Why the ToJ showdown ever happened?

[purple-eyes]

it seems to be very unlikely that rhaegar informed ned where Lyanna is.

If this is the case, he is literally murdering KGs because he also ordered them to guard Lyanna.

 

[KingMance]

I'm down for an egg being at the ToJ, but why the hell would Rhaegar or the KG be killing newborns, a stark girl, and the prince of westeros? That makes zero sense. I believe it's in TWOIAF (might be wrong), but didn't they place eggs in newborn targ cradles in hopes they would hatch? Summerhall was a disaster, and the only "dragon" hatched there was Rhaegar.

As to the OP, I think 1-4 has been sufficiently answered. 5, who told Ned, I think it's reasonable to assume Jaimie told him, or (less likely) Varys. Rhaegar, as far as we know, hadn't seen Ned since he crowned Lyanna at the tourney. Rhaegar telling Robert, in the middle of combat, getting his chest smashed in, while thousands of others are fighting, doesn't work. After all, they're fighting over this girl, why would he give her and his son up? Jamie did encounter Ned though when KL fell, so that seems the most likely explanation imo.

[Bonkers]

5. To me it makes sense that Varys told Ned.  Varys most likely would have the information from listening in the walls of the Red Keep to Rheagar talking to his BFF/KG Dayne or similar about things - perhaps he spoke to Lewin Martell after returning to KL from the Tower - before the Trident battle.  If VArys wanted to preserve Targs for any reason he may feel compelled to tell Ned for that reason alone, but I think it is more likely that he told Ned where to find Lyanna for his own personal gain. 

If Varys tells Ned, then Ned would have some trust in him, and perhaps persuade Robert not to exile or kill him.  He also then has Ned in his pocket so to speak, as Ned will owe him for the information, and therefore it puts Varys in a stronger position - Ned is known to be honorable, so it would be uncharacteristic of him to then betray Varys after the fact. 

Whether Varys knows about the baby, or suspects as much, is secondary.  But I assume he suspects as much and keeps Ned's secret, giving him blackmailing material should he one day need it.  (Even if you don't subscribe to the R+L=J theory, it still may be that Varys assumes Jon is Lyanna's.  It may be just what Ned prefers Varys to think even if it not true.  But I digress.)

When Ned is dealing with Cat and LF he thinks "it would not be the first time he has made common cause with a man he despised". Varys also goes out of his way to speak to Ned in the dungeon and urges him to take the black, for keeping Joffery on the throne and perhaps to keep Ned still trusting him.  It ensures he has someone in debt to him. 

Just my humble opinion

[XIIIsnow]

WOW, never thought that I'll have so much answers. I can't quote all the things I like to comment, but I have a few comments in general.

Yes, it is a fever dream, and it is not possible to take it literally, despite that Ned "remembers" the conversation, but we can assume (I hope) that there was a fight between them. So, I was just wandering why KG did not try to reason with Ned. My reading of the events is that they were all prepared to fight. No one said to Ned that he should kneel before the newborn King and surrender, or something like that. Still, it is just mine wishful thinking, I am not saying that it should happened that way. I just can't shake the feeling that we are missing something or that GRRM didn't showed us everything. There may be some completely different reason why did they stop Ned to go in. What is it, I honestly don't have a clue right now. 

I don't want to comment the show here, I am not so much into it. I didn't watch the series before they over-passed the book events.

I also don't think Rhaegar was the snitch  It is simply not logical if we assume that KG was there on his command...Completely different if they didn't. I can't be sure at all, maybe its a false memory, but I think that somewhere in the books someone say that Rhaegar wife and children went to Dragonstone because of a fear of Aerys, not Robert and co...Maybe Aerys had something to do with helding Lyanna and the baby on guard. If it is true that Rhaegar planned the coup against his father, and that Aerys smelled it (and going to HH ater so many years of isolation), maybe he was using his new family as a bargaining chip in some of his plans with Rhaegar...don't know, wild thinking  

[Geddus]

3 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

Maybe Aerys had something to do with helding Lyanna and the baby on guard. If it is true that Rhaegar planned the coup against his father, and that Aerys smelled it (and going to HH ater so many years of isolation), maybe he was using his new family as a bargaining chip in some of his plans with Rhaegar...don't know, wild thinking

Aerys, mad as he was, still understood how hostages work, as evidenced by Jaime and Elia: if he had Lyanna I'm pretty sure he would have used, or tried to use, her against Ned.

I think Lyanna's location was kept secret from basically everyone, for reasons still unclear; I seem to remember Jaime thinking that Jon Connington was made Hand because Rhaegar couldn't be found. I assume Hightower was told about the Tower of Joy by someone, probably the same person(s) who later told Ned. Maybe the Daynes? It would make sense to ask them, I think, because of Arthur.

[The Twinslayer]

5 hours ago, XIIIsnow said:

WOW, never thought that I'll have so much answers. I can't quote all the things I like to comment, but I have a few comments in general.

Yes, it is a fever dream, and it is not possible to take it literally, despite that Ned "remembers" the conversation, but we can assume (I hope) that there was a fight between them. So, I was just wandering why KG did not try to reason with Ned. My reading of the events is that they were all prepared to fight. No one said to Ned that he should kneel before the newborn King and surrender, or something like that. Still, it is just mine wishful thinking, I am not saying that it should happened that way. I just can't shake the feeling that we are missing something or that GRRM didn't showed us everything. There may be some completely different reason why did they stop Ned to go in. What is it, I honestly don't have a clue right now. 

I don't want to comment the show here, I am not so much into it. I didn't watch the series before they over-passed the book events.

I also don't think Rhaegar was the snitch  It is simply not logical if we assume that KG was there on his command...Completely different if they didn't. I can't be sure at all, maybe its a false memory, but I think that somewhere in the books someone say that Rhaegar wife and children went to Dragonstone because of a fear of Aerys, not Robert and co...Maybe Aerys had something to do with helding Lyanna and the baby on guard. If it is true that Rhaegar planned the coup against his father, and that Aerys smelled it (and going to HH ater so many years of isolation), maybe he was using his new family as a bargaining chip in some of his plans with Rhaegar...don't know, wild thinking  

I wouldn't overlook the possibility that Lyanna was a hostage.  Whether you believe the first thing we are told in AGOT (from Viserys, via Dany's first POV), that Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, or the second thing we are told (by Robert), that Rhaeagar raped Lyanna, the Kingsguard's duty would be the same once Aerys and Rhaegar were dead:  to protect the remaining members of the royal family.  

Their conversation with Ned suggests that they knew that Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, that they knew that Rhaella and Viserys were on Dragonstone, and that they did not know the fate of Aegon, Elia and Rhaenys -- which likely means they assumed that Elia and her children were alive but captives in King's Landing.  Being only three knights, they couldn't do any of the royals any good by assaulting King's Landing on a rescue mission, and they wouldn't add much to the defense of Dragonstone considering that it was guarded by the Targaryen fleet and they are just three guys on foot.  

But they do hold one of the most valuable hostages in the 7 kingdoms:  Lyanna Stark.  If they can get her to Dragonstone, they can use the threat of killing her to prevent her brother (Ned) and her fiance (Robert) from invading, thereby protecting Rhaella and Viserys.  They may also be able to swap her for Elia, Rhaenys or Aegon -- or at least use the threat of killing her to prevent the rebels from killing Elia and her children.  

That would explain why they fought against Ned:  they could not let him take their hostage away.  It also explains why Ned fought dishonorably at the toj, by having himself and his 7 companions attack from horseback against three men who were on foot.  ("A chivalrous man would dismount," said Arstan.)

[Chris Mormont]

The question of "who told Ned about ToJ" is irrelevant. he may have heard a rumor Lyanna was in Dorne then heard a clue here and a clue there.  We also don't know how long he was looking, he may have visited several holdfasts and towers before coming upon TOJ.

If Lyanna was in fact pregnant with Rhaegar's baby then that baby was part of the royal family and potentially the heir, so the KG would have fought to protect him until the end.

[purple-eyes]

15 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

The question of "who told Ned about ToJ" is irrelevant. he may have heard a rumor Lyanna was in Dorne then heard a clue here and a clue there.  We also don't know how long he was looking, he may have visited several holdfasts and towers before coming upon TOJ.

If Lyanna was in fact pregnant with Rhaegar's baby then that baby was part of the royal family and potentially the heir, so the KG would have fought to protect him until the end.

it can be relerant if it is Ashara. rhaegar and lyanna and kg can not feed themselves. they need servants and supplies. starfall is a likely source. then ashara might know something. 

[JonSnow4President]

27 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

The question of "who told Ned about ToJ" is irrelevant. he may have heard a rumor Lyanna was in Dorne then heard a clue here and a clue there.  We also don't know how long he was looking, he may have visited several holdfasts and towers before coming upon TOJ.

If Lyanna was in fact pregnant with Rhaegar's baby then that baby was part of the royal family and potentially the heir, so the KG would have fought to protect him until the end.

Agree to the first, but disagree with the second.  

The KG have no responsibility to the royal family, especially mere half-nephews of the king, unless that protection is extended to them through the order of the king.  Disregarding whatever came out of Lyanna, Viserys should be the King (since these 3 do not recognize Robert and are remaining loyal to the Targaryen dynasty).  At that point, they should make an effort to ensure that Viserys has KG protection (depending on how much latitude you expect the Secret Service to have, this may include leaving one there to see to Lyanna).  

But here's the key.  They don't do that.  They acknowledge that Viserys does not have KG protection, but insist that they are fulfilling their vows.  That might fly as following orders before Rhaegar's and Aerys' deaths, but once a new king is in place and those orders are defunct, it doesn't. Unless being at the tower is already fulfilling their oath to the new king, which cannot happen if the King is Viserys.

[The Twinslayer]

20 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Agree to the first, but disagree with the second.  

The KG have no responsibility to the royal family, especially mere half-nephews of the king, unless that protection is extended to them through the order of the king.  Disregarding whatever came out of Lyanna, Viserys should be the King (since these 3 do not recognize Robert and are remaining loyal to the Targaryen dynasty).  At that point, they should make an effort to ensure that Viserys has KG protection (depending on how much latitude you expect the Secret Service to have, this may include leaving one there to see to Lyanna).  

But here's the key.  They don't do that.  They acknowledge that Viserys does not have KG protection, but insist that they are fulfilling their vows.  That might fly as following orders before Rhaegar's and Aerys' deaths, but once a new king is in place and those orders are defunct, it doesn't. Unless being at the tower is already fulfilling their oath to the new king, which cannot happen if the King is Viserys.

You are mistaken on both counts.  Aerys' kingsguard did have a responsibility to the royal family.  Specifically, as Jaime's conversation with Ser Jonathor Darry about Queen Rhaella confirms, they were "sworn to protect her too."  So their duty at least extended to the Queen on Dragonstone.  

And, the old king's orders survive after his death until the new king is crowned.  This we know from The Princess and the Queen.  When old King Viserys I died, his Hand was Ser Otto Hightower.   We are told:  "As the King's Hand, he was empowered to speak with the King's voice, even to sit the Iron Throne in the King's absence.  Viserys had granted him the authority to rule over the Seven Kingdoms, and 'until such time as our new king is crowned,' that rule would continue."  

They have to follow their orders even if that means leaving someone they believe to be the king without any kingsguard protection.  The Princess and the Queen also tells us how, after the fall of King's Landing, the Master of Whispers, Lord Larys, oversees King Aegon's flight from the city.  Aegon is with his young son and simple daughter and they have two kingsguard protectors with him -- Thorne and Fell -- and a nameless bastard knight.  Lord Larys gives the order:  Thorne and Fell are to leave King Aegon in the care of the bastard knight and go their separate ways, one with Aegon's son and the other with the daughter.  Both KGs obey the order (taking an oath to fulfill it) even though that leaves the king with no kingsguards.  Hightower, Dayne and Whent would do the same.

And it is not up to the kingsguard to decide who the new king will be.  It has been drummed into all of them that one of the worst kingsguards in history was Ser Criston Cole, the one they called "kingmaker."  So there is no way Hightower, Dayne and Whent decided to have a private coronation for baby Jon just before Ned rode up.  They would wait to meet with the last surviving adult Targaryen (Queen Rhaella) before proclaiming a new king.  And they would especially not take it upon themselves to crown an infant that Rhaella and Viserys had never heard of.  They would not want to start a new Dance of the Dragons while the Targaryens were in the process of losing a civil war.   

No, their duty at that point was to take Lyanna hostage and use her to protect Rhaella (and any other surviving royals they were sworn to protect).    

[XIIIsnow]

Well, I never said it's relevant  I said that bothers me personally and that is why I asked you all for opinion  

We definitely have no conclusive arguments on who are KG supposed to care. At least not on this topic so far. It is not quite clear what happens when the king dies. Do they protect king's family only while the king is alive ? We know from history of Targaryens that it was not always easy to pick an heir, we have great councils for making such decisions. In that case, does KG needs to protect every living member of the family, because some of them may become their future king? I think not. I know that RR is great game changer, because it is a change of dynasty and everything, and that KG may be "confused" about what should they do now, but I am not convinced that they were protecting potential heir just because he might be their king. No, they were keeping their oath to Aerys/Rhaegar or they were up to something else, that we should read about in  the next books. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 2/21/2017 at 3:34 PM, The Bastards Giant Friend said:

<snip

Something unlikely but possible to consider:

it is possible that not everyone died. Howland Reed could have saved Ned from Arthur with words. If so, to protect Jon the other survivors could have agreed to "die" and live under false identities until a necessary time arose. Kind of like what JonCon did.

 

This.  Very possible, especially since the entire idea behind Rhaegar needing a third child was based on the prophecy of a Targaryen saving the world from the Others (so far as we know). If Rhae Rhae got the idea that Lyanna's child was the promised prince (Promise me, Ned), the others could have gone off to get into positions where they'd be able to help him save the world. This has been theorized much and by many. Usually one ends up at the Wall, one at the Citadel, and at least one overseas (Ashara as Quaithe pretty much only makes sense in this context).

 

On 2/21/2017 at 5:12 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Showdown at the tower of joy was a fever dream that should not be interpreted as factual. 

Cmon the dream is ridicolous

I agree that it's not entirely factual, but he's remembering something. There will be actual clues in it, even if the details blur a bit. GRRM does not just throw in nonsense. Even the red herrings have clues to them.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 hours ago, KingMance said:

I'm down for an egg being at the ToJ, but why the hell would Rhaegar or the KG be killing newborns, a stark girl, and the prince of westeros? That makes zero sense. I believe it's in TWOIAF (might be wrong), but didn't they place eggs in newborn targ cradles in hopes they would hatch? Summerhall was a disaster, and the only "dragon" hatched there was Rhaegar.

As to the OP, I think 1-4 has been sufficiently answered. 5, who told Ned, I think it's reasonable to assume Jaimie told him, or (less likely) Varys. Rhaegar, as far as we know, hadn't seen Ned since he crowned Lyanna at the tourney. Rhaegar telling Robert, in the middle of combat, getting his chest smashed in, while thousands of others are fighting, doesn't work. After all, they're fighting over this girl, why would he give her and his son up? Jamie did encounter Ned though when KL fell, so that seems the most likely explanation imo.

Haven't read TWOIAF yet but I can tell you the point of placing the eggs in the cradles wasn't to hatch them, it was so the baby would be the first human the dragon saw WHEN the egg hatched. It's imprinting. Used all the time in animal training. Probably upped the odds of each Targ baby ending up a dragonrider.

I think if Jaime had told Ned where to find Lyanna, Ned would think a bit less harshly of Jaime.

14 hours ago, Bonkers said:

5. To me it makes sense that Varys told Ned.  Varys most likely would have the information from listening in the walls of the Red Keep to Rheagar talking to his BFF/KG Dayne or similar about things - perhaps he spoke to Lewin Martell after returning to KL from the Tower - before the Trident battle.  If VArys wanted to preserve Targs for any reason he may feel compelled to tell Ned for that reason alone, but I think it is more likely that he told Ned where to find Lyanna for his own personal gain. 

If Varys tells Ned, then Ned would have some trust in him, and perhaps persuade Robert not to exile or kill him.  He also then has Ned in his pocket so to speak, as Ned will owe him for the information, and therefore it puts Varys in a stronger position - Ned is known to be honorable, so it would be uncharacteristic of him to then betray Varys after the fact. 

Whether Varys knows about the baby, or suspects as much, is secondary.  But I assume he suspects as much and keeps Ned's secret, giving him blackmailing material should he one day need it.  (Even if you don't subscribe to the R+L=J theory, it still may be that Varys assumes Jon is Lyanna's.  It may be just what Ned prefers Varys to think even if it not true.  But I digress.)

When Ned is dealing with Cat and LF he thinks "it would not be the first time he has made common cause with a man he despised". Varys also goes out of his way to speak to Ned in the dungeon and urges him to take the black, for keeping Joffery on the throne and perhaps to keep Ned still trusting him.  It ensures he has someone in debt to him. 

Just my humble opinion

Well reasoned, Bonkers. 

 

6 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

it can be relerant if it is Ashara. rhaegar and lyanna and kg can not feed themselves. they need servants and supplies. starfall is a likely source. then ashara might know something. 

High Hermitage is closer to the ToJ than Starfall, but Ashara could easily have gone visiting her cousins at HH. GRRM has mentioned that she was not nailed down at Starfall during the war. And it would have been safe for her to travel within Dorne because the fighting was all to the north. Maybe a couple of border skirmishes, but nothing really inside of Dorne.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This.  Very possible, especially since the entire idea behind Rhaegar needing a third child was based on the prophecy of a Targaryen saving the world from the Others (so far as we know). If Rhae Rhae got the idea that Lyanna's child was the promised prince (Promise me, Ned), the others could have gone off to get into positions where they'd be able to help him save the world. This has been theorized much and by many. Usually one ends up at the Wall, one at the Citadel, and at least one overseas (Ashara as Quaithe pretty much only makes sense in this context).

 

I agree that it's not entirely factual, but he's remembering something. There will be actual clues in it, even if the details blur a bit. GRRM does not just throw in nonsense. Even the red herrings have clues to them.

He said that his friends who died are grey but the kingsguard were something along the lines shining bright stil implying they are still alive.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

He said that his friends who died are grey but the kingsguard were something along the lines shining bright stil implying they are still alive.

Shining bright may imply they are still alive, or it may imply something else. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Shining bright may imply they are still alive, or it may imply something else. 

What else could it imply?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

What else could it imply?

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

That's the thing about symbolism. It could go many different places. Until the author clarifies what from the dream is real and what is skewed by the dreaming and the milk of the poppy, we won't know.

[The Bastards Giant Friend]

I'm surprised nobody has suggested that Howland Reed knew where to find Jon. If he has any of the same traits that Jojen does he may well have known where to find them.
Even more, he may well have known Jon's importance and contributed to Ned's decision to raise and protect him closely.
We don't know much about Howland, so that's all speculative. But we do know he has spent time with green men and that his son has green dreams.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

That's the thing about symbolism. It could go many different places. Until the author clarifies what from the dream is real and what is skewed by the dreaming and the milk of the poppy, we won't know.

I think those explantions are quite weak. What would be the strongest symbolic meaning would be that they are alive. I bet 90% of people would interpret it that way if they were no got fans and hadn't read the books.

[UnFit Finlay]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

-Light bouncing off the white armor.
-The almost supernatural reputation those particular fighters had.
-Ned's feeling of inferiority in comparison to them.
-Ned's respect for their honor and devotion to duty.
-The fact that, having stayed out of the war, there is no blood on their hands of those three KG yet. As opposed to Ned and his buddies who have been fighting for months.

That's the thing about symbolism. It could go many different places. Until the author clarifies what from the dream is real and what is skewed by the dreaming and the milk of the poppy, we won't know.

I agree with this.

I don't see how the theory that they are still alive and waiting to help Jon save the realm holds up really. Westeros is a hard place, even for a Lord's bastard. Dayne, Hightower and Whent would feel mighty stupid if Jon got kicked in the head by a horse and died when he was 9. "Hmm. Maybe we should've actually guarded the King eh?"

Ned letting Jon take the Black is also a problem. He was quite content to let Jon unknowingly swear away his birthright. I really can't see Ned being part of a plot against Robert either. Lying to him to protect his nephew is one thing. Lying to him when he knows people are planning to try and put Jon on the Throne is another thing entirely.

I suppose the main thing is simply that I don't see how it adds to the story. Jon's hard life is supposed to be a contrast to Aegon's (relatively) pampered upbringing. It doesn't really work if there was always a plot to put him on the Throne.

Just now, Coolbeard the Exile said:

I think those explantions are quite weak. What would be the strongest symbolic meaning would be that they are alive. I bet 90% of people would interpret it that way if they were no got fans and hadn't read the books.

Well that's subjective isn't it? Personally I think the strongest meaning is that it's symbolic of Ned's admiration for them, which is obvious with the way he talks about them. Honour meant everything to Ned, and they were the very definition of the word. It's not surprising that he remembers them that way.

I can't really speak for hypothetical people who haven't read the books or seen the show but I certainly didn't read that section and assume that they were still alive.