70 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Rhaegar was forced to join the battle under threat of torture for Lyanna.

I was considering something like this myself.  Aerys has the KG find Rhaegar and uses Lyanna as a hostage to get him to join the fight

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23 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

I was considering something like this myself.  Aerys has the KG find Rhaegar and uses Lyanna as a hostage to get him to join the fight

And Aerys didn't use the same threat to get Robert and Ned stop fighting because...?

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2 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

How about if the KG were Aerys' tracking party, and got there just ahead of Ned and co? 

So who had been guarding Lyanna before that, how did they find ToJ, why were they sent too late to affect anything that Rhaegar or the Rebels did, why did Aerys pick the two guys who were close to Rhaegar...?

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15 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I find the events around the ToJ incident to be very confusing.

How is it  two members of the KG accompany Rhaegar when he carries off Lyanna?

How is it Rhaegar allows Lyanna's father and brother to die under such hideous circumstances?

Why does Rhaegar only turn up for the military response to the RR after the Battle of the Bells?

Apparently GRRM has promised we'll have all the details of RR cleared up before the end of ASOIAF

In the meantime, as yet I only have questions, no theories.

Yet at the end of the day I can't help wondering if @Coolbeard the Exile hasn't the right of it:

 

The whole scene is rather ridicolous. The finest and most reasonable of all the men in westeros just start killing eachother without even trying to have a conversation. If the kingsguard mission was to keep lyanna and baby safe why did they stand right in the open and not in the tower with the defensive advantage. Ned is good and honourable why would the kingsguard fear he would kill lyanna and baby.

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And Aerys didn't use the same threat to get Robert and Ned stop fighting because...?

Because that would blow the cover story that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

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3 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The whole scene is rather ridicolous. The finest and most reasonable of all the men in westeros just start killing eachother without even trying to have a conversation. If the kingsguard mission was to keep lyanna and baby safe why did they stand right in the open and not in the tower with the defensive advantage. Ned is good and honourable why would the kingsguard fear he would kill lyanna and baby.

Perhaps their mission was not to keep her safe, but to sacrifice her and baby on a pyre to hatch a few dragon eggs. The three finest knights in the realm, one of whom is wielding a magic sword, are not going to cower behind a bunch of rocks when confronted by a small band of northern tree-worshipping rabble. And Ned's goodness and honorableness are unknown in the realm at this point.

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6 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

The whole scene is rather ridicolous. The finest and most reasonable of all the men in westeros just start killing eachother without even trying to have a conversation. If the kingsguard mission was to keep lyanna and baby safe why did they stand right in the open and not in the tower with the defensive advantage. Ned is good and honourable why would the kingsguard fear he would kill lyanna and baby.

Do you really need to be reminded that "our dreams are not always literal", i.e. the real scene might have gone a wee bit differently?

Besides, this is not about Ned killing Lyanna and the baby, this is about Ned, or his retinue, not keeping the secret from Robert. And we all know how Robert feels about murdered dragonlings.

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14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

GRRM did say that it was a fever dream and added that our dreams are not always literal, i.e. the dream shouldn't be taken as a recording of what transpired. Furthermore, for Ned it is an old dream, i.e. the likes of which he had dreamt before, some of its elements are labelled "as it had been in life" and he elaborates on some elements while awake - so while the dream is not precise, it is based on reality.

Thanks for all the explanations, @Ygrain

I appreciate your patience with a newbie. I learn a great deal from you!

Still, 

Quote

so while the dream is not precise, it is based on reality.

Based on a reality or based on a memory?

Edited by Prof. Cecily

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The ToJ as we know it has a million loose ends, it's undeniable. Only the next book (most probably) will tell us what really happened and, especially, why.

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10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Perhaps their mission was not to keep her safe, but to sacrifice her and baby on a pyre to hatch a few dragon eggs. The three finest knights in the realm, one of whom is wielding a magic sword, are not going to cower behind a bunch of rocks when confronted by a small band of northern tree-worshipping rabble. And Ned's goodness and honorableness are unknown in the realm at this point.

That is preddy crackpot :D

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Do you really need to be reminded that "our dreams are not always literal", i.e. the real scene might have gone a wee bit differently?

Besides, this is not about Ned killing Lyanna and the baby, this is about Ned, or his retinue, not keeping the secret from Robert. And we all know how Robert feels about murdered dragonlings.

It was i who made the point that the dream should not be taken literally.

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I highly doubt Lyanna was used as a threat by Aerys against Rhaegar. Aerys has no idea where Lyanna is. 

If he can use her as a threat, he would definately use it against Ned and Robert firstly, not Rhaegar. such as" surrender! otherwise Lyanna will be beheaded." this will be very effective. 

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2 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

That is preddy crackpot :D

Why?  Rhaegar was born at Summerhall in the flames of Aegon V's attempt to hatch dragon eggs.  I'm not saying with any certainty it's true, but we know nothing of Rhaegar or his intentions.  Selmy thought he was great.  Ned didn't really have an opinion.  Robert despised him.  And besides Selmy (who was a KG), none of them really knew Rhaegar.

 

It's probably not true, but I don't think I'd call it crackpot.  Especially when Whent, Dayne and Hightower try to kill the brother of the woman they have under "protection".

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1 hour ago, WalkinDude said:

Why?  Rhaegar was born at Summerhall in the flames of Aegon V's attempt to hatch dragon eggs.  I'm not saying with any certainty it's true, but we know nothing of Rhaegar or his intentions.  Selmy thought he was great.  Ned didn't really have an opinion.  Robert despised him.  And besides Selmy (who was a KG), none of them really knew Rhaegar.

 

It's probably not true, but I don't think I'd call it crackpot.  Especially when Whent, Dayne and Hightower try to kill the brother of the woman they have under "protection".

It is preddy crackpot buddy.

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3 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

It was i who made the point that the dream should not be taken literally.

So you might care to explain what you meant by that comment.

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KG are still faithful to Aerys, going by Ned's dream. They don't sound like men who would side with a crown prince in rebellion, so why are they at the toj, instead of with Aerys?

Aerys was always suspicious of Rhaegar, and he was right: Rhaegar to Jaime:

Quote

When this battle is done, I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago but... Well it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when we return.

Rhaegar had meant to call a council and remove Aerys. He had meant to do it "long ago," BUT he left for the toj instead. Could it be that Aerys knew about Rhaegar's plans, and in one of his lucid moments, encouraged him to fulfill prophecy instead?

Aerys would hand Rhaegar two members of the KG he didn't trust, and tell them to go off and do whatever the hell they wanted, so long as Rhaegar ended up isolated and in no position to call a council and remove him. Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna is a double bonus for Aerys, in that this encourages Rhaegar to break with families he'd need to side with him on the council.

And then, when Brandon shows up, Aerys loses it, gets wrathful (how dare they even contemplate calling a council??) and starts the Rebellion.

At some point during the Rebellion, Aerys sees that he's losing. He sends Hightower to call Rhaegar back, telling Hightower to stay behind and keep Lyanna and baby hostage against Rhaegar, in case he tries the council thing again. btw, I think it's likely that Aerys knows where Rhaegar is. Again, the KG are faithful to him. They'd let him know.

And this whole thing is bizarre, but the problem is both Rhaegar and Aerys are unpredictable. Aerys is mad as a hatter, but still has some lucidity left (calling Rhaegar back is sane). Rhaegar is without a political bone in his body; his running off with Lyanna is as mad as Aerys's killing Brandon and Rickard. 

 

 

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On 13/05/2017 at 10:27 AM, Lady bonehead said:

Interesting. These guys are the Kingsguard, they are famously, irrationally loyal, so logically whatever they are doing they have to be ultimately following Aerys's orders, not Rhaegar's.

No, their are following the orders of whoever it is they are "irrationally loyal" to; it could be Rhaegar or Aerys, or neither. From what we know, Rhaegar is the more likely option by far. 

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On 13/05/2017 at 10:27 AM, Lady bonehead said:

Interesting. These guys are the Kingsguard, they are famously, irrationally loyal, so logically whatever they are doing they have to be ultimately following Aerys's orders, not Rhaegar's.

No, their are following the orders of whoever it is they are "irrationally loyal" to; it could be Rhaegar or Aerys, or neither. From what we know, Rhaegar is the more likely option by far. 

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15 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

That is preddy crackpot :D

No more crackpot than any other explanation I've seen.

13 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly doubt Lyanna was used as a threat by Aerys against Rhaegar. Aerys has no idea where Lyanna is. 

If he can use her as a threat, he would definately use it against Ned and Robert firstly, not Rhaegar. such as" surrender! otherwise Lyanna will be beheaded." this will be very effective. 

Not if he wants to keep her location, and his involvement in the kidnapping, secret. He needs her alive until after the birth to use them in a dragon-hatching ceremony.

 

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