shardofNarsil

Tyrion's killing of Tywin was an over reaction?

64 posts in this topic

In every Tyrion chapter he complains how his life is hard as a dwarf and a son of Tywin when in fact he enjoys luxuries very few people in the world enjoys.He knows about Tywin's hatred of prostitutes because of Tytos even then he takes no heed and keep doing the things Tywin hates the most.He most stupidly marries the first girl that shows any affection to him without thinking about the consequences.He knows that Tywin has a particular mistrust and hatred for lowborn women trying to marry the Lannisters mostly because of how his father was coaxed by his mistress which was in Tywin's eyes was an insult not only to the honor of House Lannister but to the memory of his mother as well.

He must have known he was a source of disgrace for the House Lannister and Tywin just by being a dwarf in the world of Westeros where House honor is everything even then he got the top-notch education a man can get in Westeros along with the comfortable life of a highborn.He should have shown some appreciation for Tywin or should have atleast tried to look at things from his perspective .And if he hated Tywin so much he should have taken the black instead of enjoying the privileges granted to him only because of Tywin.

Tywin being Tywin went  for the harshest measure to teach Tyrion the hard lesson about whores .But Tyrion like the sad guy he is never quite learned his lesson and even when Tywin tried to show some appreciation for his limited but important abilities by giving him the important job of being the Hand he was still thankless.

And after Jaime tells him about Tysha he goes all misty-eyed.Even though he is responsible for their marriage and most lords of Westeros would have killed her whereas Tywin after his  twisted lesson actually lets her live.

Quote

A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. “My wife,” he croaked. “She wed me.”

I mean do we even know if she had a choice in marrying him,him being the son of Lord Tywin and her being so poor and orphan .For all we know Tyrion being loved by a girl for the first time was so excited he made her marry him.And at that time he was about 13-14  and he might have just added some details subconsciously over the years  to conform to his idealised fantasy.

Tywin was no saint but he was his father all the same and over all these years he kept him alive whether because of Jaime/Kevan,him being Joanna's son or because of the curse of kinslaying and Tywin never tortured Tyrion in that way again and all his actions were only for the good of House Lannister. Tyrion killing him was an over reaction which put their whole house and his nephew's and niece's live in jeopardy .If he really wanted to kill anyone he should have gone for Cersei instead of Tywin.

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If Tywin hated whores so much then why was he sleeping with the one his son had?

#StopBeingaTywinApologist2017
#StopBlamingTyrion for the atrocities his father did to him 2000forever

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"Should have shown some appreciation"

Tywin had 50 soldiers rape Tyrion's wife.  There is no room for bullshit talk about mercy or lessons, family obligations or unsourced, insane talk about a forced marriage.  Tywin had it coming for a VERY long time.  LOL @ "overreaction".  This was one of the most justified killings in all the books. 

Get real, OP. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Renly's Banana said:

If Tywin hated whores so much then why was he sleeping with the one his son had?

#StopBeingaTywinApologist2017
#StopBlamingTyrion for the atrocities his father did to him 2000forever

What did Tyrion thought was gonna happen, by that time he should've gotten some idea about Tywin's obsession with Lannister honor ?It was completely irresponsible of Tyrion to marry a villager .It was wrong on so many levels ,firstly she might be unintentionally pressured by a drunk Tyrion to marry him,she can't just refuse the son of Tywin ,she might just be a young girl impressed by their courage or maybe money .After all it was Jaime who kicked ass not the dwarf ,she might have wanted to sleep with Jaime not the dwarf.

And yes Tywin went to extreme measure but that is one of the things he was most afraid of - seeing a Lannister marry a lowborn and bringing shame onto their family.You have to understand that House Lannister was shamed by the acts of Tytos and his mistress and that left a deep impression on young Tywin,since his adulthood Tywin has been working tirelessly toward the singular goal of bringing House Lannster to their former glory.

Tywin takes no joy in torturing Tyrion or else he might have taught  some more even harsher lessons to Tyrion.

Edited by shardofNarsil
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Tyrion was on death row, and was escaping, aside from all the other things we know.

Shard, are you a law student?:)

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11 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

"Should have shown some appreciation"

Tywin had 50 soldiers rape Tyrion's wife.  There is no room for bullshit talk about mercy or lessons, family obligations or unsourced, insane talk about a forced marriage.  Tywin had it coming for a VERY long time.  LOL @ "overreaction".  This was one of the most justified killings in all the books. 

Get real, OP. 

 

Every highborn person has an obligation to their family and house ,to maintain the status quo in those times.You can't just marry anyone you love especially not one as lowborn as her and of doubtful intentions.House Lannister had already suffered such coupling once although it was no marriage but it shamed their house nevertheless,and Lord Tywin was no worse than many other lords in Westeros in protecting his house's honor.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Shard, are you a law student?:)

No ,why :blushes: .

 

Quote

Tyrion was on death row, and was escaping, aside from all the other things we know

Now that you say it like that it reminds me of Prison Break ,Michael getting his brother Linc who is on death row out of the prison.

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2 minutes ago, shardofNarsil said:

 

Every highborn person has an obligation to their family and house ,to maintain the status quo in those times.You can't just marry anyone you love especially not one as lowborn as her and of doubtful intentions.House Lannister had already suffered such coupling once although it was no marriage but it shamed their house nevertheless,and Lord Tywin was no worse than many other lords in Westeros in protecting his house's honor.

 

 

So what you're saying is that you, a 21st century reader of these books, prefer the moral system of a world where Tywin Lannister goes unpunished to our own?

Next you'll be saying that Jeyne Poole should stop whimpering so much at what her lord husband is doing to her.

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1 minute ago, velo-knight said:

So what you're saying is that you, a 21st century reader of these books, prefer the moral system of a world where Tywin Lannister goes unpunished to our own?

Next you'll be saying that Jeyne Poole should stop whimpering so much at what her lord husband is doing to her.

I am saying no such thing.

Tyrion should've known better than to marry a crofter's daughter, he was a keen reader so he must have known how feudal societies work and he must  have also known the consequences of going out of line in matters of marriages.After all in those times marriages weren't just a personal affair like they are now.They were the primary method of forming alliances and the honor of one's House was tied with their match.So by doing what he did Tyrion was not only putting the House Lannister image to dirt but reminding Tywin of the times of his own childhood when his father shamed their House and family by bringing a lowborn whore to the high seat of his Lady mother.

Lord Tywin is no Ramsay Bolton, he doesn't take any pleasure in doing these things .But his father's mockery during his childhood made him the hard man he is .

Quote

Wars, battles, murders most foul... I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son’s as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed.”

 

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Just to be clear ,I am not putting the blame on the poor crofter's daughter,she was a young girl like Sansa and lowborn at that ,even if she wanted to resist she couldn't have not with the fear of Tywin Lannsiter looming over her.She might have thought it as some kind of game the young lord wanted to play or maybe she was just naive like Sansa but Tyrion had no right putting her in Tywin's crosshairs.

Even if it was some other Lord it was not going to end well for her ,for all we know some she could've been killed like Roose Bolton did or silenced in some other ways .

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@shardofNarsil don't waste your breath complaining about St. Tyrion here.  I very much doubt lots of the details Tyrion gives us about the Tysha story, and there's many of us who agree that maybe there is more than meets the eye (like maybe Tywin told her she could take the gold and the men or take nothing and leave, or maybe it was a setup between her and the men who were threatening her to hoodwink Tyrion into "saving" her and getting his gold) with lots of supporting evidence on our side, but people hate hearing anything that doesn't make Tywin evil and Tyrion godly on this forum.  I'm surprised no one has threatened to have 100 men rape you yet, they get really worked up about it.

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4 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@shardofNarsil don't waste your breath complaining about St. Tyrion here.  I very much doubt lots of the details Tyrion gives us about the Tysha story, and there's many of us who agree that maybe there is more than meets the eye (like maybe Tywin told her she could take the gold and the men or take nothing and leave, or maybe it was a setup between her and the men who were threatening her to hoodwink Tyrion into "saving" her and getting his gold) with lots of supporting evidence on our side, but people hate hearing anything that doesn't make Tywin evil and Tyrion godly on this forum.  I'm surprised no one has threatened to have 100 men rape you yet, they get really worked up about it.

Yeah it is entirely possible that she wasn't so innocent after all .Interesting theory there .Also interesting is the fact that Tywin didn't killed her.

He also doesn't think of this episode as being particularly important.

Quote

“You’ve given me less than that, all my life, but you’ll give me this. What did you do with Tysha?”
“Tysha?”
He does not even remember her name. “The girl I married.”
“Oh, yes. Your first whore.”

This might mean that Tyrion has made up this incident in his mind as completely different from what actualy happened.Maybe Tywin was right and she was malignant after all.

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That's what I've been saying.  There was a thread on why Tywin didn't let Tyrion visit the free cities a few weeks back where I go into more detail.  It is still too convenient that a woman, almost raped and presumably traumatized, climbs in bed and feels so free and loving with the imp mere hours later.  And since Tyrion, as much as he tried, clearly didn't understand Shae's actual motives and character until he found her in Tywin's bed, why should we believe he at 13 understood Tysha's or understands them now after all these years to romanticize and brood.  Tywin might very well have been right except for the part where he told Jaime to say he paid for her.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, shardofNarsil said:

most lords of Westeros would have killed her whereas Tywin after his  twisted lesson actually lets her live.

Most lords? Randyl Tarly maybe, but I never got the impression that most lords would have killed a lowborn for marrying their son. Also, Tyrion was, what, 13/14 when he married Tysha? How was anyone, let alone a teenager, supposed to predict Tywin would order her to be raped by 100 men + Tyrion? That's an excessively cruel act for such a minor offence.

Not killing Tyrion is a really low bar. A child should not have to be "thankful" their father kept them alive and well-fed. Nor should he have to take emotional and sexual abuse in exchange for the "privilege" of having access to the same family resources their siblings have.

ETA: what does it matter if Tysha married Tyrion for his money? That's no justification for being raped repeat repeatedly. That's sick, and an exaggeration to say that's the norm in Westeros.

Edited by Hodor the Articulate

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Well, this thread is going to be closed soon (the mods generally don't like rape apology). We know the story Tyrion believes happened as it did because Jaime admitted to lying about Tysha to Tyrion. Tywin made him lie, remember?

I'm sorry, but there is never a justification for rape. Let alone of rape of a young girl by an entire barrack of soldiers plus her husband. That I have to type those words makes me depressed.

And, shocker, of course Tyrion didn't learn the lesson Tywin wanted to teach him. Sexually assaulting a 13 year old boy rarely produces positive results.

Tywin's a monster. Whatever Tyrion is or isn't (saint or demon, take your pick) he did not deserve to be treated the way he was by his father. Perhaps if his father had treated him with even a modicum of respect and showed a crumb of love, Tyrion wouldn't have married Tysha. Tywin deserved no better than dying on the toilet, murdered by the very monster he created. Hell, he deserved far, far worse.

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No one is apologizing for rape.  In other threads I have acknowledged that Tywin told Jaime to lie and say she was a whore he paid for.  I am suggesting it is possible that she consented to taking all the men and the gold instead of taking a beating and being thrown out empty handed.  I abhor rape, I abhor Varamyr Sixskins ans Ser Gregor and all of that.  I am just saying I don't believe we know enough facts about this incident that clearly was the biggest impact in a major characters formation.

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3 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

it is possible that she consented to taking all the men and the gold instead of taking a beating and being thrown out empty handed.

Still rape.

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@shardofNarsil

Tyrion was a 13-year-old boy who had spent all of his short life living mostly by himself and being neglected and humiliated by his father. No he did not force Tysha to marry him, I literally have no idea where you're getting this from. No he did not "get off" to her being raped. No Tywin is not merciful by letting her live, nor is it standard ANYWHERE to treat your child like that.

I could write more, but we've actually had this conversation before. And I don't feel like rehashing all the same points. 
Tyrion is spoiled and he does have a lot of pompous insecurities about himself, but Tywin is a narcissistic, hypocrite monster who wouldn't have been killed if he had showed a modicum of care for his children. 

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Damn. I had a lovely, coherent post all ready and it wouldn't post.

OP, I came up with some stunning arguments about why you're wrong. It boils down to these facts though...

Tywin is fine with most of his dealings but when it gets personal, he turns evil...especially when Tyrion is involved.

Tyrion was temporarily insane (by modern standards) when he killed Tywin. After years of abuse, he snapped.

Tywin's treatment of Tysha is not justifiable and is not his standard method as shown by the way he dealt with his father's mistress--a woman who wore his mother's jewels. If it was just about social climbing and the family pride, he would have had the girl parade through the streets naked and be done with it.

The other lords of Westeros would not have killed her. They would have gotten the marriage annulled and threatened or paid the girl to disappear. History is replete with cases of such things.

Tyrion is Tywin's son. Just as Tywin overdid things with the Reynes, the Tarbecks, and Tysha, it is no surprise that Tyrion finally snapped. But the term over-reaction is wrong because it implies that there could have been a normal or standard reaction, something which was not possible in the circumstances.

There is no way a hormone-addled 13 year old boy in the presences of a pretty face is going to think about family pride. 

If you have a problem with all of this, take it up with the author please. He set that scene up from the first chapter in which Tyrion appeared.

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2 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

No one is apologizing for rape.  In other threads I have acknowledged that Tywin told Jaime to lie and say she was a whore he paid for.  I am suggesting it is possible that she consented to taking all the men and the gold instead of taking a beating and being thrown out empty handed.  I abhor rape, I abhor Varamyr Sixskins ans Ser Gregor and all of that.  I am just saying I don't believe we know enough facts about this incident that clearly was the biggest impact in a major characters formation.

How about the fact that there is literally no evidence to suggest this except 'well it could have happened'? That it takes one of the most shocking twists in the book and undoes it? That the only person who could reveal this is Tysha herself?

Even if your idea is correct, are you really telling me that forcing your son to watch his wife have sex with an entire barracks of men, then force him to have sex with her is a good way to 'teach him a lesson?'

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