Quellon

Why are some of the coolest and most macho characters gay?

90 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Along with Loras, I think the Blackfish may be a "cool gay dude". No hard evidence for, but none against, either. As far as we know, he did not refuse the Redwyne marriage because he didn't like that girl in particular, or because he had his eye on anyone else.

Edited by Therae
punctuation

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Well, you have to remember that ASOIAF is based in Medievel times. They had no real definition of gay and straight, but it was more of a top/bottom thing, or rather, the person penetrating and the person being penetrated.

 

Back in those days, a man could have homosexual sex with another man, but as long as he was the one on top (i.e. the one penetrating), he was still considered masculine and manly, and what we today would consider "straight", whereas the man on the bottom (i.e. the one being penetrated) was considered feminine and unmanly, and what we today consider "gay".

Because men have a penis, this means that when they were having sex with women, they were always considered masculine and women were considered feminine (although, depending on the culture, even if a man was penetrating a woman but allowed himself to be bottomed (or "ridden") by her, he was considered feminine). Basically, all sex between men and women was what we would call straight sex, but depending on the culture, the man's role as masculine or feminine depended on whether he was the one on top or the one on the bottom.

 

I suppose this could mean that Loras was Renly's top, considering that he is considered rather masculine, and Renly, although very-well liked, is not considered that. xD

 

But this is the reason why despite show-watchers only's attempts to have an official GOT Wiki-page dedicated to characters confirmed as LGBT, D&D have had all efforts undone, because of the Medievel top/bottom perspective and they want that perspective to reflecton the series.

 

(For those of you who are wondering, lesbian sex was not widely recognised, because penetration with a penis was in most cultures the only sex that was considered real sex, and the absence of a penis meant that they weren't truly having sex together.)

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10 minutes ago, Therae said:

Along with Loras, I think the Blackfish may be a "cool gay dude". No hard evidence for, but none against, either. As far as we know, he did not refuse the Redwyne marriage because he didn't like that girl in particular, or because he had his eye on anyone else.

Definite badass. Love the Blackfish!

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7 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Definite badass. Love the Blackfish!

:cheers:

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I think Margaery may be a lesbian, like a real one, not bisexual. In the real world there is a genetic component to homosexuality, so with her brother being gay, chances that she is as well should be increased. She is also content to be married to a very young boy,  and likes to surround herself with other young ladies (the singers are just amusing, especially to her straight or bisexual cousins). I'm pretty sure she has sexual experience... Just Not with men. Which I think is also the reason none of them will confess.

She may have lost her virginity NY horseriding, or experimenting with penetration with an object.

Alternatively she may have had sex with a man in the past, who may have Reply, or someone else, but not in KL.

This is just theory though, and I have no proof whatsoever. 

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Like most other things I think it comes largely from GRRM painting a very realistic world and that includes people at different points along the sexual spectrum. Being intelligent, he's going to be open minded about homosexuality so why not have good and bad characters alike identify as it. 

When it comes to someone like Oberyn it does serve to make them even more badass. It reminds me of "the wire", arguably the greatest show in history, and the character Omar. Best character in the whole series, if not all series. Obama once named Omar as his favorite fictional character of all time. He robs drug dealers, has a code of ethics, and is gay as can be. And this is in a culture that's shows more animosity to gays than pretty much any other ever. Yet he's still the best and most badass character on the show. His character wouldn't have been nearly as interesting if he were not gay. Homosexuality is just one more component that makes up a persons identity. It's the sum of these components that matter.

As far as throwing out possible gays/bisexuals in the series, a washerwoman offers to have Mance sleep with Theon. Probably an empty offer, but Mance is pretty open minded so you never know!

One thing that always struck me as odd is the lack of male on male rape in the series. I know it's not a fun topic but I think if GRRM really was being realistic we would have seen more of it by now. Perhaps having brothels with young boys in Westeros curbs this but at the very least I would think We should have heard reference of it occurring north of the wall.

p.s. I think you bring up a fair question and am sorry some people take issue with it.

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21 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

One thing that always struck me as odd is the lack of male on male rape in the series. I know it's not a fun topic but I think if GRRM really was being realistic we would have seen more of it by now. Perhaps having brothels with young boys in Westeros curbs this but at the very least I would think We should have heard reference of it occurring north of the wall.

p.s. I think you bring up a fair question and am sorry some people take issue with it.

It is hinted at/implied that Euron abused Aeron.

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20 minutes ago, Makk said:

It is hinted at/implied that Euron abused Aeron.

Ah good call! Completely slipped my mind when I was trying to think of examples. Makes sense with it occurring in ironborn society similar to how I assumed it would be more prevalent north of the wall. The more a society is ruled by might rather than right the more common rape will be. 

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I think Margaery may be a lesbian, like a real one, not bisexual. In the real world there is a genetic component to homosexuality, so with her brother being gay, chances that she is as well should be increased. She is also content to be married to a very young boy,  and likes to surround herself with other young ladies (the singers are just amusing, especially to her straight or bisexual cousins). I'm pretty sure she has sexual experience... Just Not with men. Which I think is also the reason none of them will confess.

She may have lost her virginity NY horseriding, or experimenting with penetration with an object.

Alternatively she may have had sex with a man in the past, who may have Reply, or someone else, but not in KL.

This is just theory though, and I have no proof whatsoever. 

Well if Littlefinger can be trusted on anything, Margaery had her crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she wanted. To lose her virginity she'd have to have sex with a man. You can lose the hymen to horseback riding, but that's not counted as losing virginity. If Margaery's maidenhead was intact when she married Renly, she couldn't risk it not being so when she married Joffrey and then again Tommen. Queens were supposed to be virgins. 

Marrying Tommen is something her family wanted her to do, so that she could remain queen. It also gave her some freedom before having to settle down to becoming a royal broodmare. She got to be queen but with very few queenly responsibilities. That meant she could have a lot of fun, within certain limits.

Surrounding herself with family members her own age is both normal and intelligent. Queens are always surrounded by other women. The noble ladies of the land take turns as ladies-in-waiting to the queen. Margaery is following custom but at the same time keeping those closest to her in a tight circle of people she knows she can trust, and by keeping herself surrounded by other women she's trying to ensure that charges of her cheating on her little 9 year old husband should be easily dismissed. Shame it didn't work out for her.

GRRM has said her story is inspired in part by Anne Boleyn, who was likely innocent. So I agree she probably hasn't slept with any man in King's Landing.

If she did end up sleeping with any man at any point, I'd find it hilarious if it was Oberyn Martell. Daddy Mace would have a fit if he found out. :D

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

 

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Posted (edited)

59 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

One thing that always struck me as odd is the lack of male on male rape in the series. I know it's not a fun topic but I think if GRRM really was being realistic we would have seen more of it by now. Perhaps having brothels with young boys in Westeros curbs this but at the very least I would think We should have heard reference of it occurring north of the wall.

 

- one of the septons travelling with Victarion complained that the crewmen took him below decks and 'used him as a woman.'   

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Surrounding herself with family members her own age is both normal and intelligent. Queens are always surrounded by other women. The noble ladies of the land take turns as ladies-in-waiting to the queen. Margaery is following custom but at the same time keeping those closest to her in a tight circle of people she knows she can trust, and by keeping herself surrounded by other women she's trying to ensure that charges of her cheating on her little 9 year old husband should be easily dismissed. Shame it didn't work out for her.

GRRM has said her story is inspired in part by Anne Boleyn, who was likely innocent. So I agree she probably hasn't slept with any man in King's Landing.

If she did end up sleeping with any man at any point, I'd find it hilarious if it was Oberyn Martell. Daddy Mace would have a fit if he found out. :D

Back in the day, the constant accompaniment by her ladies and cousins was as referred to the VPZ, Virginity Protection Zone. 

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22 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well if Littlefinger can be trusted on anything, Margaery had her crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she wanted. To lose her virginity she'd have to have sex with a man. You can lose the hymen to horseback riding, but that's not counted as losing virginity. If Margaery's maidenhead was intact when she married Renly, she couldn't risk it not being so when she married Joffrey and then again Tommen. Queens were supposed to be virgins. 

Marrying Tommen is something her family wanted her to do, so that she could remain queen. It also gave her some freedom before having to settle down to becoming a royal broodmare. She got to be queen but with very few queenly responsibilities. That meant she could have a lot of fun, within certain limits.

Surrounding herself with family members her own age is both normal and intelligent. Queens are always surrounded by other women. The noble ladies of the land take turns as ladies-in-waiting to the queen. Margaery is following custom but at the same time keeping those closest to her in a tight circle of people she knows she can trust, and by keeping herself surrounded by other women she's trying to ensure that charges of her cheating on her little 9 year old husband should be easily dismissed. Shame it didn't work out for her.

GRRM has said her story is inspired in part by Anne Boleyn, who was likely innocent. So I agree she probably hasn't slept with any man in King's Landing.

If she did end up sleeping with any man at any point, I'd find it hilarious if it was Oberyn Martell. Daddy Mace would have a fit if he found out. :D

I agree that keeping her female friends and family close is a smart move. I also think that the moon tea wasn't for herself, but for one (or more) of her cousins, or even Taena. 

I think it would be rather ironic if she is a lesbian, because the thought that she could be, not once crosses Cersei's mind. Cersei even thinks that Margaery may be doing it with Loras, which is obviously HIGHLY unlikely, since Loras is gay, and still in love with Renly, besides the fact that most people are not interested in having sex with their siblings. However, the much more plausible thought that Marg may not be interested in having sex with men at all (taking into account that her brother is also gay, and they're described as being rather similar, and close) , doesn't cross her mind once.

 

Anyway I do think Margaery is sexuality active, the whole scene with Sansa, and the eggs and chicks, is all about fertility and sexuality. They're basically flaunting it in Sansa's face. So to me that seems a strong hint that most of them are sexually active, including Margaery. Only Margaery may simply not be interested in men, except some innocent flirting, similar to Loras and his red rose for Sansa.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I agree that keeping her female friends and family close is a smart move. I also think that the moon tea wasn't for herself, but for one (or more) of her cousins, or even Taena. 

 

I believe that Margaery is a) a virgin b ) is way too canny and clever to be promiscuous when she is under the microscope in that pit of vipers and c) was attempting to get Moon Tea for her cousin Elinor who was betrothed to a handsome squire. I just think there was a narrative reason why they keep referring to them.

In fact, I have developed a theory that while Elinor was betrothed to her nice Ambrose boy, she was secretly deflowered and knocked up by the Bastard of Driftmark, hence the  need for the Moon Tea.

 

Here are a selection of highly subjective quotes arranged in a way that supports my no-evidence theory:

 

"Closest to Sansa's own age were the cousins Elinor, Alla, and Megga, Tyrells from junior branches of the House. "Roses from lower on the bush," quipped Elinor, who was witty and willowy. Megga was round and loud, Alla shy and pretty, but Elinor ruled the three by right of womanhood; she was a maiden flowered, whereas Megga and Alla were mere girls."

 

"As for Elinor, she was promised to a young squire, a son of Lord Ambrose; they would be wed as soon as he won his spurs. He had worn her favor in the Battle of the Blackwater"

 

"Margaery was dancing with her cousin Alla, Megga with Ser Tallad the Tall. The other cousin, Elinor, was sharing a cup of wine with the handsome young Bastard of Driftmark, Aurane Waters. It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey-green eyes and long silver-gold hair. "

 

"Others come to pay court to her cousins. Elinor is promised to the Ambrose boy, but loves to flirt,"

 

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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How is Jon Connington cool or kickass? All he does is lament over his dead silver Prince and nag Tyrion. 

Robert Baratheon in his prime is the most macho badass character in the series and he was as hetero as it gets. Maybe the other macho gay character are there just to balance him out.

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

How is Jon Connington cool or kickass? All he does is lament over his dead silver Prince and nag Tyrion. 

Robert Baratheon in his prime is the most macho badass character in the series and he was as hetero as it gets. Maybe the other macho gay character are there just to balance him out.

Well, he manages to orchestrate an amphibious landing on Westeros and conquer a number of the castles in the Stormlands. Other than that, nothing.

 

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Martin uses history to inspire his writings. He has probably heard of commanders such as Alexander the Great, and Richard the Lion heart, oh and from mythology Achilles, and even Zeus seemed to mix it up.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Also, he manages to orchestrate an amphibious landing on Westeros and conquer a number of the castles in the Stormlands. 

 

Considering the state the Stormlands were in and the size of the army he has I'm not sure that would be considered badass by my definition. Now defeating Robert at the Battle of the Bells that I would consider badass. I would also add that potentially spreading greyscale is very "uncool" by my standards at least.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Considering the state the Stormlands were in and the size of the army he has I'm not sure that would be considered badass by my definition. Now defeating Robert at the Battle of the Bells that I would consider badass. I would also add that potentially spreading greyscale is very "uncool" by my standards at least.

That's nice. 

Edited by Daena the Defiant

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Considering the state the Stormlands were in and the size of the army he has I'm not sure that would be considered badass by my definition. Now defeating Robert at the Battle of the Bells that I would consider badass. I would also add that potentially spreading greyscale is very "uncool" by my standards at least.

While I hesitate using the word "badass" in a serious discussion, I think the way he convinced and led the golden company to attack Westeros is a suitable demonstration of it. Also not telling anyone about the greyscale, refusing to cut of his hand despite knowing he will die in excruciating pain, just so he can put Aegon on the throne is pretty staunch as well.

I like Connington as a character. There is a lot of depth to him and he really feels alive as a character. Fishing Tyrion out of the river was also astonishingly brave, although personally I found that a bit too stupid and out of character.

Edited by Makk

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