86 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No more crackpot than any other explanation I've seen.

Not if he wants to keep her location, and his involvement in the kidnapping, secret. He needs her alive until after the birth to use them in a dragon-hatching ceremony.

 

if this is the case, then what is the role of Rhaegar? Help his father to kidnap and hide Lyanna? 

However i have to say it is indeed possible that Aerys raped Lyanna and made her pregnant, Rhaegar helped Lyanna to escape from Aerys and Jon Snow is half-brother of Dany. Plus Aerys also raped Joanna and Tyrion is also Dany's half brother. Perfect. A new version of Aegon's conquest, just this time is a dragon queen with her two brother-husbands. 

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, their are following the orders of whoever it is they are "irrationally loyal" to; it could be Rhaegar or Aerys, or neither. From what we know, Rhaegar is the more likely option by far. 

"irrationally loyal" to is perhaps not the best wording - as per GRRM, they follow orders of those who are entitled to give them orders, which happens to be the whole royal family. So if Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would obey because he was the Crown Prince, unless Aerys told them not to. And if Aerys had no chance to tell them not to, they would keep obeying Rhaegar...

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20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So you might care to explain what you meant by that comment.

Take it from the start what are you asking me i don't understand?

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8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No more crackpot than any other explanation I've seen.

Not if he wants to keep her location, and his involvement in the kidnapping, secret. He needs her alive until after the birth to use them in a dragon-hatching ceremony.

 

It is much more crackpot than anything else because it has no support at all other than your idea.

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If they know Aerys is dead - (this pad keeps incorrecting to Aberystwyth which is deeply peculiar) - as they seem to, then Rhaegar is now their King, and they take his orders. If it was a blanket "nobody but me passes you" that's a mess right there.

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

"irrationally loyal" to is perhaps not the best wording - as per GRRM, they follow orders of those who are entitled to give them orders, which happens to be the whole royal family. So if Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would obey because he was the Crown Prince, unless Aerys told them not to. And if Aerys had no chance to tell them not to, they would keep obeying Rhaegar...

I know. I was just using the exact wording the person I was replying to had used. :)

That said. I think loyalty and adherence to vows do not necessarily go hand in hand. For instance, Dayne may have been more loyal to Rhaegar, a close friend, than he was a stickler for rules, vows, etc. 

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On 5/18/2017 at 5:00 PM, kissdbyfire said:

No, their are following the orders of whoever it is they are "irrationally loyal" to; it could be Rhaegar or Aerys, or neither. From what we know, Rhaegar is the more likely option by far. 

It is stated in the books that the Kingsguard are answerable only to the king. If they are following Rhaegar's orders it is because Aerys told them to do so.  Anything else would be treason. 

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Just now, Lady bonehead said:

It is stated in the books that the Kingsguard are answerable only to the king. If they are following Rhaegar's orders it is because Aerys told them to do so.  Anything else would be treason. 

Sure, those are the "rules", but rules can - and are - broken all the time, irl and in the story. According to the rules, the KG obey and protect the king but that doesn't mean that one or more KG didn't bend or break these rules. Is it treason? Maybe. Or, better said, it is, but it may not matter. Say, for the sake of argument, that Rhaegar was planning on deposing Aerys. Now imagine Dayne and maybe others are with him, supporting him, against his father the king and their vows. Now picture a scenario where they succeed; Aerys is gone and Rhaegar's is king. Dayne and whoever else have broken their vows and committed treason. But they won, there will be no consequences for them other than now Dayne is the LC.  

 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure, those are the "rules", but rules can - and are - broken all the time, irl and in the story. According to the rules, the KG obey and protect the king but that doesn't mean that one or more KG didn't bend or break these rules. Is it treason? Maybe. Or, better said, it is, but it may not matter. Say, for the sake of argument, that Rhaegar was planning on deposing Aerys. Now imagine Dayne and maybe others are with him, supporting him, against his father the king and their vows. Now picture a scenario where they succeed; Aerys is gone and Rhaegar's is king. Dayne and whoever else have broken their vows and committed treason. But they won, there will be no consequences for them other than now Dayne is the LC.  

 

Definitely characters, even good characters, break oaths all the time. However, it doesn't sound like the three KG believe they broke their oath to Aerys.

Quote

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

There's no "had we been there our prince would have survived." Main concern here is the Usurper, who wants Aerys's throne.

Quote

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." "Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Again, no hint of rebellion, nothing to indicate they thought of Rhaegar as their king. Aerys was king, and would yet be on the throne if they'd been there. The KG are true to the king, Jaime is false to him.

Hightower says that they were away because they "swore a vow." Given the exchange with Ned I'd guess that this vow is the KG oath. Aerys has to be involved with their presence at toj, somehow.

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2 hours ago, kimim said:

There's no "had we been there our prince would have survived." Main concern here is the Usurper, who wants Aerys's throne.

Eh, the Usurper being the one who killed Rhaegar is inextricably involved, so being at the Trident might have achieved saving both Rhaegar and the throne.

That said, I don't believe that the KG perceived Rhaegar as their king, either, but I do think that Dayne and Whent did support Rhaegar's attempt at deposing Aerys and were sort of stretching their vows or finding loopholes - they wouldn't have let Rhaegar make a coup (and he wouldn't put them in such a position, either) but would be perfectly alright with letting him call the Great Council and remove his father from the throne, at which moment their vows would transfer to him as their new king. Similarly, since Rhaegar was entitled to give them orders, they were perfectly happy following them as long as Aerys didn't issue a countermanding order - for which case they made themselves scarce along with Rhaegar and made sure that such an order couldn't reach them. IMHO, this is the reason why the whole trio had to remain at ToJ - if any of them returned to KL with Rhaegar, Aerys could order them to reveal where Lyanna was hidden and they would have to obey. So Rhaegar made sure such a situation never occured, and he sure didn't have to put much pressure on Dayne and Whent to do as told. Hightower should have been a harder nut but since Rhaegar was so essential for the war effort, he had a leverage on him.

2 hours ago, kimim said:

Hightower says that they were away because they "swore a vow." Given the exchange with Ned I'd guess that this vow is the KG oath. Aerys has to be involved with their presence at toj, somehow.

Nope, not what he says. He says that had they been in KL, they would have followed their vow to protect Aerys, and that they wouldn't have fled, i.e. left Aerys like Darry did, then. And he says that they are not going to flee now, which has nothing to do with Aerys because he has been dead for some time. The original reason why they stayed at ToJ needn't have anything to do with the reason they won't leave now, but the reason they won't leave now is their KG vows, and it is the same reason why they wouldn't have left Aerys: to protect the king.

 

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Nope, not what he says. He says that had they been in KL, they would have followed their vow to protect Aerys, and that they wouldn't have fled, i.e. left Aerys like Darry did, then. And he says that they are not going to flee now, which has nothing to do with Aerys because he has been dead for some time. The original reason why they stayed at ToJ needn't have anything to do with the reason they won't leave now, but the reason they won't leave now is their KG vows, and it is the same reason why they wouldn't have left Aerys: to protect the king.

 

...dumbass here has just caught on to the meaning of that.  They *are* still protecting a King. 

They know Aerys is dead, and thus Aegon, and now Rhaegar.  Only reason to stand guard and protect is the last remaining blood.

They have no reason not to suppose that Ned, as Robert's great friend and the other reason for Jon Arryn kicking off, might not kill a Targaryen child out of hand, especially if he thought his sister's honour besmirched by it.

Edited by SeaWitch

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Ah, don't worry, took me long enough to figure that out, as well :-) But it's the main reason why I think that Jon must have been born legitimate, or at least legitimate enough for the ardent followers to be able to gloss over some inconvenient technicalities.

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6 hours ago, kimim said:

Definitely characters, even good characters, break oaths all the time. However, it doesn't sound like the three KG believe they broke their oath to Aerys.

There's no "had we been there our prince would have survived." Main concern here is the Usurper, who wants Aerys's throne.

Again, no hint of rebellion, nothing to indicate they thought of Rhaegar as their king. Aerys was king, and would yet be on the throne if they'd been there. The KG are true to the king, Jaime is false to him.

Hightower says that they were away because they "swore a vow." Given the exchange with Ned I'd guess that this vow is the KG oath. Aerys has to be involved with their presence at toj, somehow.

Maybe they didn't break their KG vows to Aerys, and then again maybe they did. All we have so far is Ned's fever dream so we can't be sure either way. 

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

All we have so far is Ned's fever dream so we can't be sure either way. 

We also have Ned's assessment that the KG used to be a shining lesson to the world and Arthur Dayne the best of them. Doesn't sound like Dayne broke any oaths, as far as Ned knew.

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5 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

They know Aerys is dead, and thus Aegon, and now Rhaegar.  Only reason to stand guard and protect is the last remaining blood.

Well, according to the World book, Aerys had, following Rhaegar's death and prior to the Sack, explicitly named Viserys as his heir:

Quote

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

Now, when Ned shows up, the KG have clearly been notified of both the Trident and Sack.  They also know Viserys has fled to Dragonstone.  So it seems doubtful that they could possibly fail to know Viserys had been named the new heir by the very king to whom they had sworn their vow.

Also, Aerys naming Viserys as his heir -- cutting Rhaegar's son Aegon out, while Aegon was still alive -- certainly would have been seen as startling major news by the realm at large... and by the KG above all, since that information would define Viserys as the king in their eyes, if they knew it following the Sack.

So if you believe the World book (always a dicey thing to do), and if you also believe the KG were bound by their oath to protect the king at all costs, their failure to go to Dragonstone is quite extraordinary.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We also have Ned's assessment that the KG used to be a shining lesson to the world and Arthur Dayne the best of them. Doesn't sound like Dayne broke any oaths, as far as Ned knew.

That's just it. How much did Ned know? And how much of what he thought he knew was fact and how much were assumptions, either his or someone else's? Something like that would have been kept a secret amongst very few people, maybe even just Rhaegar and Dayne. 

Mind you, I'm not saying that's what happened, only that we simply don't have enough info to be sure of anything at this point.

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

...

Nope, not what he says. He says that had they been in KL, they would have followed their vow to protect Aerys, and that they wouldn't have fled, i.e. left Aerys like Darry did, then. And he says that they are not going to flee now, which has nothing to do with Aerys because he has been dead for some time. The original reason why they stayed at ToJ needn't have anything to do with the reason they won't leave now, but the reason they won't leave now is their KG vows, and it is the same reason why they wouldn't have left Aerys: to protect the king.

Ah, I can see that, except for the fact that they left while Aerys was still alive; two of them left before the Rebellion even started, and never returned, which is weird: Even had they been true to Rhaegar, they should have returned and fought; losing the Rebellion would in no way aid Rhaegar. Hightower was sent by the king fairly recently, and he, too, never returned. 

They never question their identity as KG, never question Aerys as king, and go further to identify themselves as "true" to that king vs Jaime, who was "false" to him: “When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” HAD they been there, they would have protected the king. Their not being present killed the king as surely as Jaime did, yet Jaime is false, and they are true...to Aerys, who should still be on the throne.

And their staying away, refusing to fight for the king, is a big deal. Ned's asking why, and their answers, over and over, state that they were not traitors, are still the KG. The implication, to me, is that they did not stay away by choice. Had they been with the king or at the Trident, the Rebellion would have turned out differently. They couldn't be with the king, couldn't win for him, couldn't protect him, and they're still at the toj, because they swore this vow...and they still believe that they were true to Aerys.

Do they know that Aerys chose Viserys as his heir? Is that info reliable? Because if that's the case, they'd surely know it, and if they know it, why aren't they with Darry, guarding Viserys the king? Their not being with Viserys is proof that they consider Rhaegar their king, and that they're now doing their duty as KG by guarding his son...except that they also believe Aerys should have been protected and kept on the throne.

It's always confused me. GRRM presents oaths as difficult things. Sometimes, keeping an oath breaks the primary purpose of that oath. Could it be that these three guards were ordered by Aerys to stay away for a reason, and they obeyed him, keeping to their oath, knowing that their staying away would destroy the king they'd sworn to protect, breaking that oath? It would be the same thing that Jaime faced when Aerys was threatening to burn down the city, the same thing that Jon faces in Dance. 

 

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On 5/19/2017 at 7:24 AM, Ygrain said:

"irrationally loyal" to is perhaps not the best wording - as per GRRM, they follow orders of those who are entitled to give them orders, which happens to be the whole royal family. So if Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would obey because he was the Crown Prince, unless Aerys told them not to. And if Aerys had no chance to tell them not to, they would keep obeying Rhaegar...

I agree with this. I think Dayne and Oswell followed Rhaegar more out of the loyalty to him and were part of the younger faction that seemed to back Rhaegar and the failed attempt at a Great Council. I feel the LC Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and get him back. Gerold finds Rhaegar who says he won't return unless Gerold stays to protect Lyanna. Thus we have Rhaegar's return to KL and why Hightower stayed.

On 5/19/2017 at 8:54 PM, Lady bonehead said:

It is stated in the books that the Kingsguard are answerable only to the king. If they are following Rhaegar's orders it is because Aerys told them to do so.  Anything else would be treason. 

Its not like KG have forced to pick sides in the past. Vows are always a sticky thing.

 

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12 hours ago, kimim said:

 they left while Aerys was still alive; two of them left before the Rebellion even started, and never returned, which is weird: Even had they been true to Rhaegar, they should have returned and fought; losing the Rebellion would in no way aid Rhaegar. Hightower was sent by the king fairly recently, and he, too, never returned. 

Aerys didn't return to KL to fight Stannis, either, because he was tasked with protecting Myrcella. Dayne and Whent were tasked with protecting Rhaegar. Remember, all the KG don't have to be with the king at all times, not do all of them need to fight for him, they can be assigned other duties, and we see this time and again.

Hightower, though, is a problem. He should have, and certainly would have wanted to, return to KL, while Rhaegar couldn't let that happen. IMHO, he had an upper hand because Aerys needed him back more than he needed Hightower, so if Rhaegar simply said "I'm not going unless you stay", then old White Bull really had no choice. And he wouldn't be breaking any vows - there were still four more KG to protect Aerys, and he would be following the orders of the Crown Prince. Technically. The spirit of the vow would require him to go back to Aerys ASAP, but he also swore to obey, and unless Aerys ordered him to return to KL at any cost, he couldn't really disobey Rhaegar. GRRM stated that they were bound to obey the royal family, as well, and didn't get to choose if they liked the order or not.

It is even possible that Hightower's stay was due to some agreement between Rhaegar and Aerys - when the shit hit the fan, no-one knew where Rhaegar was. Yet, some time after, Rhaegar is summoned to KL and given command. There must have been some communication that we don't know about yet.

12 hours ago, kimim said:

They never question their identity as KG, never question Aerys as king, and go further to identify themselves as "true" to that king vs Jaime, who was "false" to him: “When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” HAD they been there, they would have protected the king. Their not being present killed the king as surely as Jaime did, yet Jaime is false, and they are true...to Aerys, who should still be on the throne.

Sorry but being away following orders doesn't make them guilty of Aerys' death in the least. If Jaime was the only person in the room with Aerys, he would have killed him even with those three mere metres away.

12 hours ago, kimim said:

And their staying away, refusing to fight for the king, is a big deal. Ned's asking why, and their answers, over and over, state that they were not traitors, are still the KG. The implication, to me, is that they did not stay away by choice. Had they been with the king or at the Trident, the Rebellion would have turned out differently. They couldn't be with the king, couldn't win for him, couldn't protect him, and they're still at the toj, because they swore this vow...and they still believe that they were true to Aerys.

Indeed. They most certainly followed their orders.

12 hours ago, kimim said:

Do they know that Aerys chose Viserys as his heir? Is that info reliable? Because if that's the case, they'd surely know it, and if they know it, why aren't they with Darry, guarding Viserys the king? Their not being with Viserys is proof that they consider Rhaegar their king, and that they're now doing their duty as KG by guarding his son...except that they also believe Aerys should have been protected and kept on the throne.

If Aerys indeed chose Viserys, that's a big deal. However, since we never really hear on-page in the series proper, I don't think the KG heard, either. 

12 hours ago, kimim said:

It's always confused me. GRRM presents oaths as difficult things. Sometimes, keeping an oath breaks the primary purpose of that oath. Could it be that these three guards were ordered by Aerys to stay away for a reason, and they obeyed him, keeping to their oath, knowing that their staying away would destroy the king they'd sworn to protect, breaking that oath? It would be the same thing that Jaime faced when Aerys was threatening to burn down the city, the same thing that Jon faces in Dance. 

 

Sorry but in no way they could have known beforehand, and hindsight doesn't count - not to mention that their answers carry no small amount of bravado. Had they been at the Trident or KL, they would have tried, there is not doubt about that. But they were still only human, they might have failed just like everyone else and not change a thing.

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On Invalid Date at 0:33 AM, purple-eyes said:

if this is the case, then what is the role of Rhaegar? Help his father to kidnap and hide Lyanna? 

However i have to say it is indeed possible that Aerys raped Lyanna and made her pregnant, Rhaegar helped Lyanna to escape from Aerys and Jon Snow is half-brother of Dany. Plus Aerys also raped Joanna and Tyrion is also Dany's half brother. Perfect. A new version of Aegon's conquest, just this time is a dragon queen with her two brother-husbands. 

Perhaps Aerys and Rhaegar were working together, or perhaps they were both kidnapped.

And perhaps Aerys had nothing to do with it at all -- it was all a plot by the three KG that we are not aware of.

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