Bluetiger Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Quote From Wikipedia: The Cutting of the elm was a diplomatic altercation between the Kings of France and England in 1188, during which an elm tree near Gisors in Normandy was felled. In the 12th century, the tree marked the traditional place of Franco-Norman negotiations, as the field was located on the border between Normandy, ruled by the English King, and the royal domains of the French King. One account narrates the meeting between King Henry II of England and King Philip II of France in 1188, following the fall of Jerusalem: At Gisors, Henry II and his advisers stood under an Elm tree while Philip and his entourage suffered in the full heat of the sun. After the meeting, Philip ordered the tree cut down and hacked to pieces, sending the message that he would offer no quarter to the English. A quite different account is given by the Minstrel of Rheims (c. 1260), a thirteenth-century historical fiction: King Richard sent a message to the counts of Sancerre and of Barre, telling them that they took the king's bread and gave him nothing in return but if they were brave enough to come to the elm tree at Gisors, he would consider them truly courageous. The French nobles sent the message back that they would come the next day, at the third hour, to cut the tree down, in spite of him. When the English king heard that they were coming to cut down the tree, he had the trunk reinforced with bands of iron, that were wrapped five times around it. The next morning the French nobles armed themselves, and assembled five squadrons of their men, one of which was led by the count of Sancerre, another by the count of Chartres, the third by the count of Vendôme, the fourth by the count of Nevers, and the fifth by Sir William of Barre and Sir Alain of Roucy. The rode up to the elm tree at Gisors, with the crossbowmen and carpenters out front, and they had in their hands sharp axes and good pointed hammers, with which to cut the bands that were fastened around the tree. They stopped at the elm tree, tore off the bands, and cut it down, in spite of all resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Pain killer Jane said: I am right here. Been stalking the thread. he he. Como un jaguar... Quote That is awesome to see that Yggy is cared for in such a way. The thing that we know as honeydew is the secretion of insects that eat the sap of the trees and Pine Honey is made from bees taking those secretion and making honey out of it. While Yggy does have honey, Greek mythology had Meliae (ash tree nymphs) that used it from their own trees to nurse Zeus. I think the amber-honey connection is the Propolis or bee glue, a type of resin made by honeybees. While they use it for building and stuff, they also use it to mummify creatures that may wonder into their hives and die from being stung to death. @ravenous reader remember we spoke on the significance of Ellyn Ever-Sweet going to the mountain hive and pledging to the King of Bees (buzzing of bees can be described as whispering so the King of Bees was probably a greenseer) to forever care for his children. Ellyn Ever-Sweet should be considered an immortal due to this pact. So I wonder if the Propolis made via the material from the Weirwood tree is what allowed her to become as such. Amber trapping insects and preserving them is akin to the usage of Propolis for mummifying dead animals. Super analysis! The poisoning-for-power theme, with the perils of stinging and mummifying at work. I love the pick-up of 'buzzing' as a greenseer word akin to 'whispering...rustling...stirring...sighing...singing...humming, etc.' Hodor is always humming, isn't he? So Hodor would represent the power of the weirwoods/greenseers. @Wizz-The-Smith and @LynnS-- what do you think? Also, in light of Wizz's 'hollow hills' concept, the 'mountain hive' with its honeycomb network is akin to the weirnet, largely an underground network of many interconnected caves and tunnels. We even find human dwellings being compared to a hive or honeycomb in the Quiet Isle (which @Nasty LongRider has recently posited as a 'hollow hills' site) and in the Eyrie, where the sky cells are compared to a honeycomb. Quote Oh BTW hate to go off topic here but I found something recently Once I dreamed of flying, she thought, and now I've flown, and dream of stealing eggs. That made her laugh. "Men are mad and gods are madder," she told the grass, and the grass murmured its agreement. - Dany X, aDwD Sounds very much like Azhor Ahai stealing the NissaNissa egg/moon. And sounds like Bran too with his flying dreams. It very much points to the Azhor Ahai hubris, by which human beings are never satisfied with what they have, always wanting more, further, bigger, better. Also, it demonstrates the 'viciously recirculating' (from Joyce's Finnegans Wake 'riverrun' concept) nature of the vicious cycle. Flying gives rise to dreams of eggs gives rise to more birds and flying and more dreams of eggs and more birds and more flying... 1 hour ago, LmL said: Hodor might be an Atlas figure, a giant who holds up the world. He smells of the stables, bathes in the mud pools, very earthy guy all around... Good point. 1 hour ago, LmL said: This could be a reference to the Wall then, which may well be black stone underneath. Cracking the ice off of his black cloak would be akin to ridding the Wall of ice - and ages ago, when I was thinking more about the ice moon and what should happen to it, my guess was that it should lose its icy crust. Ice moons like Europa are mostly rock, but are covered in a global ocean and a global ice crust layer. My theory about ice and fire moon is that they govern magic on the planet. Fire moon was blackened, came to earth, so fire magic is shadowed and wrapped up with greenseers and burning trees and the ocean and whatnot. The ice moon ate a fire moon meteor, so it is now burning ice. What we might need to do is knock the ice off that ice moon so we just have a rocky moon - no ice, no fire, no magic, just a normal moon so Planetos can eventually become like earth. I still don't understand what you mean by 'magic being shadowed'...I know you explained it to me once, many moons ago, but I still don't understand the nuance. Please pretty please, explain again! 1 hour ago, LmL said: 'Ragged' and 'rags' are keywords we need to research, because they tie into the scarecrow idea and the patchwork fool's cloak and the skinchanging ideas. @Seams explored the 'ragged' /'dagger' anagram on the Puns thread. I believe she also connected the 'ragged' marker to deserters. Remember, the Night's Watchmen Gared who was beheaded by Ice in the opening execution was described as 'ragged'. He was beheaded using Ice over an ironwood stump from which the snows around drank his blood, almost as if the roots of a tree were being fed by the sacrifice. Almost as if in response to his death, the party were directed to the direwolves. I must revisit Seams' thread and see if I can make sense of it. I agree on the scarecrow/greenseer association. ETA: @Blue Tiger Doesn't 'rag' derive from Old Norse or Icelandic or something for 'wolf' or 'dog'? 1 hour ago, LmL said: Now, my nennymoaning? Dragonglass see? cough cough, polite cough? Ha ha ha. You have left me dumbfounded. Frozen my nennymoans in a glacial silence! (since when are your audible coughs in my direction 'polite'..? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: Speaking of amber... this passage is interesting: I get why place like Asshai might have loads of obsidian.. but amber? It sounds like the last place where trees would grow... On the other hand, it takes millions of years to form amber, so maybe it's nothing. The amber probably comes from the black trees that are used to make the shade of the evening. 17 minutes ago, LmL said: Care to explain? The Elm tree marked the border between France and England. In that time the realm of England extended into Normandy because William the Bastard/William the Conqueror brought it over when he became King of England in 1066. As @Blue Tiger provided the text for the Cutting of the Elm, it highlights the usage of the Elm as a meeting place. The war between the Children and the First Men came about as a result of the cutting of the heart trees. The burning brand can be both interpreted as the fire of the gods/burning bush stolen and also war as in the case of the Ironborn and their burning brand marching out of the water to conqueror and pillage. Btw @Blue Tiger there is a small section there that alludes to the usage of the cutting of the elm in the novel, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail as the point where the Knights Templar split off from the Priory of Scion. This is interesting because we have a lot of references to holy blood, kingsblood, the holy grail, and prophesied scions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 39 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: I was wondering what this means: Manderlys are extremely interesting when it comes to symbolism - they're green men (directly connected to the Sacred Order of Green Men), but they're mermen as well... and Northmen who own white city (ice moon symbolism)... and their castle was Dunstonebury... They sure are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: he he. Como un jaguar... That is funny. I have another handle I use by the name of Ixchel B'alam, red woman jaguar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said: That is funny. I have another handle I use by the name of Ixchel B'alam, red woman jaguar. Yeah -- after the poem 'anthem' you quoted the other day, it came to me in a dream...(I am paying attention, even when I seem not to be!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I just reread this, and I thought of y'all here... Quote On the gallows tree, all men are brothers. Brienne, Feast 37 (My apologies if this post is repetitive.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I just reread this, and I thought of y'all here... Brienne, Feast 37 (My apologies if this post is repetitive.) HA! I have that one lined up for my next essay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 (Whistles 'The Hanging Tree' although he's not a great fan of Hunger Games) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Seams explored the 'ragged' /'dagger' anagram on the Puns thread. I believe she also connected the 'ragged' marker to deserters. Remember, the Night's Watchmen Gared who was beheaded by Ice in the opening execution was described as 'ragged'. He was beheaded using Ice over an ironwood stump from which the snows around drank his blood, almost as if the roots of a tree were being fed by the sacrifice. Almost as if in response to his death, the party were directed to the direwolves. I must revisit Seams' thread and see if I can make sense of it. I agree on the scarecrow/greenseer association. ETA: @Blue Tiger Doesn't 'rag' derive from Old Norse or Icelandic or something for 'wolf' or 'dog'? Daggers also seem to be associated with words - if you lose your sword, you use your dagger. But also, going on Tywin's advice, words are the other weapon one uses in war, besides swords. The clearest connection seems to be after Theon is castrated, when his POVs often mention that he carries around a dagger. Following Ramsay's orders, he uses a dagger to cut off Jeyne Poole's wedding dress before performing oral sex on her. When he and Lady Dustin emerge from the crypt (=forge), they note that Theon would not want to lose his tongue. By contrast, Ser Ilyn Payne loses his tongue but is always associated with swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 25 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I just reread this, and I thought of y'all here... Brienne, Feast 37 (My apologies if this post is repetitive.) From the beginning of that chapter: Quote They came upon the first corpse a mile from the crossroads. He swung beneath the limb of a dead tree whose blackened trunk still bore the scars of the lightning that had killed it. The carrion crows had been at work on his face, and wolves had feasted on his lower legs where they dangled near the ground. Only bones and rags remained below his knees … along with one well-chewed shoe, half-covered by mud and mold. “What does he have in his mouth?” asked Podrick. Brienne had to steel herself to look. His face was grey and green and ghastly, his mouth open and distended. Someone had shoved a jagged white rock between his teeth. A rock, or … “Salt,” said Septon Meribald. It's cool because it's a gallows tree struck by lightning. It's a brotherhood of black faced dead people hung on trees which were struck by lightning. The crows have been working on their eyes, just as the three eyed crow worked on opening Bran's third eye, and just as Odin lost an eye to open his third eye. More undead NW greenseers, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Super analysis! The poisoning-for-power theme, with the perils of stinging and mummifying at work. I love the pick-up of 'buzzing' as a greenseer word akin to 'whispering...rustling...stirring...sighing...singing...humming, etc.' Hodor is always humming, isn't it? So Hodor would represent the power of the weirwoods/greenseers. @Wizz-The-Smith and @LynnS-- what do you think? Also, in light of Wizz's 'hollow hills' concept, they 'mountain hive' with its honeycomb network is akin to the weirnet, largely an underground network of many interconnected caves and tunnels. We even find human dwellings being compared to a hive or honeycomb in the Quiet Isle (which @Nasty LongRider has recently posited as a 'hollow hills' site) and in the Eyrie, where the sky cells are compared to a honeycomb. And you know the preserving of the dead sounds like the catacombs of the Starks underneath Winterfell. Oh I forgot to mention that Ellyn Ever-sweet's descendants are House Beesbury of Honeyholt that sits on the Honeywine river that flows underneath Oldtown and then empties into the Whispering Sound. And you know the Ellyn Ever-sweet might also be the source of the sweet sister theme. And you know the only other person named Ellyn is Ellyn Reyne, who takes the brunt of blame for the Tarbeck-Reyne rebellion. Her rival was Jeyne Marbrand, while being akin to Jane Doe, its usage here looks like a Doe with a burning brand who becomes the sun aka a Lannister. And the Jeyne name is so crazy in its symbolism when attached to women in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Seams said: Daggers also seem to be associated with words - if you lose your sword, you use your dagger. But also, going on Tywin's advice, words are the other weapon one uses in war, besides swords. The clearest connection seems to be after Theon is castrated, when his POVs often mention that he carries around a dagger. Following Ramsay's orders, he uses a dagger to cut off Jeyne Poole's wedding dress before performing oral sex on her. When he and Lady Dustin emerge from the crypt (=forge), they note that Theon would not want to lose his tongue. By contrast, Ser Ilyn Payne loses his tongue but is always associated with swords. I'm not seeing the connection to rags or greenseers, apart from cutting the dress (thereby creating rags). How does that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 45 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said: (Whistles 'The Hanging Tree' although he's not a great fan of Hunger Games) A Hanging tree is a Rowan tree growing together with a Hawthorn tree. It is a wishing tree grown by the Good People. ETA: A Penny Tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, LmL said: From the beginning of that chapter: It's cool because it's a gallows tree struck by lightning. It's a brotherhood of black faced dead people hung on trees which were struck by lightning. The crows have been working on their eyes, just as the three eyed crow worked on opening Bran's third eye, and just as Odin lost an eye to open his third eye. More undead NW greenseers, huh? My mind is not quite as beautiful as yours, but that lightning strike caught my eye this time too. It reminded me of this post... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/109906-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v5/&do=findComment&comment=5786723 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: My mind is not quite as beautiful as yours, but that lightning strike caught my eye this time too. It reminded me of this post... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/109906-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v5/&do=findComment&comment=5786723 Quote The George has compared the Others to the Sidhe of Irish folklore. According to such folklore, the splits in a tree caused by lightning strikes can serve as pathways to the world of the Sidhe. White is often used to symbolize purity and innocence. We learn in Clash that Craster gives his sons to the Others, and in Storm, apparently, that those boys become Others. Now, check this out from Jon III, Clash as Jon and the Nights Watch approach Crasters Keep, Quote As he rode past a lightning-blasted chestnut tree overgrown with wild white roses, he heard something rustling in the underbrush. It turns out to be Dywen and Grenn, who have been screening the main column as outriders, and Dywen tells Jon, Quote "Thought me and the boy had us one o' them Others to deal with." I have noticed this quote before too but wasn't sure what to make of the white roses. Your info about lightning trees and the Sidhe is really interesting though, isn't it? And then that line, right by it, thinking Jon was an Other. Of course the Others are connected to lightning a few times - they move as quick as lightning, and the broken sword of Waymar looks like a tree twisted by a lightning strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, LmL said: I'm not seeing the connection to rags or greenseers, apart from cutting the dress (thereby creating rags). How does that work? Varamyr's squirrel skinned cloak Varamyr might have been amongst them if only he'd been stronger. The sea was grey and cold and far away, though, and he knew that he would never live to see it. He was nine times dead and dying, and this would be his true death. A squirrel-skin cloak, he remembered, he knifed me for a squirrel-skin cloak. - Prologue, aDwD And Waymar's sable cloak His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. "Bet he killed them all himself, he did," Gared told the barracks over wine, "twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior." They had all shared the laugh. Royce's body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy. -Prologue, aGoT Which the sable cloak slashed and covered in Waymar's blood would look like Mance's cloak sown with red silk to repair the slash marks. And Mance says I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. - Jon X, aSoS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 22 minutes ago, LmL said: I have noticed this quote before too but wasn't sure what to make of the white roses. Your info about lightning trees and the Sidhe is really interesting though, isn't it? And then that line, right by it, thinking Jon was an Other. Of course the Others are connected to lightning a few times - they move as quick as lightning, and the broken sword of Waymar looks like a tree twisted by a lightning strike. Just so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetiger Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 @ravenous reader, I remember that there was some connection between wolves and raggs, but I don't recall it now... Here is 'raggs' etymology from Wiktionary: Quote Same as Danish rag, Icelandic rogg, Norwegian ragg, Old English adjective raggig and English noun rag, all based on an Indoeuropean root ru ("to rip, tear"), Icelandic rýja (“to rip the wool from sheep, to shear”), Latin ruo (“to rip, dig”) and rutrum (“a shovel”). In older times, wool was not cut or shorn from sheep, but ripped or torn off. Btw, in Latvian rag = horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 35 minutes ago, LmL said: I'm not seeing the connection to rags or greenseers, apart from cutting the dress (thereby creating rags). How does that work? As rr mentioned, it's in the Puns and Wordplay thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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