Frederic_ed

What future events from the books can we REALLY imply from the show

105 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

If Martin doesn't finish the series it really won't matter what any of us believe about the endgame. But that aside, I see that you're trying to put it all on Martin, but that's a logical fallacy. Yes, he told them the end. He also told them about Ramsay, but they obviously didn't understand his relevance as a character until they actually read ADWD. And about Summer and Rickon, yes, I'm fairly confident that they're going to play much, much more important roles than in the show, but of course I have no way of knowing will they survive through the end of the series or not (though I do think they likely will, since unexpectedly many Starks and direwolves died already, so it'd become tiring if that keeps repeating). So again, you're basing your predictions entirely on D&D's rationale. If you think that's a rational thing to do, what can I say?

Well, it will, because then the only end would be the GOT end, that end would become the canon ending; and Martin will either say 'yes' this is how it ends or not.  My guess is he will play it coy as he has generally done, and tell people to wait for the phantom books.  But, we disagree on the ability to use the show as a predictor for the books.  Your position is not going to change until the series is finished by George RR Martin or he states publicly something that confirms XYZ that the show does.  

And yes, I do put it all on Martin, who else is responsible for this mess?  Who sold the story to Dan and Dave?  Who is still not finished with Winds of Winter at now SIX years since Dance and no publication date in sight.  

Lastly, for what it's worth, I don't think Ramsay is an important character, he will be dead soon, either killed by Stannis forces or his father or Jon's forces.  

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Well, it will, because then the only end would be the GOT end, that end would become the canon ending; and Martin will either say 'yes' this is how it ends or not.  My guess is he will play it coy as he has generally done, and tell people to wait for the phantom books.  But, we disagree on the ability to use the show as a predictor for the books.  Your position is not going to change until the series is finished by George RR Martin or he states publicly something that confirms XYZ that the show does.  

And yes, I do put it all on Martin, who else is responsible for this mess?  Who sold the story to Dan and Dave?  Who is still not finished with Winds of Winter at now SIX years since Dance and no publication date in sight.  

Lastly, for what it's worth, I don't think Ramsay is an important character, he will be dead soon, either killed by Stannis forces or his father or Jon's forces.  

So let's see: there were few instances so far in which we're able to see how accurate the show actually is in foreshadowing the books. Those instances are Ramsay in season two, Shireen in season two, Stannis downfall, Jon's resurrection, Barristan's role in Meereen, and so on. In none of those instances the show proved to be a good indicator of what is going to happen in the books. None! Everything that the show "foreshadowed" so far, we can divide in two groups: those that are already proven wrong, and those that we have no way of knowing how accurate they will or won't be.

The only exceptions are cases like Shireen's burning and Hodor's death, which D&D publicly disclosed as something that Martin revealed to them. As they say, those exception actually confirm the rule. And the rule is: not a single thing about future books is possible to predict based on the show.

And no, the show will never "become the canon ending", regardless of what Martin does or does not with the series. Think if you want that Tyrells were always meant to be wiped out in a big wildfire explosion, but that's just too juvenile for my taste.

And about TWOW, if Martin didn't plan something significantly better than what we've seen in the show, then the world is better off without TWOW and ADOS. But if he did, and if his plan needs more time to be perfected and executed, so be it. It's not as if I don't have anything to do with my life until he finishes his books. And if that makes him "responsible" for this mess, again, so be it.

Of course, he undoubtedly is responsible for selling the story to D&D. But I'm not sure how that helps your case that we are to trust D&D of all people and their storytelling reasoning.

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18 minutes ago, StepStark said:

So let's see: there were few instances so far in which we're able to see how accurate the show actually is in foreshadowing the books. Those instances are Ramsay in season two, Shireen in season two, Stannis downfall, Jon's resurrection, Barristan's role in Meereen, and so on. In none of those instances the show proved to be a good indicator of what is going to happen in the books. None! Everything that the show "foreshadowed" so far, we can divide in two groups: those that are already proven wrong, and those that we have no way of knowing how accurate they will or won't be.

The only exceptions are cases like Shireen's burning and Hodor's death, which D&D publicly disclosed as something that Martin revealed to them. As they say, those exception actually confirm the rule. And the rule is: not a single thing about future books is possible to predict based on the show.

And no, the show will never "become the canon ending", regardless of what Martin does or does not with the series. Think if you want that Tyrells were always meant to be wiped out in a big wildfire explosion, but that's just too juvenile for my taste.

And about TWOW, if Martin didn't plan something significantly better than what we've seen in the show, then the world is better off without TWOW and ADOS. But if he did, and if his plan needs more time to be perfected and executed, so be it. It's not as if I don't have anything to do with my life until he finishes his books. And if that makes him "responsible" for this mess, again, so be it.

Of course, he undoubtedly is responsible for selling the story to D&D. But I'm not sure how that helps your case that we are to trust D&D of all people and their storytelling reasoning.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.  Season 2 of GOT came out after Dance, there is nothing to "predict".  So, I don't understand what you are saying about Shireen and Ramsay or what has been 'proven wrong' from the show, other than the moronic Sansa storyline.

 

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.  Season 2 of GOT came out after Dance, there is nothing to "predict".  So, I don't understand what you are saying about Shireen and Ramsay or what has been 'proven wrong' from the show, other than the moronic Sansa storyline.

 

But it was written before ADWD got out. But even that's not the point. The point is that based on season 2 someone who didn't read ADWD can never predict Ramsay's importance in ADWD. Same for Shireen, because based on season 2, where she doesn't exist even (neither Mel nor Stannis even mention her), non-reader could never predict that she's going to be important (assuming that her death will have a much bigger importance in the books than in the show). Not to mention Barristan, who already is way more important in the books than what any non-reader can predict based on the show. And at the end, since we're all non-readers so far in regards to TWOW and ADOS, it's obvious that we can't predict anything based on the show, at least not with any level of certainty.

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7 hours ago, StepStark said:

But it was written before ADWD got out. But even that's not the point. The point is that based on season 2 someone who didn't read ADWD can never predict Ramsay's importance in ADWD. Same for Shireen, because based on season 2, where she doesn't exist even (neither Mel nor Stannis even mention her), non-reader could never predict that she's going to be important (assuming that her death will have a much bigger importance in the books than in the show). Not to mention Barristan, who already is way more important in the books than what any non-reader can predict based on the show. And at the end, since we're all non-readers so far in regards to TWOW and ADOS, it's obvious that we can't predict anything based on the show, at least not with any level of certainty.

Of course you can't predict it with certainity. That is ideed an obvious conclusion. Even the showrunners said that. It depends on your personal opinion what you consider as a spoiler or a prediction. If you presuppose that every detaill will be in the show just like it is in the books, and every character arch will go the same way as in the books, then you may say that the show won't spoil or predict the books. If you do not claim that every detail in the show have to be like in the books, then you base your arguements on major plotpoints and the overall storyline, then the show will predict and spoil the books. Benioff and Weis said that the conclusion and the basic story will remain the same as in the books, but the path may vary. They have answered that question very honest. So it is up to everyone to take conclusions out of this. GRRM has given the same answer on his notablog before season six started. My point is that it is not an objective discussion whether the show predicts or spoils the books, since it depends on everyones opinion what prediction and spoiling means. Is it a spoiler that Jon becomes King in the North? Some might say yes. A huge spoiler. Some might say "nah...it is gonna happen totally different in the books, therefore I don't consider it a spoiler". Both answers are subjectivally correct. As I said, GRRM has given the same answer when asked if the show will spoil the books.

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Can anyone think of any season 5 and 6 events apart from Shireen's death and the origin of Hodor's name that are confirmed by D&D that they came from George, please?

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1 hour ago, Jenny of Dorne said:

Can anyone think of any season 5 and 6 events apart from Shireen's death and the origin of Hodor's name that are confirmed by D&D that they came from George, please?

No. And they won't because Weiss said in an interview (it can be found on youtube) that they don't want to spoil GRRM's books. Shireens death and Hodors name are also not spoiled, since they have never said how it will happen in the books or how the circumstances are gonna be. They just said "When George told us", which does not give much away, since it is clear that their storyline comes from tales of George. 

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On Invalid Date at 11:56 AM, StepStark said:

Even calling the show "a narrative" is a bit of a stretch at this point, considering all the inconsistencies and illogical turns D&D took with their writing. I'm constantly surprised by people deeming it "tighter" or "better edited" than the books. LOL! Just look at arguably the main story of the last two seasons, which was the rise and fall of Ramsay Bolton. Tighter, you say? Better edited? LOL!!!

Better edited than the books.  Look at books 4+5, pretty much just a colossal waste of time, they could have easily been condensed, with good editing, down to one book.  And lets see, the series has Dany done with the East which was always a side story and moving to the west, the series has the rise of the Others for what is supposed to be the great showdown, where are they in the books?  You claim that the last two seasons were all about the rise and fall of Ramsay, here I'll use your words, "laughable".  Did you even watch the last two seasons?  Oh and what is going on in book 5+6?  The rise and probably subsequent fall of Euron and company, evidently with a ton of child abuse of various forms thrown in as backstory.  Oh and chapter after chapter based on Sansa, excuse me "ALAYNE" and some bravo sierra with "Harry the Heir".  Gee, isn't that intriguing?  Here's the reality, the series is pushing to the end, GRRM isn't even close, in fact he's moving in the opposite direction..  Which is something he no doubt realizes and which is why I doubt he will ever write book 7 and I'm not sure that he finishes book 6.

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5 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Better edited than the books.  Look at books 4+5, pretty much just a colossal waste of time, they could have easily been condensed, with good editing, down to one book.  And lets see, the series has Dany done with the East which was always a side story and moving to the west, the series has the rise of the Others for what is supposed to be the great showdown, where are they in the books?  You claim that the last two seasons were all about the rise and fall of Ramsay, here I'll use your words, "laughable".  Did you even watch the last two seasons?  Oh and what is going on in book 5+6?  The rise and probably subsequent fall of Euron and company, evidently with a ton of child abuse of various forms thrown in as backstory.  Oh and chapter after chapter based on Sansa, excuse me "ALAYNE" and some bravo sierra with "Harry the Heir".  Gee, isn't that intriguing?  Here's the reality, the series is pushing to the end, GRRM isn't even close, in fact he's moving in the opposite direction..  Which is something he no doubt realizes and which is why I doubt he will ever write book 7 and I'm not sure that he finishes book 6.

Hey, don't forget Roose. His story in the show is edited simply brilliantly: first he's in, and then he's suddenly not any more. He's killed as if he never was a smart person in the first place, and then he's forgotten as if he never even existed in the first place. Fascinating, really. Martin should feel embarrassed for not using that method himself, along with all those other storytellers from Shakespeare to Tolstoy... They were boring us with those superfluous things like arcs and logic and complexity, when all the world needs is some D&D editing.

But sarcasm aside, let me answer your question: yes, I did watch the last two seasons. But have you even read the books? Better yet, have you even read my post? You managed to misunderstand even that! LOL!

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Posted (edited)

Stark once again ruling the North.

Jon becoming KITN.

Stannis defeating the Boltons but dying.

Arya back in Westeros.

The Vale helping the North.

Stark reunion in some way.

R+L=J

Margaery will die, possibly after the trial in the books.

Cersei will rule for the time being before YMBQ will cast her down.

Tommen's death.

Ser Barristan dying during Siege of Meereen and allowing Tyrion to take over much like in the show.

Daario will either die or leave Dany.

Bran becoming 3ER.

 

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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Posted (edited)

Just thought of another one:  Joramun's horn/the Horn of Winter is a dragon horn.    

It's always been a source of debate as to just how a horn could possibly bring down the Wall, well, now I think the show resolved the mystery.  The horn is a dragon horn (as I'm pretty sure some have speculated), and blowing it will lead to a series of events that culminates in a (wight) dragon destroying the Wall.

That's really the only plausible mechanism by which a horn could destroy the Wall imo, and it seems quite obvious with the benefit of hindsight.  Wight dragon on the show just clicked the pieces into place for me.  

Edited by Ser Wun Wun

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Posted (edited)

On 4.6.2017 at 1:35 AM, StepStark said:

Hey, don't forget Roose. His story in the show is edited simply brilliantly: first he's in, and then he's suddenly not any more. He's killed as if he never was a smart person in the first place, and then he's forgotten as if he never even existed in the first place. Fascinating, really. Martin should feel embarrassed for not using that method himself, along with all those other storytellers from Shakespeare to Tolstoy... They were boring us with those superfluous things like arcs and logic and complexity, when all the world needs is some D&D editing.

But sarcasm aside, let me answer your question: yes, I did watch the last two seasons. But have you even read the books? Better yet, have you even read my post? You managed to misunderstand even that! LOL!

Using Shakespeare and Tolstoy in the same sentence as GRRM is highly over the top. No bash on GRRM here, but he is nowhere near  to those literature giants.

Now to the books and the discussion above: 

Book 1-3 were excelent fantasy books, with a really good developing plot.

Book 4-5 were world building books. He lost himself in describing side characters and even developed new main characters (Euron, Victarion, The Martells, Aegon, Connington etc.), that he messed up to deliver a good story. A good author has allways control over his story. He lost it after Book 3. So many loose ends, so many dead ends. 

This also fits with the general critics of the books. If someone wants an honest review, it is necessary to look at objective readers, not fanboys on fansites that praises the book/show/world. The last two books got mediocre reviews. Book 4 got on fantasybookreview (the biggest page for reviewing fantasy books) a 7 out of 10. As a compatison Book 3 got 9.99/10 (nearly perfection). Book 5 was slightly better than 4 with 8,4 out of 10, mainly because it focuses back on the characters that were developed prior AFFC. All the other books are better than 9. You get the same reults on nearly every other review page. So it is generaly viewed that the last 2 books were at best mediocre. No where near the first three books. 

Links: 

AFFC

http://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/George-RR-Martin/A-Feast-For-Crows.html

ADWD

http://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/George-RR-Martin/A-Dance-With-Dragons.html

Edited by Dragonsbone

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And this reminds me myself with the Matrix movies. The first movie was excelent. The expectations for the sequels were huge. After watching the two sequels, and because I was such a huge fan of the first movie, I came out of the cinema, and thought they were kind of good. Not because the movies were good, but because the first movie was so good, that I kinda forced to believe myself that the sequels were just as good. I could not understand the people who had a different opinion. But years later, I rewatched them and begun realising that those movies -stand alone - are awfull.  The same goes with the Star Wars Prequels. This is what makes ASOIAF fans protect AFFC and AFWD. Now, I am not saying that those books were as bad as the movies I mentioned. I just think, that as a hardcore fan pf the books, it takes some times to objectively value those books. 

And maybe the same will be for myself with the TV Show Game of Thrones. Maybe the last two seasons weren't that great either. Maybe I am forcing my self to belive so. I honestly admitt that there are plot holes in the show, that can not be unseen. 

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I agree on most of the points you guys raised. And I think this is at least part of the reason GRRM is so slow on his book. 

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I agree on most of the points you guys raised. And I think this is at least part of the reason GRRM is so slow on his book. 

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.  I'm  pretty sure George has said in interviews before that he really loves surprising his readers and defying their expectations.  That he never wanted to write anything that was predictable.  

So the show spoiling 99% of his audience on his biggest twists and, soon, the fate of his main characters must have taken the wind right out of his sails.  

Edited by Ser Wun Wun

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I don't agree with the bashing of books 4 & 5. Clearly they represent act 2 of a 3 act play. They are the middle section that deals with the aftermath of act 1 (the War of the 5 Kings) and sets the pieces for act 3 (the Great War).  I think these middle books will make a lot more sense and will be much better appreciated when they can be seen in their proper context when the whole series is done. 

Books 4-5 also are a lot better when read as one book in a combined read that puts the chapters of both in approximate chronological order.

A lot of the dislike of these books is due to GRRM taking forever to get them out and taking forever to follow up on them.  

 

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10 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it.  I'm  pretty sure George has said in interviews before that he really loves surprising his readers and defying their expectations.  That he never wanted to write anything that was predictable.  

So the show spoiling 99% of his audience on his biggest twists and, soon, the fate of his main characters must have taken the wind right out of his sails.  

Yes, I agree. This also aligns with GRRM announcing that there will be a big twist in TWOW that cannot happen in the show (I can't remember whether it's because the TV character already died or whether they were never included in the show to begin with). GRRM loves confounding expectations and surprising his readers, so he went to the trouble of coming up with this big twist in TWOW that won't be spoiled by the show.

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I honestly think he fully finished Winds and Spring to some degree too because i feel like S8 delay is to open a "slot" for Winds release. Spring may come on 2020 so its not obvious he had it ready

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18 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

I honestly think he fully finished Winds and Spring to some degree too because i feel like S8 delay is to open a "slot" for Winds release. Spring may come on 2020 so its not obvious he had it ready

HBO would not schedule the series around the books.

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Yeah, I know his statement of January 2016 he mentioned 'letting HBO down' but other than yanking their chain in terms of them being ready to deal with PR in tandem with the book stuff, I don't see that him not getting the books finished is an issue for HBO.  In fact, truth be told, him malingering like this and not having gotten Winds out before Season 6 aired is a bonus for HBO.  The show is going to be the definitive 'take' on Westeros for a lot of people, and the show ending before the author ends is a bonus for HBO.  IMO

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