymar is not a skinchanger zombie Wight like Othor/Jafer/Coldhands as they were claiming in page 2 of LmL's thread. They had been watching them the whole ninth day, the whole day. Possibly shadowing for part of the eighth as well?. Which means they would have been able to observe Waymars perfectly normal living human behaviour which includes things like eating, breathing, pissing and shitting etc, somethings Wights like Coldhands never do. Also, if we are willing to believe in stories such as the Last Hero then why don't we believe the Others are able to detect and smell the hot blood of a living being?. We may as well believe that and not pick and choose what we believe. So, with all said above we can be quite sure IMO that they didn't need to see the blood to flow red and steam on the floor to confirm Waymar was/was not a Wight. Now on page two of the thread, this was clearly what they were getting at and it's been put to bed now I believe. If they are now talking about a fire resurrected person the Others were looking out for in the Prologue, that's a whole separate set of discussions I'd like to take part in but as of that point in the thread (page2), @ravenous reader and @LmL were pushing that angle which I feel I've proved to be impossible. Ravenous reader even went as far as to supply quotes to prove exactly what type of Wight he was talking about so there's no disputing it whatsoever. Back to the blood. If the blood convinced the Others that it wasn't the man/resurrected man they were looking for that may well be how it is, but the Prologue does clearly state that it's the sword being held high that prompts the back up Others to move in to back up their leader. And it's the sword shattering that is the signal for them to safely move in to finish Waymar. When the blood hits the floor and steams after the first wound the back up Others do not move, make a sound, interfere, laugh, nothing. They are motionless, it doesn't prompt any response. The main Other mocks, yes he does. But it's once the sword shatters the back up Others move in to finish the job. Absolutely no reason to try to find a reason to dispute that. Like ive always said. I don't doubt the bloods importance, I believe there may be some importance to it, but we can't start playing down the sword simply because somebody comes out with a new theory, relegating the swords importance to the "classic" interpretation, whatever that meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Afraid so, quite a busy life indeed . Yes, the blood may well play a part in the Prologue but what I'm saying is that there is absolutely no chance that by the time they come to blows the Others are looking to the blood to confirm that Waymar is not a skinchanger zombie Wight like Othor/Jafer/Coldhands as they were claiming in page 2 of LmL's thread. They had been watching them the whole ninth day, the whole day. Possibly shadowing for part of the eighth as well?. Which means they would have been able to observe Waymars perfectly normal living human behaviour which includes things like eating, breathing, pissing and shitting etc, somethings Wights like Coldhands never do. Also, if we are willing to believe in stories such as the Last Hero then why don't we believe the Others are able to detect and smell the hot blood of a living being?. We may as well believe that and not pick and choose what we believe. So, with all said above we can be quite sure IMO that they didn't need to see the blood to flow red and steam on the floor to confirm Waymar was/was not a Wight. Now on page two of the thread, this was clearly what they were getting at and it's been put to bed now I believe. If they are now talking about a fire resurrected person the Others were looking out for in the Prologue, that's a whole separate set of discussions I'd like to take part in but as of that point in the thread (page2), @ravenous reader and @LmL were pushing that angle which I feel I've proved to be impossible. Ravenous reader even went as far as to supply quotes to prove exactly what type of Wight he was talking about so there's no disputing it whatsoever. Back to the blood. If the blood convinced the Others that it wasn't the man/resurrected man they were looking for that may well be how it is, but the Prologue does clearly state that it's the sword being held high that prompts the back up Others to move in to back up their leader. And it's the sword shattering that is the signal for them to safely move in to finish Waymar. When the blood hits the floor and steams after the first wound the back up Others do not move, make a sound, interfere, laugh, nothing. They are motionless, it doesn't prompt any response. The main Other mocks, yes he does. But it's once the sword shatters the back up Others move in to finish the job. Absolutely no reason to try to find a reason to dispute that. Like ive always said. I don't doubt the bloods importance, I believe there may be some importance to it, but we can't start playing down the sword simply because somebody comes out with a new theory, relegating the swords importance to the "classic" interpretation, whatever that meant. Your characterization of this conversation is completely wrong. We weren't "pushing" anything- just asking questions. That was actually the problem with the conversation - you kept viewing it as an adversarial conversation where somebody had to be either right or wrong, when all we were doing was exploring a new idea. You persuaded nobody of anything expect that you are extemely unpleasant to talk to and you treat assumptions as ironclad facts. I'll be ignoring you in the future, and feel free to not tag me in your own threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 On 1/6/2017 at 10:03 AM, Macgregor of the North said: Slender, graceful, grey eyed, that's how it goes isn't it? Curious for GRRM to give Waymar those features and have Jon be exactly the same. This is a really great observation! My mind is churning with the possibilities! A connection I have thought about in the past about Jon and Waymar Royce was Waymar's sword, actually. In the prologue, Waymar Royce's sword is described as "a longsword" and "jewels glittered in its hilt" Prologue-aGoT. After Ser Waymar is dead, but before he rises as a wight, Will grabs the sword, as he plans to take it to Commander Mormont as proof of what happened. Attention is drawn to that sword several times in this chapter. When Jon lets the wildlings through the wall and they pay for the passage with their treasures and tribute, "As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cips and golden goblets, warharns and drinking horns, a greed jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls ...One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three saphires in the hilt." JonXII -aDwD. I noticed this detail on my last reread a couple months ago, and it made me look into the Prologue of aGoT because it reminded me of Ser Waymar's broken sword. Even though there is no clear connection in description, neither a number or type of stones noted in the prologue description of the sword, I just assumed it was the same sword, and this was an easter egg that GRRM had left for us to find, but maybe it is more. Maybe there is a reason that Jon noticed the broken sword with it's jeweled hilt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 12 hours ago, LmL said: Your characterization of this conversation is completely wrong. We weren't "pushing" anything- just asking questions. That was actually the problem with the conversation - you kept viewing it as an adversarial conversation where somebody had to be either right or wrong, when all we were doing was exploring a new idea. You persuaded nobody of anything expect that you are extemely unpleasant to talk to and you treat assumptions as ironclad facts. I'll be ignoring you in the future, and feel free to not tag me in your own threads. We have already been through this. You and RR were on the angle of the Others needing to spill Waymars blood to check he wasn't a Black handed Wight, which I set out to prove wasn't true, which I did and which you agreed on on page 3 of your own thread. It's there in Black and white. Only then, did you really solely push the idea of the fire resurrected Waymar (which was more in line with your own main essay and an entirely better and more believable idea I'll add). We know all this to be true, no point getting upset about it anymore, stick to your side of the playground and I'll stick to my side if that's how you really want it to be, like we are children over here. If you ever feel like passionate adult conversation again though mate. Leave your feelings at the door and you are welcome on any thread of mine, you have a wonderful grasp on the books and I agree with many things you say but by god you don't like when someone points out something that conflicts with your own ideas. Adios amigo. MOTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 11 hours ago, St Daga said: This is a really great observation! My mind is churning with the possibilities! A connection I have thought about in the past about Jon and Waymar Royce was Waymar's sword, actually. In the prologue, Waymar Royce's sword is described as "a longsword" and "jewels glittered in its hilt" Prologue-aGoT. After Ser Waymar is dead, but before he rises as a wight, Will grabs the sword, as he plans to take it to Commander Mormont as proof of what happened. Attention is drawn to that sword several times in this chapter. When Jon lets the wildlings through the wall and they pay for the passage with their treasures and tribute, "As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cips and golden goblets, warharns and drinking horns, a greed jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls ...One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three saphires in the hilt." JonXII -aDwD. I noticed this detail on my last reread a couple months ago, and it made me look into the Prologue of aGoT because it reminded me of Ser Waymar's broken sword. Even though there is no clear connection in description, neither a number or type of stones noted in the prologue description of the sword, I just assumed it was the same sword, and this was an easter egg that GRRM had left for us to find, but maybe it is more. Maybe there is a reason that Jon noticed the broken sword with it's jeweled hilt? Welcome St Daga! You are correct there is a massive deal made about the sword in the Prologue and the Jewel hilt sticks out also as something to make it more noticeable possibly. Thats a great catch from the Jon chapter, I must admit I have never seen that pointed before, good eye!. Will does indeed drop it. Jon makes no note of the blade being splintered and twisted but he mentions it's broken, and that it certainly is. I wonder what influence it could have on the story if it was the same broken sword. I suppose it could teach them something of the weaponry of the Others and how it shatters regular steel?. Perhaps someone may notice it as they are sifting through the weaponry at Castle Black and say "that was Green boy Waymars sword!". There is possibilities sure. I'll keep an eye out for any further mention of it. Good spy and interesting to think on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostNymeria Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 What a interesting thread! Judging by the behaviour of the WW in the prologue, it indeed seems like they were looking for a certain blood and a certain sword. I think this could also tie in with the theory that the WW were interested in Benjen's Stark blood, hence his dissappearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 On 07/01/2017 at 1:31 AM, Yaya said: interesting conversations going on, great ideas Macgregor of the North, ... this is putting me in the thought train that Curled Finger had on a thread back - the "levels" of dead ... like black blood and stuff. could be that the Night King was a "dead" person? Thanks Yaya. Yeah, the possibility is there of course that the Nights King was a resurrected/raised "dead" person. I have wrestled with many angles of this. I like the idea he was the Last Hero (before his complete corruption and quest to be the Nights King). The thirteenth man of the original Nights Watch who defeated the Others to the point of truce and an agreement, a pact for sacrifices. What stops me from going full on with the idea of him dying and being raised again is that I think there's a possibility that his own seed created sacrifices for the Others (possibly alongside other men at the time) and this is how Stark blood may have played a part in the regeneration of the Others. A dead person naturally can't do this. Of course that swings away from the idea that the Last Hero and or Nights King was killed by the Others and raised as a Wight of sorts. To me though, it may not be a stretch to think that the Last Hero saw his twelve companions die so he seeked out the Cotf, alive. They somehow raised his twelve friends to be his "dead" Wight companions but he lived. Only until his brother Brandon "the breaker" rode on the Wall to bring him down when he took things too far and became the Nights King and took a dark turn. Isnt it interesting that this brother is called the Breaker. That hints at him breaking the pact with the Others in my eyes. As in no more sacrifices. On how the Cotf may have raised the twelve companions, or at least the ones who died, as Wights, but the Others never, which you would expect right?. Its been brought up before that maybe these men were Skinchangers who at point of death their shades fled into their animals. In the ADWD Varamyr Prologue when he seeks his Wolf to live on in him once he dies he views the world and what's going on, he sees Wights and he sees thistle become a Wight but not his own dead body which he has left. He does not mention that his own body rises. Does this mean the Others never raised his own body as a Wight?. If so I'd love to know why and if it's something to do with the transfer of Varamyr to his Wolf at point of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 @Illyrio Mo'Parties I'll touch on the rest of the stuff you say soon but quickly a word on this. Quote I'm still fond of the theory that we haven't actually seen the true Others yet. We've seen their peasant levies - the wights - and their knights - the "white walkers" - I've had a few conversations about this and it all really stems from that early bit of text floating around that GRRM wrote doesn't it which talks about the Others, and the neverborn etc etc and it's prompted many to think that the Others are something we've not seen yet. Ive thought on it loads and I wonder that if GRRM did ever have three tiers to his Ice threat such as the Wights, the White Walkers, and the Others then did he always keep that plan?. Maybe you can help here but I've always had a thought on the AGOT Prologue (back to that again haha). Although it is primarily from Wills POV, GRRM also has his own input for us, such as times where it's not Wills thoughts and he's simply describing the setting and stuff. I'm not an expert on how to break down how books are written and all that but when GRRM writes things like: "The Other slid forward on silent feet." Or "The Other said something in a language that Will did not know." Isnt this GRRM actually describing this being as an "Other" and not Will, isn't GRRM himself actually calling this being an Other?. Therefore the beings that Will Gared and Waymar meet are Infact, the Others?. I may be wrong, I'm no literature expert. What do you think?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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