Curled Finger

Skin Changing and The Last Greenseer

91 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Love to hear what you have to say about after you've tossed it around for a while.   

I'll probably re-read this part of the chapter this weekend.....these are big news.....

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18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh holy cow, I never even imagined it as intimate.   Gads, paradigm changer!

LoL not in a sexual way. If you prefer, imagine a crying child and a mother: if between them there is no "skin", they will be both anguished, the baby will not be comforted and will feel invaded. With Hodor it's different, Bran doesn't confuse his feelings with Hodor's and he doesn't want to comfort him in the same way as he wants to hug Meera. He was feeling differently:

Meera:       "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her

Hodor:         "Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice

so, if Meera experienced it, i'm not surprised she ran off.

57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

And the cave as a sensory deprivation chamber enhancing, perhaps focusing his powerful magic.  

yes, a sort of deprivation chamber! :P

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Magic, talent, skill--whatever it takes to unravel the mystery of the Others Bran Stark has got it.  Bran’s skin changing of Hodor is either an abomination or necessity or somewhere in between.  Thistle fought Varamyr with everything she had to get him out of her skin.  Gads, imagine something so awful you would tear your own eyes out to rid yourself of it?   Most of us are relieved when Bran overtakes Hodor the 1st time to quiet Hodor’s fear and command his responses.   I always enjoyed what I thought was a tip of Martin’s hat to Shelley’s Frankenstein as this skin changing takes place during a thunderstorm.   Bran had no intention of entering Hodor.   How could he even know he could do such a thing?   Was this instance the birth of a monster?  

 

"Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice, reaching up uselessly for Hodor's leg as he crashed past, reaching, reaching.

 

Hodor staggered, and closed his mouth. He shook his head slowly from side to side, sank back to the floor, and sat crosslegged. When the thunder boomed, he scarcely seemed to hear it. The four of them sat in the dark tower, scarce daring to breathe.

 

"Bran, what did you do?" Meera whispered.  ASOS Bran 3

 

Say what you like about the morality of Bran’s actions.   We read plain as day in Varamyr’s prologue that seizing a human’s body is the greatest abomination of all.   That’s not the point of this discussion.  Bran’s initial visit inside Hodor was an accident of crisis.    There was no intention in the original skin changing, only the desire to quiet Hodor and save his company.   Bran comes and goes as he pleases in Hodor’s skin from that point on.   Bran likes being in Hodor and Hodor just curls up in a little ball. 

 

"Nothing." Bran shook his head. "I don't know." But he did. I reached for him, the way I reach for Summer. He had been Hodor for half a heartbeat. It scared him.  ASOS Bran 3

 

I can't let her fight the thing alone, he thought. Summer was far away, but . . .

 

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

 

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking. It was such a strange feeling that he almost fell. He could see himself on the cold stone floor, a little broken thing, but he wasn't broken now. He grabbed Hodor's longsword.  ASOS Bran 4

 

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside.  ADWD Bran 1

 

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.  ADWD Bran 3

 

Bran is a powerful magical being.  He slips into Hodor and can make himself known in the past, perhaps the present, in a weirwood and/or raven.   Bloodraven assures him he can’t be heard, but we know better.   Bran can warg a dire wolf, no small feat according to Varamyr, as well as skin change birds—these are only the 1st creatures we’ve witnessed.   We’ve seen him reach out to other characters in dreams; Jon and Arya come to mind most specifically.   This is not your average little boy by a long stretch.  Part of the wonder in Bran’s magic is the sheer accident of discovering ability.    What are Bran’s abilities thus far?

 

1.       Warg

 

2.       Green Sight

 

3.       Skin changing animal and human

 

4.       Telepath

 

5.       Retro cognition

 

6.       Remote Viewing

 

7.       Astral Projection

 

I don’t think Bran is even aware of some of his abilities, much less how to control them. 

 

In the cave the days are long and the nights seem to be even longer.   While Bran is fascinated and has lots to occupy himself with Meera and Jojen seem to go into decline.  Jojen pouts and sits at the mouth of the cave doing much of nothing and Meera tries to stay busy.    Meera & Jojen have helped Bran so much and Bran loves them both.  I’m not sure Bran would even be alive without them.  One night Meera is sad.  So sad Bran can feel it.  He wants nothing more than to drag himself over to her and hug her.  He’s thinking this and feeling strange then BAM, she runs from the little fire.  What happened?   I think Bran’s thoughts were so entrenched in comforting Meera that he just slipped a little too close for Meera’s comfort.   Maybe right under her skin.  

 

Meera began to cry.

 

Bran hated being crippled then. "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her, hold her tight the way his mother used to hold him back at Winterfell when he'd hurt himself. She was right there, only a few feet from him, but so far out of reach it might have been a hundred leagues. To touch her he would need to pull himself along the ground with his hands, dragging his legs behind him. The floor was rough and uneven, and it would be slow going, full of scrapes and bumps. I could put on Hodor's skin, he thought. Hodor could hold her and pat her on the back. The thought made Bran feel strange, but he was still thinking it when Meera bolted from the fire, back out into the darkness of the tunnels. He heard her steps recede until there was nothing but the voices of the singers.  ADWD Bran 3

 

My understanding of this paragraph hasn’t changed since my initial read.  Bran wanted to comfort Meera.  He thought of skin changing Hodor in order to hold her and pat her on the back.  Bran doesn’t seem to register Meera leaving.  He’s disconnected from his body and feeling strange even as the sound of her steps fades.  

 

This wasn’t an act of will.  This was a subconscious effort to comfort Meera in a physical sense.  Bran’s only thought is to comfort Meera much like that initial skinchanging where there was only the urgency of quieting Hodor.  It seems that Bran has graduated from having to work at skin changing to merely considering it to make it happen.   Meera isn’t meek Hodor.  She’s a protector and hunter and fighter.   Bran’s lurking about her interior creeps her out so much she runs off.  This reminds me of “the push” in Firestarter from conscious effort to second nature.  But Bran’s nose doesn’t bleed.  Without consequence what is Bran really capable of?  

 

I think we will learn that Meera felt encroached upon during this scene.  Bran will come to understand his power and the imperative to control it.  Will he unconsciously channel  Jojen, Leaf or even Bloodraven?  Jon, Arya or Rickon?  Theon?  Will he learn what this power is specifically for in conjunction with the laws of abomination held by the Wildlings?  Is this ability restrained by distance?  What if Bran never learns to control himself?  There is a lot to anticipate from the Last Greenseer.   Could Bloodraven's living entombment in the weirwood be a measure to contain his skinchanging ability?  What possibility do you see in Bran’s ability to skinchange humans?  Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?    

 

*Please note that I’m not a mystic or parapsychologist.  The list of psychic abilities is something I found in the wiki.  If you have a chance to go through the list you may end up with even more than I’ve listed here, but I was trying to keep it simple.   Apologies if I’ve used any of these terms out of context.   They simply sounded right to me.

 

I think it is very likely that he was in her mind to an extent and it is a sign of his growing powers.  A while ago I came across something about Meera on one of those threads about things people noticed  but did not know what to do with.  Both she and Rhaegal are green and bronze scaled frog killers.  (Her armor and the frog prince, also unrelated but I think there is a chance Quentyn is alive but went through some sort of 'kissed by fire' transformation like a twisted version of the frog prince from the fairytale). I wondered if Bran skinchanging Meera was foreshadowing for Bran skinchanging Rhaegal.  @ravenous reader Pointed out that the last hero who Bran mirrors so well had a sword of dragonsteel which may be a word play on dragon steal.  

 

Also I have been convinced that there are multiple cases of partial skinchanging hidden in the story by @Cowboy Dan.  

Edited by Unchained

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4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is really thought-provoking.

I have to say I don't think Varamyr's assessment of the ease or difficulty of skinchanging a direwolf makes any difference in this case. Bran and Summer had a deep bond before he even started having any idea of his skinchanging ability. Varamyr on the other hand forces his presence and consciousness into animals with whom he has no bond, and who want nothing to do with him, so while it would be difficult for him, it was not for Bran. It might very well be Varamyr's lack of sensitivity and compassion that makes it hard for him to skinchange, and while he prides himself on "breaking" his bond animals it's really just proof that he's scum. I suspect the greatest, or perhaps smartest or the least villainous skinchangers do not force their bond animals, but use gentler means of creating the bond.

Welcome Lady, I believe I promised in a previous topic to make my interpretation public for you and @kissdbyfire to weigh.   As much as your posts have given the entire community over the years I am very pleased to provoke your thoughts.   As to the ease of skinchanging I think it depends on the changer and to a lesser degree as demonstrated by Thistle and Meera, the changee.  @aryagonnakill#2 has put forth the possibility that Bran may in some fashion share a consciousness with Jon in Ghost.  If we accept Bran as having god-like powers this scenario becomes increasingly plausible.  Won't that be an interesting thing to read--1 wolf, 2 boys--WOW.  @Leo of House Cartel has made an equally interesting hypothesis that Bran has the potential to absorb the powers of BR, Jojen, perhaps a COTF.   I think that could turn everything on its head.   

As to motive of the changer affecting the reception of the changee you could very well be on to something.   Though it's clear Meera and Hodor don't particularly want to be skinchanged, Bran's intentions at least initially, are valid and in Bran's mind, necessary.  As I believe I've stated repeatedly, Bran is just a little boy.   Perhaps Meera will set him straight about reigning in his random compassion or perhaps when Meera tells Bran what he did he will understand the power he's got.   I hope this happens in front of Bloodraven so he can be set straight about Bran's powers as well...and won't that be interesting, too!   

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14 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

LoL not in a sexual way. If you prefer, imagine a crying child and a mother: if between them there is no "skin", they will be both anguished, the baby will not be comforted and will feel invaded. With Hodor it's different, Bran doesn't confuse his feelings with Hodor's and he doesn't want to comfort him in the same way as he wants to hug Meera. He was feeling differently:

Meera:       "Don't cry," he said. He wanted to put his arms around her

Hodor:         "Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice

so, if Meera experienced it, i'm not surprised she ran off.

yes, a sort of deprivation chamber! :P

Good thing I'm not in charge of definitions.    That would take kinky to an entirely new level.   

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10 minutes ago, Unchained said:

I think it is very likely that he was in her mind to an extent and it is a sign of his growing powers.  A while ago I came across something about Meera on one of those threads about things people noticed  but did not know what to do with.  Both she and Rhaegal are green and bronze scaled frog killers.  (Her armor and the frog prince, also unrelated but I think there is a chance Quentyn is alive but went through some sort of 'kissed by fire' transformation like a twisted version of the frog prince from the fairytale). I wondered if Bran skinchanging Meera was foreshadowing for Bran skinchanging Rhaegal.  @ravenous reader Pointed out that the last hero who Bran mirrors so well had a sword of dragonsteel which may be a word play on dragon steal.  

 

Also I have been convinced that there are multiple cases of partial skinchanging hidden in the story by @Cowboy Dan.  

Thanks for that and welcome, Unchained.   What an interesting thing to happen upon.  Green and Bronze scaled frog killers.   I will have to toss that one around myself.  @ravenous reader will blow your mind many more times to come, I promise.   I read @Cowboy Dan's topic as well, but I can't really put a lot of stock in this exquisite ability being such a prominent and commonplace thing.   I could be completely wrong of course and apologize in advance if we learn in TWOW there are many many times the greenseers and skinchangers run amok.  

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@Curled Finger, you got me sooooo confused just now! I never saw you'd opened the thread, and when I got the notification now saying you'd mentioned me, I came and read that post (with the mention), and I'm reading it and thinking, "why is CF talking as if I knew the first thing about his/her "Bran skinchanged into Meera" theory? :lol:

Now back to read the OP and the other posts... :cheers:

 

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, you got me sooooo confused just now! I never saw you'd opened the thread, and when I got the notification now saying you'd mentioned me, I came and read that post (with the mention), and I'm reading it and thinking, "why is CF talking as if I knew the first thing about his/her "Bran skinchanged into Meera" theory? :lol:

Now back to read the OP and the other posts... :cheers:

 

The forum has been screwy since yesterday.   I saw all @Cridefea's posts but never saw @Lady Blizzardborn's until 4 hours later.   I've been shut down probably 6 times since yesterday so there are problems on the forum.   @The Fattest Leech has a new topic going and it looks like she's having the exact same problems.   There were posts long before mine but I thought I was the 2nd reply.    

I hope you've had a chance to reacquaint yourself with our small discussion in the Is Bran Evil topic from maybe 10 days ago?   I've been working on this since then and didn't want to disrupt that topic with my own ideas.   I hope you enjoy reading this as much as I have.  Thanks for getting me on the road to a real topic discussion about this.  

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1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

The forum has been screwy since yesterday.   I saw all @Cridefea's posts but never saw @Lady Blizzardborn's until 4 hours later.   I've been shut down probably 6 times since yesterday so there are problems on the forum.   @The Fattest Leech has a new topic going and it looks like she's having the exact same problems.   There were posts long before mine but I thought I was the 2nd reply.    

I hope you've had a chance to reacquaint yourself with our small discussion in the Is Bran Evil topic from maybe 10 days ago?   I've been working on this since then and didn't want to disrupt that topic with my own ideas.   I hope you enjoy reading this as much as I have.  Thanks for getting me on the road to a real topic discussion about this.  

Yeah, things have been screwy for me too, as you mentioned. :dunno:

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That's a great OP, @Curled Finger! When you brought up the topic (Bran into Meera) elsewhere and we talked about you starting a thread for it, I thought about this scene... The possibility of Bran having skinchanged into Meera had never crossed my mind, but when you said the words, that's the scene that popped up in my head. Very interesting, and now, with the benefit of you laying it all out and hindsight, I'd say it's very likely indeed that that's what happened there. 

I now feel I must reread Bran's ASoS and ADwD chapters asap. :eek:

As to your last paragraph:

"I think we will learn that Meera felt encroached upon during this scene.  Bran will come to understand his power and the imperative to control it.  Will he unconsciously channel  Jojen, Leaf or even Bloodraven?  Jon, Arya or Rickon?  Theon?  Will he learn what this power is specifically for in conjunction with the laws of abomination held by the Wildlings?  Is this ability restrained by distance?  What if Bran never learns to control himself?  There is a lot to anticipate from the Last Greenseer.   Could Bloodraven's living entombment in the weirwood be a measure to contain his skinchanging ability?  What possibility do you see in Bran’s ability to skinchange humans?  Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?"

all I can say is yes, yes, yes! :P (But I'm not sure I can post it here... even in secret eye mode)

 

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's a great OP, @Curled Finger! When you brought up the topic (Bran into Meera) elsewhere and we talked about you starting a thread for it, I thought about this scene... The possibility of Bran having skinchanged into Meera had never crossed my mind, but when you said the words, that's the scene that popped up in my head. Very interesting, and now, with the benefit of you laying it all out and hindsight, I'd say it's very likely indeed that that's what happened there. 

I now feel I must reread Bran's ASoS and ADwD chapters asap. :eek:

As to your last paragraph:

"I think we will learn that Meera felt encroached upon during this scene.  Bran will come to understand his power and the imperative to control it.  Will he unconsciously channel  Jojen, Leaf or even Bloodraven?  Jon, Arya or Rickon?  Theon?  Will he learn what this power is specifically for in conjunction with the laws of abomination held by the Wildlings?  Is this ability restrained by distance?  What if Bran never learns to control himself?  There is a lot to anticipate from the Last Greenseer.   Could Bloodraven's living entombment in the weirwood be a measure to contain his skinchanging ability?  What possibility do you see in Bran’s ability to skinchange humans?  Do you think Bran inadvertently buzzed Meera?"

all I can say is yes, yes, yes! :P (But I'm not sure I can post it here... even in secret eye mode)

 

OH bitchen.   I'm glad to have brought some possibility and maybe a little new conversation to your world.   It's always an excellent trip with Bran, Meera, Jojen, Hodor and Summer--I never tire of reading Bran's POV.  I hope against hope there will be a new book, you know what book I mean.  In the interim and during our long wait, few things are better than a reread, right?   I am off to read your possibilities.   

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24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, things have been screwy for me too, as you mentioned. :dunno:

We're gonna need the ravens if this keeps up, Leech.   

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2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We're gonna need the ravens if this keeps up, Leech.   

And if they can't keep up then maybe we move onto lizard lions? No body will get in their way to slow them down :P

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53 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for that and welcome, Unchained.   What an interesting thing to happen upon.  Green and Bronze scaled frog killers.   I will have to toss that one around myself.  @ravenous reader will blow your mind many more times to come, I promise.   I read @Cowboy Dan's topic as well, but I can't really put a lot of stock in this exquisite ability being such a prominent and commonplace thing.   I could be completely wrong of course and apologize in advance if we learn in TWOW there are many many times the greenseers and skinchangers run amok.  

I do admit that the happenings here are a counter argument to cowboydan's stuff.  Meera is very aware of what is happening to her.  However, the parallels between skinchanging and sex are many, and a few of our maturing heroes both male and female are having to learn about a few things.  Due to Bran's disability keeping him from said things, I expect to see him go through a similar change with his powers, especially in any interaction with Meera.  This was his first time that wasn't mind rape and he just needs to learn.  

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21 minutes ago, Unchained said:

I do admit that the happenings here are a counter argument to cowboydan's stuff.  Meera is very aware of what is happening to her.  However, the parallels between skinchanging and sex are many, and a few of our maturing heroes both male and female are having to learn about a few things.  Due to Bran's disability keeping him from said things, I expect to see him go through a similar change with his powers, especially in any interaction with Meera.  This was his first time that wasn't mind rape and he just needs to learn.  

On the contrary, Ser, There was nothing sexual about it.   Keep in mind that Bran might be 10 at the oldest.   His forays into Hodor are not mind rape.  Bran is far too young to think in terms of sex...given his upbringing.  What happens to Hodor isn't so much rape because Bran doesn't intend any harm.   He knows Hodor doesn't like it, but Hodor is his vehicle.  Further, Bran knows this isn't right, but he doesn't seem to know why.   If Bran understood the concept of rape at all I have no doubt his adventures in Hodor would stop.  This buzzing of Meera wasn't sex.   It was comfort.   That's it, that's all.   If Bran were 12 you would have an argument, but at this point he is little more than a baby.   

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43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

On the contrary, Ser, There was nothing sexual about it.   Keep in mind that Bran might be 10 at the oldest.   His forays into Hodor are not mind rape.  Bran is far too young to think in terms of sex...given his upbringing.  What happens to Hodor isn't so much rape because Bran doesn't intend any harm.   He knows Hodor doesn't like it, but Hodor is his vehicle.  Further, Bran knows this isn't right, but he doesn't seem to know why.   If Bran understood the concept of rape at all I have no doubt his adventures in Hodor would stop.  This buzzing of Meera wasn't sex.   It was comfort.   That's it, that's all.   If Bran were 12 you would have an argument, but at this point he is little more than a baby.   

I agree he has no thoughts of sex and he just wants to comfort her, but I just don't think conscious thoughts on the matter are required to draw the analogy.  Characters unintentionally filling archetypal roles are all over the place.  Sansa does not intentionally kill Joffrey, but she is taking her revenge in a way.  Just look at vision of her with serpents in her hair to see who is symbolically culpable.  There is nothing pointing to the Queen of Thorns.  Jon, Robb, Renly, and Robert do not mean to be sacrificial Kings, but they are.  Bran's internal struggle, regardless of the extent to which he is aware of it, is between, for lack of better phrases, bodysnatcher and 'god who works in mysterious ways'.  I do not think Bran has an evil bone in his body, he's a little kid.  In fact, Bran's obliviousness seems to be a tool used by the author to get a good guy to do quite bad things.  If he can stay attached to his humanity and keep his desire to be a knight/normal kid under control he will learn and get better.  If not he may be a grey character eventually and arguably already is.      

 

I think our our disagreement on both the nature of Bran's encounter with Meera and whether or not there are hidden greenseer encounters unknown to the POV come from me just reaching a bit further from the literal written words.  That does open me up to larger mistakes (and I am sure I have a few), but I feel there is enough evidence to justify the reaching.  I would consider your rebuttal if you have more to say, but I will move on.  

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20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Leo of House Cartel, when are you going to get an avatar?

There was a crude saying back in the '70's that I find increasingly pertinent: Ass, Grass or Gas, No One Rides For Free.   There were energy and oil shortages in the US and as I say it was crude, but that is the distinct and foul vibe Bran's tale is leaving me with.  Jojen appears to be a sacrifice.  Hodor appears to be a sacrifice.  

 

 

Thank you for the kind words my freind! The avatar (and reading Firestarter) are both on my to do list :-)

That phrase is very jazzy in it's crudeness, and is a fantastic metaphor for the magic and sacrifice shown throughout ASOIAF. The Many Faced God's Gift, Stannis's skeleton like appearance, the death of Rhaego, Nissa Nissa, the ressurection of Cat: Only Death Can Pay For Life.   If Bran is destined to hitchhike through the strands of time and depths of minds, he may have a hefty toll to pay.

It appears that Bran's predecessor Brynden needed to be bonded to a Weirwood before he took his place as Three Eyed Crow, and this bonding process may have been going on for nigh on half a century. While we can't be sure of Bloodravens mental abilities to block out pain, having a large tree grow through one's body for 40-odd years is bound to be a painful experience, almost a personal death. Lord Rivers intimates that he is running out of time to train Bran properly, so this could perhaps be taken to mean that there may not be time for The Winged Wolf to sufficiently bond to a Weirwood. This could be where the Ass, Grass or Gas comes in. If Bran can't properly offer the personal sacrifice of tree-bonding on time then he may be forced to make a darker trade to gain the power needed for The Long Night...

Thinking of Jojen as a sacrifice is strange indeed. How much of this would he have seen in his Green Dreams? If Jojen has always known details surrounding his own mortality, would he have told Howland before he departed from Greywater watch forever? The Reed children being sent as guides to young Brandon was dangerous enough for their father, risking losing his kids forever due to the events of TWOT5K, but if you add in the magical nature and COTF connections of The Crannogmen, Howland's time on The Isle of Faces, Jojen's precognitive abilities and The Weirwood net, it seems like The Lord of Greywater Watch may have had a good idea of the journey beyond the wall his kids would eventually take.

I wonder if Howland may have been under the impression that Jojen and Meera would recieve some kind of psychic training, similiar to Bran. Jojen has powerful Green Dreams, something that, if nurtured, could surely prove highly useful when the armies of night come calling. If Jojen does not have to be sacrificed for Bran's progress, he could prove a formidable mental warrior, a Hand of sorts to Bran's psionic King.

 Where exactly Meera falls into this may prove the most difficult question of all. If Bran is destined to consume Jojen's energy and sit in the cave for the rest of eternity, what would Meera do? Could she perhaps be set up as an apprentice for Those Who Sing The Songs of Earth? It would be a nice way to bring the connections between The Singers and The Crannogmen to the front. Or could her status as huntress and wood dancer be a hint to her doing Coldhands esque recon work in the future? 

 

On 07/03/2017 at 2:40 AM, Curled Finger said:

Bran is a powerful magical being.  He slips into Hodor and can make himself known in the past, perhaps the present, in a weirwood and/or raven.   Bloodraven assures him he can’t be heard, but we know better.   Bran can warg a dire wolf, no small feat according to Varamyr, as well as skin change birds—these are only the 1st creatures we’ve witnessed.   We’ve seen him reach out to other characters in dreams; Jon and Arya come to mind most specifically.   This is not your average little boy by a long stretch.  Part of the wonder in Bran’s magic is the sheer accident of discovering ability.    What are Bran’s abilities thus far?

 

1.       Warg

 

2.       Green Sight

 

3.       Skin changing animal and human

 

4.       Telepath

 

5.       Retro cognition

 

6.       Remote Viewing

 

7.       Astral Projection

A good round up of Brans abilities thus far!

4. Telepathy is in interesting one indeed. We see Bloodraven communicating through dream with Bran whilst the boy is in several locations where Weirwoods are not directly present, such as his bedroom. If a powerful Greenseer can enter someone's mind to control their actions, then I'd imagine mind reading and psychic communication would be easy enough. If anyone was a reader of late 90's X-Men comics, you may be familiar with the Psionic rapport shared by Jean Grey and Scott Summers - basically a direct line linking the couple's thoughts. This could be similiar to the mental-link between The Three Eyed Crow and his young apprentice. Although Bran's early interactions with The Crow are mainly limited to the dreamscape, it wouldn't surprise me if Lord Rivers was a constant resident of Bran's psyche. If Bloodraven can do this type of thing, and Bran is his heir, young Stark maybe able to eventually reunite with all his living family members from the comfort of his cave.

If Bloodraven is infact a negative infuence, then he and Bran's rapport may have more in common with the psychic bond shared between Michael Myers and his young niece Jamie Lloyd in the admittedly awful Halloween 5.

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8 hours ago, Unchained said:

I agree he has no thoughts of sex and he just wants to comfort her, but I just don't think conscious thoughts on the matter are required to draw the analogy.  Characters unintentionally filling archetypal roles are all over the place.  Sansa does not intentionally kill Joffrey, but she is taking her revenge in a way.  Just look at vision of her with serpents in her hair to see who is symbolically culpable.  There is nothing pointing to the Queen of Thorns.  Jon, Robb, Renly, and Robert do not mean to be sacrificial Kings, but they are.  Bran's internal struggle, regardless of the extent to which he is aware of it, is between, for lack of better phrases, bodysnatcher and 'god who works in mysterious ways'.  I do not think Bran has an evil bone in his body, he's a little kid.  In fact, Bran's obliviousness seems to be a tool used by the author to get a good guy to do quite bad things.  If he can stay attached to his humanity and keep his desire to be a knight/normal kid under control he will learn and get better.  If not he may be a grey character eventually and arguably already is.      

 

I think our our disagreement on both the nature of Bran's encounter with Meera and whether or not there are hidden greenseer encounters unknown to the POV come from me just reaching a bit further from the literal written words.  That does open me up to larger mistakes (and I am sure I have a few), but I feel there is enough evidence to justify the reaching.  I would consider your rebuttal if you have more to say, but I will move on.  

Oh I do like the words you've chosen.  I would argue only a small point here about Sansa's responsibility in Joffrey's poisoning.  She had no clue the plot was in play.   Sansa's own idea was to push Joffrey to his death.   Still she never acted.   While the prophesy does point to Sansa I would offer that the majority of the GOHH's dreams regard the Starks and Arya bears witness to the them.  I think if Arya were older she may have understood what she was hearing.  Sansa is only guilty of being yet another Stark in the wrong place at the wrong time.   Like Hoder, she is nothing but a vehicle in this.   

It has occurred to me that characters are painted in a certain way by GRRM in order to elicit specific responses and expectations from the reader.   This guy.   I won't be surprised but I will feel very foolish when the Starks all turn out to be the real baddies in this.   Ick.   On the other hand, Jamie and Sandor Clegane turned out to be pretty bitchen characters--warts and all.   I think I get where you're coming from a little better and thank you for the clarification.   

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24 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Thank you for the kind words my freind! The avatar (and reading Firestarter) are both on my to do list :-)

It appears that Bran's predecessor Brynden needed to be bonded to a Weirwood before he took his place as Three Eyed Crow, and this bonding process may have been going on for nigh on half a century. While we can't be sure of Bloodravens mental abilities to block out pain, having a large tree grow through one's body for 40-odd years is bound to be a painful experience, almost a personal death. Lord Rivers intimates that he is running out of time to train Bran properly, so this could perhaps be taken to mean that there may not be time for The Winged Wolf to sufficiently bond to a Weirwood. This could be where the Ass, Grass or Gas comes in. If Bran can't properly offer the personal sacrifice of tree-bonding on time then he may be forced to make a darker trade to gain the power needed for The Long Night...

Thinking of Jojen as a sacrifice is strange indeed. How much of this would he have seen in his Green Dreams? If Jojen has always known details surrounding his own mortality, would he have told Howland before he departed from Greywater watch forever? The Reed children being sent as guides to young Brandon was dangerous enough for their father, risking losing his kids forever due to the events of TWOT5K, but if you add in the magical nature and COTF connections of The Crannogmen, Howland's time on The Isle of Faces, Jojen's precognitive abilities and The Weirwood net, it seems like The Lord of Greywater Watch may have had a good idea of the journey beyond the wall his kids would eventually take.

I wonder if Howland may have been under the impression that Jojen and Meera would recieve some kind of psychic training, similiar to Bran. Jojen has powerful Green Dreams, something that, if nurtured, could surely prove highly useful when the armies of night come calling. If Jojen does not have to be sacrificed for Bran's progress, he could prove a formidable mental warrior, a Hand of sorts to Bran's psionic King.

 Where exactly Meera falls into this may prove the most difficult question of all. If Bran is destined to consume Jojen's energy and sit in the cave for the rest of eternity, what would Meera do? Could she perhaps be set up as an apprentice for Those Who Sing The Songs of Earth? It would be a nice way to bring the connections between The Singers and The Crannogmen to the front. Or could her status as huntress and wood dancer be a hint to her doing Coldhands esque recon work in the future? 

 

A good round up of Brans abilities thus far!

4. Telepathy is in interesting one indeed. We see Bloodraven communicating through dream with Bran whilst the boy is in several locations where Weirwoods are not directly present, such as his bedroom. If a powerful Greenseer can enter someone's mind to control their actions, then I'd imagine mind reading and psychic communication would be easy enough. If anyone was a reader of late 90's X-Men comics, you may be familiar with the Psionic rapport shared by Jean Grey and Scott Summers - basically a direct line linking the couple's thoughts. This could be similiar to the mental-link between The Three Eyed Crow and his young apprentice. Although Bran's early interactions with The Crow are mainly limited to the dreamscape, it wouldn't surprise me if Lord Rivers was a constant resident of Bran's psyche. If Bloodraven can do this type of thing, and Bran is his heir, young Stark maybe able to eventually reunite with all his living family members from the comfort of his cave.

If Bloodraven is infact a negative infuence, then he and Bran's rapport may have more in common with the psychic bond shared between Michael Myers and his young niece Jamie Lloyd in the admittedly awful Halloween 5.

Firestarter is an old Stephen King novel.  The push is what the psychics called their ability.   I'm a big King fan so by all means read it.  I recently read on notablog that Martin is a King fan as well, so I feel I'm in good company there.   I find Bran's to be the underlying horror story in ASOIAF.  How about if our Bloodraven has been dead all these years since his disappearance and this bit with the bonding to the tree is no more than some sort of ice magic or COTF magic twist on resurrection?  Still I agree that this bonding was probably required to complete BR's stint as the greenseer.   We see in the cave that many trees have faces with eyes that move or expression.   It may be the way the childrens' consciousness has to be absorbed, but I'm not so sure anymore that this is the right way to handle a human.  Brynden Rivers was a sorcerer among other things in his natural life.  Seems to me he would know better?  

I'm not sure what to make of HR sending his kids to Bran.   We don't know of any other Reed children, so I sure hope this isn't some miserable twist on Hansel & Gretel Martin wrote these lovely characters into.   All I know is that HR is pretty well traveled himself.  He's got some sort of power, but I only know what it isn't.  I mean we really don't know the guy at all.   Meera and Jojen seem to like their dad and Ned & Robb seemed to think he was OK, but we haven't really got much information about the guy.    He could be Darth Vader or The Joker for all we know.  I want Jojen to have the death Tyrion wants.   His dreams can guide us in reading if we just get a few more.  Still I do find your King & Small Council analogy very interesting and to be honest shiny.   That never occurred to me before. Certainly Dany/Fire have their advisers in place.  Why wouldn't Bran/Ice have their own?   I think you need a bonus point for that one, my friend.   

I left the other potential relationships with your fine expositions in place.   I would actually like to see more conversation about this. Hint, hint--neat 1st topic idea.   I think I need to decide if Bran, Bloodraven and/or the children are pawns or players in this--and to what degree and on which side.   Do you think they are all on the same team?  

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13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Good thing I'm not in charge of definitions.    That would take kinky to an entirely new level.   

:lol:

 

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