andy_wan_kenobi

The Child of Rheagar and Lyanna

235 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok so grammer aside, do you really not see the problem with what you are saying here... And say what you will about your fictional diagnosis, Braavos isn't a place you associate with hot sweet smells.

The hell with hot sweet smells in Braavos, that was a smell associated with Darry's disease, not the place, he would have smelled hot and sweet anywhere else, in Dorne or beyond the Wall.

Plus, did it somehow escape you that winter is coming, so even Braavos is getting much colder than it was?

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

On the one hand you say she was never treated like a princess, on the other you are saying she lived in a rich place (so rich it has a lemon tree growing outside in a climate that clearly doesn't support such trees), she had servants etc. The Sealord of Braavos has a Palace where many like to make up justifications for the lemon tree being part of his garden or something... but ya nothing like the Princess life?

First, rich (relatively)=/= a princess. Their original stay in Braavos was undoubtedly well financed and they lacked in nothing but that doesn't mean they dressed lavishly. Second, she definitely wasn't staying right in the Sealord's palace itself, that would be hard to mistake and I never claimed that. 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And come on, jewelry is literally the best thing to steal. if you are worried about it being "tracked" wouldn't you just melt it down?

Ever tried to melt gold? Not as simple as khal Drogo made it seem. Plus you're ignoring the point about people usually keeping their jewellery locked.

 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And do the servants of the Sealord just loot and pillage at every rejeim change? seems odd... unless she wasn't staying with the Sealord, then we're back to the lemon tree... (this is setting aside the grass, 

And where is it stated they were the Sealord's own servants and not some hired nobodies with no particular loyalties? Nowhere. Nor is it stated, nor did anyone claim, that she was staying right with the Sealord and not merely in some property of his or whatever. You assume a lot of stuff which doesn't fit your theory but seem to discard that that is not an only option.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Presumably the servants are not the same as the ones to leave dragonstone, I'm asking what happened to the four loyal men?

They were never ever mentioned afterwards. Perhaps they were loyal enough to help smuggle the kids from DS but so loyal as to devote their whole life to the service of a lost cause.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The story as a whole, the way it is given to us is either intentionally full of holes or just remarkably poorly thought out compared to the rest of the series, I'm gonna go with intentional until we get more books that say otherwise.

You repeating that there are a lot of holes doesn't make it so, and you seem to be conveniently ignoring the holes in your theory. If Dany's memories of the house with red door don't include Viserys, then how come she doesn't remember meeting him only afterwards? How come that no-one in Westeros doesn't bat a lash over a sudden appearance of a princess who must have been found under a gooseberry bush?

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The lemon tree is nice, and clearly harped on, but isn't even necessary to make the connection. I'm certainly not the only one to propose this though I've been saying it for years even on this forum. I had suspicions about Jon, Dany and Tyrion early on, but the theories have clearly evolved with lots of input/support/debate with others.

None of your clues are necessary for your theory. All that is necessary is for you to believe it is so. And that should tell you all you need to know about the paucity of evidence that supports this idea. Where are the parts of the text that are vital to your theory? The quotes that show Dany could not be who she says she is? The quotes that show the involvement of forces in a conspiracy to pass her off as Daenerys Stormborn? And most importantly, why they should do such a stupid thing?

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Dragonstone doesn't seem to be a days sail from King's landing, but rulers I suppose... either way it isn't a midnight flight if you leave in the morning.

It is about the same distance as the Wall is long. Or about 300 miles. Not the distance a real world sailing ship can travel in one day. It is highly likely a morning departure from King's Landing would entail some midnight sailing on its way to Dragonstone. I'd be interested if you have any sailing times between the two places that puts this at less than a day's voyage. I can't find any, but perhaps you have a quote or two to validate your idea? 

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I could go through his point by point but most of it is addressed above. I'm not saying Viserys and Rhaella didn't go to dragonstone, or that she didnt die in childbirth, but we get no witnesses to the events there besides Viserys.

Because we have, as yet, no eyewitness accounts other than Viserys's own does that mean we should discount anything Viserys has to say? in the quote in my previous post, Dany clearly tells us Viserys blames her for Rhaella's death. Not some other secret real sister, but her. Not only does his account provide a first hand account of the voyage to Dragonstone, the fact of Rhaella's pregnancy, the death of Rhaella in childbirth, the birth of Dany there on Dragonstone, and the way Ser Willem smuggles both children to safety, but it also shows Viserys believes the Dany we know is the sister who was born on Dragonstone. All of which is agreed to by everyone else in the story. Perhaps, we will someday get another eyewitness that contradicts Viserys, but until then we have no reason to not believe his story.

There is this huge mountain of textual evidence showing Dany is Dany, and all I'm seeing is mountains of wild conjecture forming the basis of your theory.

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Stannis saying he was blamed for their escape doesn't indicate that anyone saw a baby who was taken with Darry and Viserys.

It shows that Stannis believes there was such a babe. He was in the place to do such an investigation about what happened on Dragonstone and he had the responsibility to do so and report back to his brother. What makes you think he was wrong in his conclusion? It can't be all the other sources that agree with him.

And, once again, Viserys was with his sister when she came aboard the ship to Braavos along with her wet nurse.

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I don't think Dany remember's Viserys in the House with the red door. It's ok we can disagree here. I think those early quotes are intentionlyy meant to be read a certain way, but there is no denying the whole chapter is filled with Dany's doubt.

Yet she remembers the "they" who were forced out of the big house with the red door after Ser Willem's death. She remembers that it was her brother who kept them running from one place to another to avoid the usurper's spies and knives. I don't know how much clearer you want it that she remembers just what you say she doesn't.

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You are quoting Robert saying Dany and Viserys were easy to get to, but that could be at any point over the last many years. 

Then you say they were well protected, I don't know what you are talking about here or how that fits with your quote? It doesn't make sense to me.

Robert himself says he can't get to Daenerys and Viserys when Ned asks him if he can. He blames Illyrio and his eunuch guards for making it too hard to get to them. The point of the quote, however, is that Robert confirms that early on Viserys and Dany were together in exile, and he blames himself for listening to Jon Arryn for not trying to kill them both when he could. Do we know this is in the days they were in Braavos? Not for sure, but we know Robert's spies place them together, and that is just one more piece of evidence from a different source doing just that.

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The "Stormborn" means nothing. It is how she is announced at the meeting with Drogo, and presumably how she had been announced during the rest of her travels... almost as if someone was carting her all over the continent, from city to city, showing her off to reinforce the truth of this story. 

And trusting the citadel teachings is frankly hysterical...

It is just another piece of history giving us Dany's background. I'm really not sure why you think they made up the title or what the relevance of such a change is for your theory. It certainly isn't necessary for your version of this idea that the title is a lie. I can only see an attempt to cast doubt on any of Dany's memories or Viserys's stories as the reason for questioning the storm during her birth. You, unlike others who spin this theory, agree Rhaella died in childbirth on Dragonstone. What is the importance for your version that the monster storm Viserys's reports didn't happen?

The citadel's teaching is just another party heard from that supports Viserys's story. One that has no reason to support a lie made to hide a false Dany.

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Anyway I'll be back around and try to do a better job explaining... but happy friday all

And happy Friday as well to you.

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41 minutes ago, PCK said:

When all of the clues point to x, the answer isn't y or z.

All the clues pointed to Hillary Clinton and the answer wasn't x.

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Another misconception. Nowhere does it say Rhaella sailed in the morning.

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Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship

Let's say "the day she left for Dragonstone" was a Monday. On "the morning of the day she left" i.e. Monday morning, she departed the Red Keep in her royal wheelhouse and made her way down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship. We don't know what time in the morning it was, but "morning" is anything up to 11.59 am. So she drives down the steep hill in her creaky wheelhouse, has all of her things loaded (and presumably her son and his things) onto the ship, settles into her cabin to no doubt rest after her brutal treatment the previous night, and then waits for the tide.

All of that needn't have happened in the morning. Her departure from the Red Keep was in the morning, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have sailed from King's Landing later in the day.  And with the news from the Trident, she's better off sitting on the ship ready to make a quick getaway than trapped in the Red Keep.

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On 4/21/2017 at 2:01 AM, LynnS said:

The controversies will be big news.  Fans will want to know!  I don't think he needs to publish before the show concludes and it may be more advantageous to wait.

Possibly.  But unless things have changed and I haven't heard -- which is definitely possible since I don't exactly hang on D&D's every word -- HBO isn't even sure when, or how, the show will end. 

There will definitely absolutely only be seven seasons, they said repeatedly... but now it seems somehow there will be eight seasons. 

Will there be a movie that is the actual finish of the show, as has been suggested?  Multiple movies?  Or will the movie(s) be a prequel?  Or will there be no movies, but instead, a prequel spinoff show?   Or will a spinoff show not be a prequel, but instead do something else?

It doesn't seem very clear, but whatever it is, it seems largely to be driven by HBO's profit goals as opposed to some sort of logical storytelling.  Surprise, surprise... they've been doing this ridiculous thing of splitting the last season in two at least since The Sopranos, which had one of the worst series finales I've ever seen, ranking right up there with Lost's and BSG's in the pantheon of televisual crap.

And for GRRM, all this uncertainty is a scheduling debacle if his idea really is to wait until HBO is totally done.

Edited by JNR

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

And for GRRM, all this uncertainty is a scheduling debacle if his idea really is to wait until HBO is totally done.

I hadn't heard of this other stuff but since listening to an interview posted by Fattest Leach; I was struck by Martin's comment that he was having difficulty writing Bran's POV.  Something tells me that this difficulty has something to do with saying good-bye to the character and perhaps the reason for the delay in publishing as well. 

It certainly seems like D&D are holding out for something more from Martin by splitting the season.   Or it could be something as mundane as scheduling conflicts with the actors.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Possibly.  But unless things have changed and I haven't heard -- which is definitely possible since I don't exactly hang on D&D's every word -- HBO isn't even sure when, or how, the show will end. 

No, they're sure. It will end after Season 8, which will be 6 episodes, following 7 episodes in Season 7.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I was struck by Martin's comment that he was having difficulty writing Bran's POV.  Something tells me that this difficulty has something to do with saying good-bye to the character and perhaps the reason for the delay in publishing as well. 

That would make sense, but another option, and one I like too, is that Bran is just a bright and curious kid who is right on the verge of learning way too damn much.

What will he do, do you suppose, given the power to investigate anything he wants from anywhere in Westeros' past? 

Of course he'll look into his family, the history of Winterfell, and anything else, going back as far in time as the whim takes him.

All of which deeply threatens GRRM as a storyteller because man, he's sure worked hard to keep his secrets from being spoiled.  And here one of his own characters is blowing the lid off of it all!  :D

But if he writes Bran in such a way that that doesn't happen, obviously other things have to happen.  And I'm pretty sure they are not going to be the kooky things D&D gave us.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It certainly seems like D&D are holding out for something more from Martin by splitting the season.

That seems quite possible. 

A friend of mine suggested recently that the reason I can't figure out what they're doing with certain mysteries is... that they themselves don't know.  That they are just leaving their doors logically open by dropping various clues, not all of which will be meaningful, and hoping GRRM will toss them useful info in TWOW, at which point they can say "Aha!" and write it into season eight, and then pretend that was their plan all along.

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1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

No, they're sure. It will end after Season 8, which will be 6 episodes, following 7 episodes in Season 7.

That's true, that does seem pretty clear now.

However, when I said "the show" what I really meant was "the alternate fictional universe of the show and the show's storyline."  Will that storyline end with the end of the show proper, or continue in some form?

This was still in some doubt as of last year.

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If you read between the lines of the recent public conversation about how long Game of Thrones will continue on HBO, there seem to be two camps. On the one hand, HBO president Michael Lombardo said, “Would I love the show to go 10 years as both a fan and a network executive? Absolutely.” Meanwhile, show creator Dan Weiss said that if they “try to push it” pass their planned run of 13 more episodes after this season, their fear is that Game of Thrones “falls apart and loses its heat.” Weiss, David Benioff, and Lombardo seem to have reached a compromise of two final shortened seasons, but there’s a third option that would keep the world of Westeros alive and well on HBO: a spin-off. And author George R.R. Martin is game.

I also recall there's been talk at various times of a movie serving as the true conclusion to the series, from both GRRM and some Lord Paramount at HBO who might have been Lombardo. 

ETA: Yeah, it was Lombardo.

GRRM seems to like that idea a lot:

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I see that this new crop of stories also raises, once again, the notion of concluding the series with one or more feature films. And in some of these stories, once again, this idea is wrongly attributed to me. Let me state, yet again, that while I love this idea, it did NOT originate with me. It was a notion suggested to me, which I have enthusiastically endorsed

Do you know if all that has been shut down, and we're definitely looking at the conclusion of the storyline with the last episode of season eight?

Edited by JNR

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As far as D&D are concerned, yes the story ends at S8E6. They're on record saying they won't be involved in any spin-offs, so they will finish telling their version of ASOIAF next year.

Any D&E, Robert's Rebellion or Dance of Dragons movies/series made by HBO will be with entirely different producers.

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1 hour ago, maudisdottir said:

Any D&E, Robert's Rebellion or Dance of Dragons movies/series made by HBO will be with entirely different producers.

Thanks!  This is good to know since I've increasingly lost faith in D&D. 

Still leaves open the question of whether GRRM will get his way and the show story will actually conclude with one or more movies, though.  I'm not sure if I'd prefer that... unless, of course, GRRM wrote and directed them both.  (But if he did, each movie would take six years.)

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On the topic of the pact signed by Ser Willem Darry, Prince Oberyn Martell, and witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos. I wanted to post some information about the range of time we can say this took place. First, we know from A Feast for Crows, that Arianne was fourteen years old when she read her father's letter to her brother, Quentyn, showing his plans for his son to follow him to the lordship of Dorne. This then is the latest possible date by which the pact was made. Because we know Arianne was born in the year 276 we know that means the year 290 to her name day in 291 is the one end of the range for when this takes place.

We also know Dany is born in 284, and that is the year with the events on Dragonstone with the escape of the Targaryens from the island and the arrival of Stannis's rebel navy. Thus we know the arrival of the Targaryens with Darry in Braavos in the year 284 is the the other end of the range for this event. A span of six or seven years. That is a maximum range that doesn't take into account other things. Darry's death takes place when Dany is barely able to remember him. This would argue that the pact was signed either right around this time or before that. With Dany at the age of three to four likely as the time period in which Darry dies. That would put the most likely time for the pact to be in 284 to 288. I hope that helps in ordering some of these events.

If I can figure out any better way to narrow down the range, I will post it.

Edited by SFDanny

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I'm not very good with timelines (er, that was an understatement) but I seem to vaguely recall some information about a Sealord's death from Syrio. Not sure if this might be any help.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I'm not very good with timelines (er, that was an understatement) but I seem to vaguely recall some information about a Sealord's death from Syrio. Not sure if this might be any help.

I'm aware of Syrio speaking to Arya about the death of the First Blade of Braavos before him. It talks about it in his story about "true seeing." But I don't see anything that connects that death to a useful timeline. Syrio in nine years the First Sword, so we know that the death is at least that long ago 289 or before, but if it ties in with the Sealord who signed the pact I can't tell. Nor can we be sure when Syrio left the service of the Sealord. I'm trying to go over Arya's chapter's in Braavos for any clues. Thanks for the suggestion.

Perhaps, @Rhaenys_Targaryen might have a suggestion?  Know of any other way to narrow down the timeline of when the secret marriage pact was signed, and Ser Willem died?

Edited by SFDanny

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