U.S. Politics: High Nunes or Russian to Judgement

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

It's a bunch of bullshit though, primarily based on the stigma associated with cannabis being illegal. You don't see employers taking blood tests for alcohol use, even though that'd be a lot more indicative of someone's reliability at a job. I get the point you're making; employers fire people for all sorts of arbitrary bullshit. Boy does it boil my blood sometimes, though. 

Yeah, I agree with most of that. Alcohol is a far deadlier/unhealthier drug in almost all aspects. I can only speak from personal experience here, but I have to imagine that most of the work issues that spring from this sort of thing are typically associated with how your usage or addiction begins to effect your performance and reliability at work. The legality of alcohol won't save you from that sort of backlash, and neither should the legality or illegality of Marijuana.At the end of the day the point is usually moot, in that if they want to get rid of you, they will find a way to get rid of you. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Those weed breathalyzers are some scary fascist shit, especially when ppl are still testing positive hours after use. 

Um yeah, that's not bullshit necessarily. The last time I got stoned, I was high for a good 3 hours, and that was from one big hit. This shit is potent. Of course there is going to be some variance, but when you're talking about high grade weed (and that's pretty much all the dispensaries sell) you will be stoned for hours after smoking.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

You make a good point MEB, the pot I smoked in high school way so long ago is very different from the carefully cultivated and genetically superior product grown today.  But even so, some will drive anyway.   

Yeah, just a little personal aside here, as this is purely anecdotal. A guy my step-daughter was dating a few months back works as a driver for a dispensary. For Christmas, he gave me this.

https://www.stickyguide.com/dispensaries/urban-pharm/products/blue-tarantula-joint--2

 

Now this is probably a really extreme example, as this is widely considered to be a powerful joint among everyday pot smokers. Anyway, I took 3 big hits off of this monstrositywhich in hindsight was ill-advised. I was as uncomfortably stoned as I've ever been in my life. Within 10 minutes of hitting this thing, I was effectively mentally crippled. Everyday tasks became Herculean. I couldn't even effectively play my go to computer game, which I've burned more than a thousand hours on over the years. Filling the dogs' waterbowl was much like I imagine what Sisyphus experienced rolling that stone up a hill for eternity. I was left with no option other than hitting the sack. Still have about two thirds of it neatly stored in its' little sealed container and I'm scared to give it another go. And this is from someone who smoked pot pretty regularly throught my twenties and into my mis thirties. 

[DunderMifflin]

26 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

People test positive for alcohol hours after use with breathalyzers. I've been high as fucking balls for hours. I'm not sure the fact that one can test positive after hours of use is necessarily a good reason against their use; I think the bigger issue (as has been the case with alcohol in the same context) is the lack of extant public transit infrastructure in most places that makes it nearly impossible for the majority of people in the the country to actually get around anywhere after doing something like using cannabis or alcohol without driving. Which is stupid bullshit. 

That's a valid point but im not sure everyone should blindly hop on board with new magic dui handing out  machines with bold claims.

I'm just going by the article that reported some  stopped claimed to have smoked hours prior, so that's at least detecting after hours, not at most.

How sure is everyone that this magic machine isnt going to test you positive for smoking two days ago.

Modern superweed claims and all.

I know police and states have never lied about or manipulated data but it's possible they might one day.

[IamMe90]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

That's a valid point but im sure everyone should blindly hop on board with new magic dui handing out  machines with bold claims.

I'm just going by the article that reported some  stopped claimed to have smoked hours prior, so that's at least detecting after hours, not at most.

How sure is everyone that this magic machine isnt going to test you positive for smoking two days ago.

Modern superweed claims and all.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The point I'm making is that stronger DUI laws have had an indisputable impact on the the fatalities associated with drunk driving, which is a good thing. There exists objective evidence that cannabis impairment has comparable effects on driving ability as alcohol. So we can surmise that similar laws would have a similar effect. 

What's bad, and what should be the real focus of our legislative efforts, is the fact that it isn't easy for most people to get around without driving. 

BTW - about the most obnoxiously pro-drug person you'll ever encounter (just look at my annoying avatar). I support full legalization of pretty much all recreational drugs. But I also believe that there should be laws and regulations in place to mitigate the harms that arise from irresponsible decision making on said substances. We can reduce the rate of this irresponsible decision making by removing barriers to being responsible. 

[LongRider]

Holy Shit MEB, that sounds like some pretty powerful stuff!!  I guess the moral of the story is don't smoke dope named after big spiders!  

At least you, hopefully, got a nice sleep out of it.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Holy Shit MEB, that sounds like some pretty powerful stuff!!  I guess the moral of the story is don't smoke dope named after big spiders!  

At least you, hopefully, got a nice sleep out of it.  

Yeah, that should've been a big hint for me as I have a fairly irrational fear of big hairy spiders. *ICK*

[Fragile Bird]

Maybe vacations in Canada next year will do some of you good. The government announced that pot should be legal across the country by July 1, 2018. The Canadian dollar is 0.746 cents to the US dollar.

[DMC]

6 hours ago, Swordfish said:

Not after Bill walked on that plane he didn't.  Lynch basically dumped it in his lap.

 

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

 

No, that's not what I'm admitting at all.  You're making a tremendous leap here.

But again, the point is there is just no evidence that his intent was to sabotage Clinton, which is what was being claimed.

To the bolded, I've never said that was his intent, because I agree with you in that regard.  To the rest, it does not seem as if you understand the argument I am making - your response is framed in a binary pro/anti Hillary viewpoint when my original point was evaluating Comey's career and discerning his overall MO.  Get back to me when you understand nuance.

[DunderMifflin]

2 hours ago, IamMe90 said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

The point I'm making is that stronger DUI laws have had an indisputable impact on the the fatalities associated with drunk driving, which is a good thing. There exists objective evidence that cannabis impairment has comparable effects on driving ability as alcohol. So we can surmise that similar laws would have a similar effect. 

What's bad, and what should be the real focus of our legislative efforts, is the fact that it isn't easy for most people to get around without driving. 

BTW - about the most obnoxiously pro-drug person you'll ever encounter (just look at my annoying avatar). I support full legalization of pretty much all recreational drugs. But I also believe that there should be laws and regulations in place to mitigate the harms that arise from irresponsible decision making on said substances. We can reduce the rate of this irresponsible decision making by removing barriers to being responsible. 

That's it's not a good idea to let police run wild with any new gadgets that come along in the name of vague safety. This thing is prime for abuse. Like I said , what's stopping these things from saying you are too high to drive from that joint you smoked 2 days ago

And it's obviously going to be used against blacks and Latinos at alarming rates, just in time too.

police have in no way shape or form earned anywhere near that level of trust. 

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

So person legal for med pot can still get a piss test at their work and lose their job, even tho the use was considered legal.  So there are lots of grey areas around med and rec pot that need to be worked out. 

Yes - because weed is still illegal at the federal level, employees that use in states that have legalized it or even that have valid MMJ cards can still be fired on grounds of illegal drug use.   (My former employer did hair testing...yeah, good luck passing that one!)  

Colorado is still in limbo with regard to marijuana and employment law  - the state legislature COULD add pot smokeage to the existing list of 'protected recreational activities', which currently covers other stuff like smoking cigarettes, getting wasted at Rockies games, or protesting Trump when he comes to town.  (It's interesting, because a lot of people don't realize that many of these "at will" states have to actually legislate provisions like this  - it's the only way to give employees a minor degree of protection from companies that technically have the right to fire you for doing legal things on your own time that they don't like.)  

Anyway, Colorado's state govt has yet to include the use of MJ, whether for medicinal or recreational purposes, on that list.   As such, employers in the state are free to fall back on the federal law and continue to classify its use as a firing offense.    Should that change, there's going to be a big kerfuffle, not only for the "states' rights" issue, but how to deal with the larger companies in manufacturing or whatnot that have to be compliant with federal laws of operation (OSHA and such) in the workplace.     Lots of wrinkles still to be ironed out.

[ThinkerX]

Sanders is at it again:

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/sanders-defends-trump-voters-i-dont-think-theyre-racists-sexists-or-homophobes/ar-BBz8wTF?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=msnclassic

 

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders (I) on Friday defended voters of President Trump, saying that the election was Democrats' to lose and that the party needs to better represent the working-class voters who supported Trump and other GOP lawmakers.

"Some people think that the people who voted for Trump are racists and sexists and homophobes and deplorable folks. I don't agree, because I've been there. Let me tell you something else some of you might not agree with, it wasn't that Donald Trump won the election, it was that the Democratic Party lost the election," Sanders said while speaking at an Our Revolution rally in Boston with fellow Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.).

Sanders went on to say that a "fundamental restructuring of the Democratic party" was needed to win future elections and that problems with party's current setup is why many were quick to support Trump in the election, not because of some of the rhetoric on the campaign trail.

"We need a Democratic Party that is not a party of the liberal elite but of the working class of this country, we need a party that is a grassroots party, where candidates are talking to working people not spending their time raising money for the wealthy and the powerful," Sanders said. "And when we do that, when we transform the Democratic Party, we transform America."

Sanders said most people believe in a progressive agenda, not a right-wing agenda.

[ThinkerX]

1 hour ago, Triskan said:

You didn't editorialize that one much, buddy.  What are your thoughts on it?   Guessing you're supportive, but don't let me put words in your mouth.  Of course, there's another element on the left that doesn't like this argument Bernie's making.

Case in point

ETA:   This thread title is historically good

I live in a heavily conservative area and have to interact with such folks on a daily basis.  The vast majority are not the monsters those on the left portray them to be.  Instead, they are people.  Sander's acknowledges this.

I do find myself wondering - in years past, before he ran for president, Sander's had a reputation for being able to cut deals with both sides in a difficult environment.  Perhaps he could resume that role, act as a sort of bridge or conduit between the democrats and relatively sane republicans?  This is pretty much an idle thought.

[IamMe90]

3 hours ago, DunderMifflin said:

That's it's not a good idea to let police run wild with any new gadgets that come along in the name of vague safety. This thing is prime for abuse. Like I said , what's stopping these things from saying you are too high to drive from that joint you smoked 2 days ago

And it's obviously going to be used against blacks and Latinos at alarming rates, just in time too.

police have in no way shape or form earned anywhere near that level of trust. 

I am not go-hung about the police in the United States. I suspect we disagree far less about this subject than it seems. 

I just think this is a difficult subject, as far as the function of police in society goes. For the most part, it's one of the few non-violent functions of the police (and police brutality is the primary source of my dissatisfaction with the way our police force operates in this country). And I think it's pretty indisputable that enforcing DUI laws is absolutely necessary, although we can disagree with respect to what extent, and what methods by which police should accomplish this objective. 

I get your point now. I don't necessarily disagree; I just think it kind of misses the bigger picture. I don't think we should be focusing on the police getting their new gadgets, like a weed breathalyzer; because they're always going to get new gadgets as technology evolves. I think we'd do a lot better to focus our energies on what I would say are more central issues, such as: reducing discrimination and racial bias in the police; reducing the extent to which the police engage in violent conduct unnecessarily; and, as I touched on previously, improving our public infrastructure so that the whole problem of false positives re: breathalyzers that you're talking about is pretty much a nonissue for most people.

[DunderMifflin]

Habitual/daily pot smokers not being able to drive effects a LOT of people. I mean smoking a joint before you go to bed every night then not being allowed to drive to work the next morning is sick fuck shit. Especially in the fear mongering name of vague and unproven safety.

And the "today's pot is too strong" argument is weak. It's the same drug it's always been just more potent. Where instead of smoking an entire joint you get the effect from hitting the joint once or twice. Which honestly is probably better for the lungs since you don't have to smoke as much now to get the same effect.

Really what's needed for pot is sellers being required to somehow provide less vague info about the potency and strain of the weed they are selling, particularly with edibles. As of now, you don't really know how much weed is in that pot brownie before you eat it unless you made it yourself.

[Fez]

16 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I did not know that.  Fentanyl must be practically off the charts.

Yep. Fentanyl's around 0.005; its 50 times stronger than heroin and 200 times stronger than morphine. There's plenty of cases where people overdosed on fentanyl, got the naloxone to reverse it, and nothing happened because the dose was more than enough to block the naloxone. If you give someone enough naloxone it'll still work, but those kits usually only have 2 doses max.

15 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Are you by chance cooking stuff up in New Mexico?

Nah. Couple years ago I moved over from health care reform to drug policy.

Although, no joke, a while back the DEA did send me instructions on how to make meth (to illustrate how easy it is, I guess). Wasn't the same process as Walter White though. Much easier, and lower chance of explosions, but much less product per batch.

14 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Oklahoma does not allow automatic refills for any Schedule II and some Schedule III drugs. Every prescription must be picked up in person and doctors must conduct routine checks of the statewide patient monitoring system to attempt to discern if a patient's prescription filling behavior could be considered to be abusive.

From anecdotal evidence, it is practically impossible for chronic pain sufferers  to obtain a new opioid script, even if it's just because they changed doctors and they were receiving scripts from a previous doctor. Doctors must exhaust all other possible therapeutic options before writing an opioid script for a chronic pain sufferer, including things like physical therapy, etc., which can also be expensive and time-consuming and for which beneficial outcomes are hardly guaranteed.

Interesting. I didn't realize any state had gone quite that far yet. No automatic refills for Schedule II is pretty common, but Schedule III usually isn't touched. And usually after the initial prescription, patients don't need to see the doctor more than annually (or maybe every six months) unless the doctor wants to see them; instead its just 'call the doctor, doctor sends the prescription to the pharmacy.' In fact, in a growing number of states, patients aren't allowed to touch the prescription, due to concerns over tampering; it can only go directly from doctor to pharmacist. Checking the statewide monitoring systems is becoming more common, but that should be a burden only for the doctor; not the patient.

I also find it interesting how different the stories people have in this thread are from the stories I hear at work. I believe what everyone is saying, but at the same what I constantly hear from law enforcement, licensing boards, etc. is how hard it is to get most doctors on board with any changes and how most are operating the same as they always have (other than the straight-up pill mill docs; many of whom have been busted).

[LongRider]

8 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

(It's interesting, because a lot of people don't realize that many of these "at will" states have to actually legislate provisions like this  - it's the only way to give employees a minor degree of protection from companies that technically have the right to fire you for doing legal things on your own time that they don't like.)  

At will laws are mendacious shit and really hurt people, as I know from my own experience.  As you note, one can get fired for legal shit, or just because the manager decided he doesn't like an employee for personal reasons, not job performance reasons.  It's utter bullshit.

[LongRider]

Stumbled across this, some might find it interesting;

Quote

At a press conference Friday, White House press secretary Sean Spicer described the employees as “very blessed and very successful.” And now anyone can now see just how blessed they are; ProPublica posted disclosures for 63 employees on a public Google Documents folder, accessible here. Searchable versions of them are available on Document Cloud. BuzzFeed also uploaded 50 disclosures to Document Cloud.

You can request the financial details of a total of 180 White House employees through the White House’s website, although responses are not immediate. (Donald Trump and vice president Mike Pence’s personal financial details are not included in this disclosure).

https://qz.com/947833/sean-spicer-steve-bannon-ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-where-to-read-the-financial-disclosures-of-over-60-of-the-white-houses-wealthiest-employees/

[all swedes are racist]

10 hours ago, Triskan said:

You didn't editorialize that one much, buddy.  What are your thoughts on it?   Guessing you're supportive, but don't let me put words in your mouth.  Of course, there's another element on the left that doesn't like this argument Bernie's making.

Case in point

ETA:   This thread title is historically good

yeah, and it is exactly dipshits like frank rich, sally albright, etc that prove sanders point

[Fragile Bird]

Just saw a pretty sad report on CNN, interviews with employers in Erie, Pennsylvania, and Louisville , Kentucky.

Fits in with the drug discussion.

The employers drug test (does everyone in the US drug test? It's illegal to do so in Canada before you hire someone), and the failure rate for Americans is so high they look for recent immigrants and refugees to fill positions. Failure rates, they find, are about 20% to 25%.

The refugees and immigrants are looking for long term employment, whereas many of the Americans are only looking to get by for the short term. And the refugees, many of whom are either Muslim or come from societies where drugs and alcohol are not accepted, not only test clean but often have never used either drugs or alcohol at all.

The management at Sterling Technology in Erie all voted for Trump, hoping his pro business attitude would result in their business growing. But since 25% of their work force is made up of refugees and immigrants they are worried where they are going to find the employees they need if the supply is cut off.

In Louisville the employment office that helps immigrants and refugees finds jobs for people within 3 days, and often within a day. As they put it, the immigrants and refugees are filling jobs, not taking jobs.

In the meantime, the reporters interviewed Americans who failed drug tests, or who had drug use histories, and who feel hard done by and abandoned. They aren't being given a chance to show they can hold a job, they aren't being given a chance to recover, they aren't being given help. They agree that immigrants and refugees need a helping hand, but they need one too. As one man said, you reach the point where you don't even bother trying to find a job anymore. Louisville, in particular, has a 47% higher rate of drug test failures than the rest of the States.

So far there really hasn't been any indication Trump is going to help out those Americans, has there?