Bloodraven during Robert's Rebellion

[Renly's Banana]

@300 H&H Magnum
Ok, hold on. Say you're Aerys and you have Brandon and his father as prisoners in your castle. What exactly is your charge against them? "I'm gonna execute you both publicly because how dare you try to marry people outside of your region"?? Rickard Stark marrying his son to the Tullys is not an act of war or plotting to take over the throne. You know that's not the first time that's happened, right? Great lords marry their children to other powerful houses all the time. Is Tywin wanting Jaime to marry Lysa also considered plotting to take over the throne? Or Oberyn's mom wanting her children to marry the Lannisters? Jon Arryn fostering Ned and Robert is also an entirely normal thing that lords do.
By all accounts, Rickard Stark had nothing against the Targaryens until Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. He had no reason to. Jon Arryn likewise did not openly revolt until Aerys ordered him to kill his wards. Robert didn't "conspire" in anything until his life was literally put in danger just for speaking out. Again, why would all these great lords be gambling their lives on putting a random Baratheon teen on the throne?

If ANYONE had any sort of "ambitions" in all of this, I'd say it was not Rickard Stark, but Hoster Tully. As soon as the rebellion began, he immediately married his other daughter to another great lord. Which in itself is not so much greed as assurance that he'd be protected on almost all fronts. If Rickard Stark had "southern ambitions" then they weren't very good ones. Barbrey Dustin is a bitter old hag; let's not try to make sense of her and Aerys' paranoia plz.

[Darkstream]

2 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Actually, it is impossible for Rickard, Brandon, and Robert to be innocent of conspiracy against the crown.  Common sense says the blood ties that those marriage alliances would create puts them in position to challenge the Targaryens.  That's not how a good subject behaves at the very least.  Those fathers were planning and plotting a coup.  I can give Jon Arryn the benefit of the doubt and say he just got dragged along but Rickard doesn't enjoy the same excuse. 

You're drawing a speculative and a preconceived conclusion from events that could have many potential motives behind them.

As with LLF above, I'm not challenging your conclusion, however what you put forth as proof is an argumentative fallacy, and anything but proof of the aformentioned's guilt.

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Sansa and Jon were only part of the conversation.  Clearly, Ned was referring to the fact that his father was planning on Brandon becoming hand of the king.  Do you realize the implications here? 

Ned was not interested and Jon was the better choice at the time.  Brandon's impulsiveness notwithstanding, Rickard was planning great things for his first born son.  He had ambitions that could not be realized without first taking down his rightful king. 

Furthermore, you're attempting to use contrasting context to support your argument. You admit Ned is referencing Sansa and Jon, why would he then, mid thought, discard and ignore the fact that he is now been offered the position of Hand, and change the context to that of what was planned for his brother, and a position he neither coveted, was ready for, or was ever intended to receive?

ETA:

Upon further reflection on this quote, I must admit, I am a little more open to your interpretation that this may be a hint pointing towards the southern ambitions conspiracy. However, I would still maintain that Ned is not refering to this plan, as I believe you are implying [?]. More so that the author is giving us a clue.

[PrinceHenryris]

Brynden Rivers/Lord Bloodraven/The Three-eyed Crow/The Last Greenseer let the events play out as they did because it cleared the path for the Prince/Princess That Was Promised.

Was that Prince/Princess Jon or Dany?

Or maybe it paved the way for their union?

I'd welcome theories.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Waiting for Bran to be born .

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

I subscribe Bloodraven wanted to be sent to the wall.  He basically choose Aegon V to be king, from dunk and egg, egg didn't seem to care for Bloodraven.  Why would he kill Aenes Blackfyre? I argue to go to the wall and start fighting for the realm.  I feel once Egg took the throne he felt the targaryan reign was safe and he can start to prepare for the battle of the dawn.  Bloodraven has always had some greenseeing/ magical power and it only increased while he was in the north.  From the Greenseer throne he orchstated the birth of Jon and Dany both who have the most magical diverse blood of any characters to date.  So by choosing to go to the wall his actions possible helped to save the realm.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:39 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.

Do you have any quote that this happened?

[The Commentator]

I will side with 300HH on this one.  The resulting power shift from those marriage proposals is obvious to everyone.  A loyal lord would go out of his way to make sure his power will always be less than that of his boss, the king.  From what we know, Rickard was not stupid.  Brandon and Robert may be stupid young men but even they would know the implications of those marriages and they would know that the Targaryens could not allow those alliances to build.  This is my reason for thinking Rhaegar wanted to seduce Lyanna to disrupt those aliances.  

I agree that one sentence in of itself is not proof, but it is a clue pointing to this conclusion.  The king had good reasons for executing Brandon and Rickard but he went about it the wrong way.  It should have been quick and done discreetly.  Aerys had a right to protect his rule and if the Starks were threatening that rule they had to go.  The execution of the Starks and even the manner of their execution were within the public tolerance.  Aerys would have gotten away with it and it would have successfully blocked the marriage alliances.  The trouble came from Jon Arryn who loved Ned and Robert.  

Aerys should have stopped with the execution of  Rickard and Brandon.  The alliance was broken successfully.  Lyanna and any future child with Rhaegar is a bastard.  There is no need to kill Lyanna, just make sure Rhaegar never inherits the throne to prevent him from ever legitimizing his bastards with Lyanna.  Disinherit Rhaegar to prevent any Half Stark from inheriting the throne of the seven kingdoms.  

[The Twinslayer]

On 4/9/2017 at 1:39 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

This guy has been watching over the realm from beneath the tree for a long time.  He saw the birth of Eddard and his siblings.  I'm sure he witnessed the births of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  He must have witnessed the conspirators plotting their treason.  I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.  As far as we know, Bloodraven didn't attempt to interfere.  And if he did, he was ineffective.  I understand that he's a greenseer not a god.  But still, you would think he would have interfered.  He could have warned Varys through the "little birds" who may be more than just little children.  He either tried to help and failed or chose not to interfere because the events have to fall a certain way to:

• Birth Daenerys and bring back the dragons.
• Birth Bran Stark.
• Get rid of Rickard, Brandon, Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and eventually Robert.  In other words, get rid of ineffective but influential people in leadership positions.

It is possible Bloodraven is in league with the Others.  Melisandre has a vision of the the "Other" that has a thousand eyes.

He also may have been working against the interests of the 7 Kingdoms all along.  He supported a weak king against Daemon Blackfyre, who may have been a stronger king.  Then, what if he influenced the events that led to the death of Baelor Breakspear and paved the way for Baelor's weaker brothers to succeed?  And at the Great Council, was he the one who offered the throne to Maester Aemon, who probably would not have been a great king? 

What if he then influenced the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion to further weaken the kingdoms and to eliminate the line of Aerys and Rhaella (which was supposed to produce the Prince that was Promised)?  That led to the ascension of a king, Joffrey, who had no Targaryen blood and could not be the PtwP.  

And, we know he influenced Bran to prevent him from revealing the Jaime/Cersei incest and that Jaime pushed him to his fall.  ("Not that, it shrieked at him.  Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away.").  If Bran had spoken up then about the incest, Robert and the Iron Throne could have crushed the Lannisters and avoided the War of Five Kings.  The united 7 Kingdoms would have been strong and there would have been a Stark in Winterfell when the Others eventually arrived.

He also seems to be able to control wights (look at Coldhands).  

Bloodraven may not be a benevolent force at all. 

[devilish]

He was an old man, whose lifesource was extended thanks to magic. The wall blocks all sort of magic. Could he do anything at that stage?

[Aedam Targaryen]

4 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Aerys should have stopped with the execution of  Rickard and Brandon.  The alliance was broken successfully.  Lyanna and any future child with Rhaegar is a bastard.  There is no need to kill Lyanna, just make sure Rhaegar never inherits the throne to prevent him from ever legitimizing his bastards with Lyanna.  Disinherit Rhaegar to prevent any Half Stark from inheriting the throne of the seven kingdoms.  

Yes! I was thinking this as I read this entire thread! If he had stopped there, without ordering the heads of Ned and Bob, there still might be a Targaryen on the throne. Unfortunately, Aerys was batshit crazy, so of course it didn't work out that way. Haha!

[The Commentator]

4 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

It is possible Bloodraven is in league with the Others.  Melisandre has a vision of the the "Other" that has a thousand eyes.

He also may have been working against the interests of the 7 Kingdoms all along.  He supported a weak king against Daemon Blackfyre, who may have been a stronger king.  Then, what if he influenced the events that led to the death of Baelor Breakspear and paved the way for Baelor's weaker brothers to succeed?  And at the Great Council, was he the one who offered the throne to Maester Aemon, who probably would not have been a great king? 

What if he then influenced the events that led up to Robert's Rebellion to further weaken the kingdoms and to eliminate the line of Aerys and Rhaella (which was supposed to produce the Prince that was Promised)?  That led to the ascension of a king, Joffrey, who had no Targaryen blood and could not be the PtwP.  

And, we know he influenced Bran to prevent him from revealing the Jaime/Cersei incest and that Jaime pushed him to his fall.  ("Not that, it shrieked at him.  Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away.").  If Bran had spoken up then about the incest, Robert and the Iron Throne could have crushed the Lannisters and avoided the War of Five Kings.  The united 7 Kingdoms would have been strong and there would have been a Stark in Winterfell when the Others eventually arrived.

He also seems to be able to control wights (look at Coldhands).  

Bloodraven may not be a benevolent force at all. 

We can only go by his history of loyal service to the Targryen dynasty.  But yeah, he could be in cahoots with the Others is possible.

1 minute ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

Yes! I was thinking this as I read this entire thread! If he had stopped there, without ordering the heads of Ned and Bob, there still might be a Targaryen on the throne. Unfortunately, Aerys was batshit crazy, so of course it didn't work out that way. Haha!

Aerys was nuts and didn't know when to stop.  20 years of unrestrained habit was just too hard to break.  You would think Varys would advice for a more cautious move to deal with Robert and Ned.  

I don't understand why Ned didn't ask Varys why he didn't try to stop Aerys.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

39 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The resulting power shift from those marriage proposals is obvious to everyone.  A loyal lord would go out of his way to make sure his power will always be less than that of his boss, the king.  

So loving your children and try to marry them with the most eligible spouses. means that you conspire to overthrown the King? That is a new one. A new way to blame the Starks.

[The Commentator]

12 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So loving your children and try to marry them with the most eligible spouses. means that you conspire to overthrown the King? That is a new one. A new way to blame the Starks.

Those were actually not the most eligible of spouses to choose from.  So loving your daughter means marrying her off to a proven womanizer that she doesn't love?  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Those were actually not the most eligible of spouses to choose from.  So loving your daughter means marrying her off to a proven womanizer that she doesn't love?  

This womanizer was a Great Lord and in Westerosi society the people are not married for love. So yes, he was the best spouse for Lyanna.

[devilish]

12 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

@300 H&H Magnum
Ok, hold on. Say you're Aerys and you have Brandon and his father as prisoners in your castle. What exactly is your charge against them? "I'm gonna execute you both publicly because how dare you try to marry people outside of your region"?? Rickard Stark marrying his son to the Tullys is not an act of war or plotting to take over the throne. You know that's not the first time that's happened, right? Great lords marry their children to other powerful houses all the time. Is Tywin wanting Jaime to marry Lysa also considered plotting to take over the throne? Or Oberyn's mom wanting her children to marry the Lannisters? Jon Arryn fostering Ned and Robert is also an entirely normal thing that lords do.
By all accounts, Rickard Stark had nothing against the Targaryens until Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. He had no reason to. Jon Arryn likewise did not openly revolt until Aerys ordered him to kill his wards. Robert didn't "conspire" in anything until his life was literally put in danger just for speaking out. Again, why would all these great lords be gambling their lives on putting a random Baratheon teen on the throne?

If ANYONE had any sort of "ambitions" in all of this, I'd say it was not Rickard Stark, but Hoster Tully. As soon as the rebellion began, he immediately married his other daughter to another great lord. Which in itself is not so much greed as assurance that he'd be protected on almost all fronts. If Rickard Stark had "southern ambitions" then they weren't very good ones. Barbrey Dustin is a bitter old hag; let's not try to make sense of her and Aerys' paranoia plz.

 

Allow me to correct you on one thing though. These marriage were triggered not by Hoster but by Joanna Lannister who tried to marry off her cubs to the Martells. 

[devilish]

I think that many are failing to see the bigger picture here and the prelude to this madness.

When Aegon invaded Westeros, he was wise enough to acknowledge that the territory was too big for him to rule. Hence once he forced them to bend the knee, he left them to rule in all by name. The Targs and the Wardens/LPs were happy with that arrangement. The former were given the illusion of ruling all Westeros. The latter limited themselves to bow to the king and do whatever they wanted in their own region. Every now and then, some intrusive king will pop up who would come with some reforms, which the latter reluctantly accepted solely because the king had dragons. However, these instances were somehow rare.

This ‘unwritten relationship’ was put to the test by Aegon Targ (Egg). Egg was different from the other Targs since he spent most of his childhood travelling with a hedge knight. Unlike other Targs he could understand the smallfolk suffering and he wanted to change this injustice. This pissed off the Lords who created all sort of obstacles and forced him to relent on a number of projects he had in mind. Such resistance caused a rift between the LP/Wardens and the crown, especially since Egg’s health deteriorated because of constant worries and he ended up dying trying to resurrect dragons in a bid to bring the Targ dominance back.

Soon afterwards the war of ninepenny kings occurred. For the first time in Westeros history the LPs/Wardens were able to co-ordinate a successful military expedition in Essos without barely any Targ help. This allowed members of the ruling houses to bond with one another + it gave them confidence regarding their true worth. It also acted as a warning to the Targs that from now on they better behave since they weren’t really that needed anymore. 

So on one hand you had the LPs/Wardens who wanted to avoid another Egg and were starting to acknowledge their true strength. On the other you had a declining house who were living on one hell of a nostalgia trip and were still mourning a good king (Aerys granddad and uncle died at Summerhall) who died mostly because he wasn’t allowed to rule well by those who pledged allegiance to him. That brought friction between the two groups and also explain why Aerys was so hostile to Tywin (whom rumour started to spread out that he was the real king) and to Brandon (who barged in KL to challenge the king). 

Don’t take me wrong, I am not justifying Aerys in any way. I am only explaining why the Targs overreacted the way they did. 
 

[The Commentator]

40 minutes ago, devilish said:

I think that many are failing to see the bigger picture here and the prelude to this madness.

When Aegon invaded Westeros, he was wise enough to acknowledge that the territory was too big for him to rule. Hence once he forced them to bend the knee, he left them to rule in all by name. The Targs and the Wardens/LPs were happy with that arrangement. The former were given the illusion of ruling all Westeros. The latter limited themselves to bow to the king and do whatever they wanted in their own region. Every now and then, some intrusive king will pop up who would come with some reforms, which the latter reluctantly accepted solely because the king had dragons. However, these instances were somehow rare.

This ‘unwritten relationship’ was put to the test by Aegon Targ (Egg). Egg was different from the other Targs since he spent most of his childhood travelling with a hedge knight. Unlike other Targs he could understand the smallfolk suffering and he wanted to change this injustice. This pissed off the Lords who created all sort of obstacles and forced him to relent on a number of projects he had in mind. Such resistance caused a rift between the LP/Wardens and the crown, especially since Egg’s health deteriorated because of constant worries and he ended up dying trying to resurrect dragons in a bid to bring the Targ dominance back.

Soon afterwards the war of ninepenny kings occurred. For the first time in Westeros history the LPs/Wardens were able to co-ordinate a successful military expedition in Essos without barely any Targ help. This allowed members of the ruling houses to bond with one another + it gave them confidence regarding their true worth. It also acted as a warning to the Targs that from now on they better behave since they weren’t really that needed anymore. 

I can understand some of that.  Except that in the end, the Targaryens were needed after all.  Robert took the realm to financial ruin.  The War of the Five Kings caused more destruction than any dance of the dragons ever did and the damage is still going on.  The Targaryens are the best option for Westeros for many reasons.  Reasons that I plan to write in a topic of its own.   Of course those shortsighted Lord Paramounts failed to understand that.  

So on one hand you had the LPs/Wardens who wanted to avoid another Egg and were starting to acknowledge their true strength. On the other you had a declining house who were living on one hell of a nostalgia trip and were still mourning a good king (Aerys granddad and uncle died at Summerhall) who died mostly because he wasn’t allowed to rule well by those who pledged allegiance to him. That brought friction between the two groups and also explain why Aerys was so hostile to Tywin (whom rumour started to spread out that he was the real king) and to Brandon (who barged in KL to challenge the king). 

Don’t take me wrong, I am not justifying Aerys in any way. I am only explaining why the Targs overreacted the way they did. 

The executions of the Starks is not overreacting in my opinion.  I believe in the Southron Conspiracy and by the king's laws, those men were traitors already.  

13 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

If Rickard Stark had "southern ambitions" then they weren't very good ones. Barbrey Dustin is a bitter old hag; let's not try to make sense of her and Aerys' paranoia plz.

 

I guess I see Barbrey Dustin differently than you do.  I see her as a smart lady who was keenly aware of the politics going on during Rickard's lordship and up to today during Roose Bolton's lordship.  Those marriage engagements were public and anyone with any sense could see what the outcome would be.  Everyone knows the ruling Targaryens cannot allow those bonds to form or their days would be numbered.  Even without that quote from Cat's chapter and even without Lady Dustin's disclosure it is obvious the Starks and the Baratheons were already on their way to rebellion.  Just the plotting to gain power over your king is disloyal and an act of treason.  

Rickard deserved to get executed and so did Robert.  They were disloyal.  They wanted to build the military power to remove their lawful king. Removal means the murdering of the royal family so Brandon wasn't just acting on impulse.  Murder was in his heart for a long time before his sister was napped.  His family was already planning to depose their rightful rulers and that meant murdering the royal family.   Ned is a good man and I don't think he would have been comfortable with the murder of his king and his family but he had little say in the matter.  Ned is a good man but it doesn't mean elder brother Brandon was or his father Rickard was.  

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

15 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Bloodraven is a learned man.  He knew of the prophecies surrounding the PTWP.  He had access to the library at Castle Black and he had time to read up on the subject.  I say he let the rebellion happen.

Actually, it is impossible for Rickard, Brandon, and Robert to be innocent of conspiracy against the crown.  Common sense says the blood ties that those marriage alliances would create puts them in position to challenge the Targaryens.  That's not how a good subject behaves at the very least.  Those fathers were planning and plotting a coup.  I can give Jon Arryn the benefit of the doubt and say he just got dragged along but Rickard doesn't enjoy the same excuse. 

The executions should have been handled better.  It was a good decision to lure Rickard to KL.  Much better than marching an army to Winterfell and rooting him out.  Rickard and Brandon should have been swiftly executed in public.  There was no need for the Strangler and the Wildfire Cookout.  Robert should be killed but a more subtle way would have been better.  Wait for him to ride out of the bloody gate and ambush him is what I would do.  Ned and Benjen would have to die too but that could be done quietly.

Marrying of great lords is to put checks and balances on the king.  A weak and crazy king.  No different than something like demanding king John to sign the Magne Carter.  Aerys voided the feudal contract to his high lords and a rebellion followed. There is no treason restropective because the rebels who wanted change won.  Aerys vassals wanted to check him and he responded with killing them without true respect according to their customs, Rickard demanded a trail by battle.  If Aerys had one of his kings guard fight Rickard and Rickard loss there wouldn't have been any rebellion.  Aerys' madness lead him to void the feudal contract when he made wildfire his champion and then asking for the heads of Ned and Robert because he was paranoid.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 1:39 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

This guy has been watching over the realm from beneath the tree for a long time.  He saw the birth of Eddard and his siblings.  I'm sure he witnessed the births of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys.  He must have witnessed the conspirators plotting their treason.  I'm talking about Rickard, Brandon, Robert, and Jon Arryn planning to take over the throne.  As far as we know, Bloodraven didn't attempt to interfere.  And if he did, he was ineffective.  I understand that he's a greenseer not a god.  But still, you would think he would have interfered.  He could have warned Varys through the "little birds" who may be more than just little children.  He either tried to help and failed or chose not to interfere because the events have to fall a certain way to:

• Birth Daenerys and bring back the dragons.
• Birth Bran Stark.
• Get rid of Rickard, Brandon, Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and eventually Robert.  In other words, get rid of ineffective but influential people in leadership positions.

There is also the possibility that Bloodraven's ability to influence events in the 7K may still have been rather limited. He disappeared in 252, and RR didn't begin until 282, but who knows if he was even the 3EC at this point. He might have still been a student to some previous greenseer, or perhaps he had no teacher at all, having to learn everything on his own. Plus, we have the fact that much of the action during RR took place well to the south, where the weirnet is severely limited.

And then there is the possibility that BR was in fact influencing the rebellion, perhaps giving thoughts and dreams to the Mad King to drive him madder still.

And I'm still not convinced that the Others are the enemy in the War for the Dawn. They could be fleeing from whatever terror that BR showed Bran in his coma dream.