Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[Chris Mormont]

Not sure if this question has already been asked, but while reading another thread it popped in my head.

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood, and the widely held opinion is that this was due to childbirth.  However, what if after hearing the news that Rheagar was killed by Robert and faced with the realization that she would be sent back to Robert for marriage Lyanna decided to take her own life?

We know Lyanna was skeptical as to whether Robert would ever be faithful to one woman.  There is a lot of speculation that Lyanna was not kidnapped but instead ran away with Rheagar, got pregnant and had his child (Jon).  If that is the case, she will now have to marry the man who killed her love, and what about the baby? What will happen to her baby when Robert finds out who the father is?

When Ned defeats Dayne, Lyanna decides she'd rather die than go back, so she slits her wrists or sticks a dagger in her belly.  Ned arrives at her chamber just in time for her to make him promise to care for her baby and protect him from Robert.

This could explain why the Kingsguard is guarding the TOJ, because the baby could have been born weeks or months earlier and would be, in their eyes the new king.  

I am not promoting this theory as fact or arguing for its acceptance, just wondering what other people think.

 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood,

Do we?

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Do we?

+1.  We really don't know what happened at the ToJ

[ftheking]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Do we?

We know he found her in "a bed of blood" don't we? Which pretty much translates to dying in child birth IMO.

What would it add to the story if Lyanna commited suicide? Nothing. It kinda takes away from her character, without really changing anything. It would also destroy the symmetry with Dany's and Tyrion's mothers.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, ftheking said:

We know he found her in "a bed of blood" don't we? Which pretty much translates to dying in child birth IMO.

What would it add to the story if Lyanna commited suicide? Nothing. It kinda takes away from her character, without really changing anything. It would also destroy the symmetry with Dany's and Tyrion's mothers.

"a bed of blood" is a figure of speech - the birthing bed.

More, people can be said to die in the birthing bed even days after the actual birth occurred.

The fever references for Lyanna imply puerperal fever, and thus she died of sepsis, which usually takes 7-10 days after childbirth to end in death. By then all the bloody sheets would have been washed already, and so no blood in actual evidence (unless the infected womb occasionally bled again). But even 7-10 days after the birth, people would still say she died in childbirth, and thus "in a bed of blood". 

[zandru]

Seems kind of crazy to me, that if Lyanna was so concerned for the life of her baby, that she'd kill herself. Just duck out and hope that Little Brother Ned would do okay? I'm guessing there wasn't even a wetnurse on site. "Death before dishonor" is kind of a masculine thing, encouraged by an excess of testosterone ... and too many young males in the population.

I think Lyanna died in, or due to complications of, childbirth, as most think. Had she lived, she would have chosen to beg Ned to take her home and find a way to protect her and the baby. Maybe disguise herself as a septa (the Old Gods would understand) and live in a safer place - say, Bear Island. A woman like Lyanna would like it there.

But I don't think Lyanna had that choice.

[purple-eyes]

Although you guys are discouraging OP, I would say Lyanna's death might not be a straightforward suicide, but still a mixed thing. Look, she had birth-related illness and fever, she might have some guilt and sadness in losing her dad and brother, but most importantly, she suffered extreme pain and sorrow in losing her love of life-----Rhaegar. remember how Luthien and Arwen died? they died of broken heart and sorrow when their lovers died. Lyanna is the luthien of this story. It would be kind of too simple that she only died of a birthbed fever due to short of antibiotics , this is not that beautiful or romantic or holy. 

By the way, did not GRRM write that when she died, she released those rose petals as if gave up of will of life? (something like that, not exact words). 

This is a not-so-subtle hint that she was ready to die and meet her beloved silver prince in another world, a world where there is no Elia Martell or Aegon or Rhaenys or Robert, only Rhaegar and her. (but these four people also died so they had to meet again, maybe hopefully this time Rhaegar can defeat Robert?) 

[zandru]

3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

she might have some guilt and sadness in losing her dad and brother, but most importantly, she suffered extreme pain and sorrow in losing her love of life-----Rhaegar. remember how Luthien and Arwen died?

Still, why wouldn't she struggle to live for the babe? If Rhaegar meant so much to her, why wouldn't she exert every effort to stay alive to protect him? Instead of self-indulgently going quietly into that good night?

After all, Lyanna begged Ned "Promise me!" As if this (we presume, taking care of her baby and raising him) was the last, most important thing of her life? As opposed to "O Rhaegar, my beloved! Together again - forever!!" That, in my opinion, would be the ugly side of "romantic." You write

8 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

t would be kind of too simple that she only died of a birthbed fever due to short of antibiotics , this is not that beautiful or romantic or holy. 

But just when is ASOIAF "beautiful or romantic or holy"? It's gritty, nasty, often ugly, and the gods are either nonexistent or monsters. I see nothing "beautiful" or "holy" about willfully dropping dead when there's a newborn who needs you. For that matter, that was one of the factors in young Tom Riddle going bad in the "Harry Potter" series: that his mother didn't care enough for him to try to survive - or to use her witchly powers to preserve her life.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I'd be ready to accept suicide but not in the context of R+L=J being a loving healthy beautiful thing.  If Rhaegar had kidnapped her and raped her, then maybe she became the play thing of his Kingsguard after giving birth, I could see why she would want to die (child or no child).  Would definitely go a lot further to explaining why the Kingsguard were ready to kill Ned and his gang right away without talking things over.  Seems to me somebody should have been like "Hey Eddard, why don't you spend 15 minutes with your sister and then let us know if you still want to throw down?"  I mean, WTF would Arthur Dayne have done after in the event that he won that little skirmish?  How does he explain to Lyanna "oh by the way, I killed your brother without talking things over" and what are his plans next?  Wait until Robert himself comes, protecting Lyanna and Jon?  OMG this story would make so much more sense if Rhaegar and his loyal men were villainous with Lyanna.

 

That said, I pretty much accept that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love as an absolute fact (unless GRRM gets so upset by everyone knowing this that he changes his mind), so I believe in the died during child birth theory.

[purple-eyes]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Still, why wouldn't she struggle to live for the babe? If Rhaegar meant so much to her, why wouldn't she exert every effort to stay alive to protect him? Instead of self-indulgently going quietly into that good night?

After all, Lyanna begged Ned "Promise me!" As if this (we presume, taking care of her baby and raising him) was the last, most important thing of her life? As opposed to "O Rhaegar, my beloved! Together again - forever!!" That, in my opinion, would be the ugly side of "romantic." You write

But just when is ASOIAF "beautiful or romantic or holy"? It's gritty, nasty, often ugly, and the gods are either nonexistent or monsters. I see nothing "beautiful" or "holy" about willfully dropping dead when there's a newborn who needs you. For that matter, that was one of the factors in young Tom Riddle going bad in the "Harry Potter" series: that his mother didn't care enough for him to try to survive - or to use her witchly powers to preserve her life.

I do not know how you get this conclusion. There were many unfortunate women who committed suicide due to postpartum depression. I do not think you should say "hey,  why do not you struggle to live for your babe?" " should not you exert every effort to protect the baby?"

And it is indeed quite likely that Lyanna also said something like" O Rhaegar I love you I will meet you forever". She clutched his blue roses until her death. And you think she only said "promise me Ned" during her talk with Ned? She of coursed talked about her love in Rhaegar, otherwise how ned did not hate Rhaegar? GRRM would not disclose these love words for sure because you will know RLJ too early. 

 

 

[zandru]

12 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

And you think she only said "promise me Ned" during her talk with Ned?

Well, the only thing that resonated with Ned so that he remembered it down through the years was the "Promise me."

You can put me down as a hater of "romance" when it involves slaughtering tens of thousands to prove your "love" or committing suicide to show "love" and leaving behind a newborn baby. And really, this ain't George RR's style, either. Plus, it doesn't fit the profile we've seen of Lyanna as a wild, headstrong, willful, self-reliant, strong woman who knew how to use a sword, and (apparently) was willing to run off and leave behind the womanizing hammer-smasher her old man had betrothed her to.

A Sansa type might choose to romantically perish, if it didn't scare her too much. An Arya/Lyanna woman would fight.

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

Well, the only thing that resonated with Ned so that he remembered it down through the years was the "Promise me."

You can put me down as a hater of "romance" when it involves slaughtering tens of thousands to prove your "love" or committing suicide to show "love" and leaving behind a newborn baby. And really, this ain't George RR's style, either. Plus, it doesn't fit the profile we've seen of Lyanna as a wild, headstrong, willful, self-reliant, strong woman who knew how to use a sword, and (apparently) was willing to run off and leave behind the womanizing hammer-smasher her old man had betrothed her to.

A Sansa type might choose to romantically perish. An Arya/Lyanna woman would fight.

you are wrong that Lyanna is simply an Arya type. Many people said Lyanna is a mixture of Sansa and Arya. She cried at Rhaegar's sad song and willing to abandon her family to pursue her true love with her handsome silver prince. This part is not Arya. It is so Sansa. 

Of course Ned only said "promise me". GRRM would not let him say anything on Lyanna's love in Rhaegar. 

GRRM is a romantic person (himself said it) and Lyanna is his symbol of romance and his queen of love and beauty. She is pretty much his Mary Sue. Briefly, a country had to be destoryed for her, a war had to be raised in her name. Most attractive noble men have to fight for her. most beautiful and noble women have to abandoned and humiliated for her. thousands of men had to ded for her. beautiful ship had to be built and named for her......

I hope you get the point. Lyanna is the love goddness of this book and her death is extremely beautiful with tons of rose petals in the sky. Her death is not just simply because of short of antibiotics. 

 

[Cas Stark]

Presumably, she would have felt incredible guilt that her, if voluntary, running away with Rhaegar caused (1) a huge war, (2) death of her brother Brandon, (3) death of her father, (4) death of her lover, Rhaegar....there is plenty enough guilt to cause a suicide, but I believe Lyanna was a fighter and that she died as a result of childbirth.

[zandru]

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I hope you get the point. Lyanna is the love goddness of this book and her death is extremely beautiful with tons of rose petals in the sky.

Let's just say we have radically different concepts of "beauty" and love. I'm looking forward to getting George RR's story in the (indefinite) future. But I maintain that Lyanna's death was in no way "beautiful", no matter all the "rose petals in the sky" that you may wish to conjure up. Her death was ugly, painful and brutal, an unnecessary and untimely end of a beloved, strong, accomplished sister, and that Robert's "love" (of possessing her) triggered an ugly, brutal, essentially pointless war that wrecked the kingdom and killed countless people, and culminated with the installation of an incompetant drunkard's dynasty (who weren't even related to him) on the throne - I'd call that a tragedy, not a romance.

But that's just me. And, I think, George RR Martin.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Presumably, she would have felt incredible guilt that her, if voluntary, running away with Rhaegar caused (1) a huge war, (2) death of her brother Brandon, (3) death of her father, (4) death of her lover, Rhaegar....there is plenty enough guilt to cause a suicide, but I believe Lyanna was a fighter and that she died as a result of childbirth.

Yeah, I agree. Also, there are no clues or hints pointing to suicide. 

[purple-eyes]

55 minutes ago, zandru said:

Let's just say we have radically different concepts of "beauty" and love. I'm looking forward to getting George RR's story in the (indefinite) future. But I maintain that Lyanna's death was in no way "beautiful", no matter all the "rose petals in the sky" that you may wish to conjure up. Her death was ugly, painful and brutal, an unnecessary and untimely end of a beloved, strong, accomplished sister, and that Robert's "love" (of possessing her) triggered an ugly, brutal, essentially pointless war that wrecked the kingdom and killed countless people, and culminated with the installation of an incompetant drunkard's dynasty (who weren't even related to him) on the throne - I'd call that a tragedy, not a romance.

But that's just me. And, I think, George RR Martin.

Hey, how come you say Robert's love triggered a bloody war? Robert did not do anything wrong in the rebellion. 

He was just defending his own head which was unjustly requested by Aerys simply because he is the fiancee of Lyanna, OK?

His only fault for RR is that he was not good enough to make that beloved beautiful accomplished Lyanna love him. 

Her death is ugly? her story is not romance? GRRM did not agree with you by describing you a room full of fragrance of roses and a sky flying tons of rose petals outside the window. This is not a typical look of a delivery room where a woman died of child birth-related disease and also a baby room at the time of no disposable diaper. It is heavily beautified for sure. Oh, by the way, a woman who died of child birth fever is less likely to hold a lot of dead rose petals tightly, this might cause infection. 

 

 

 

[zandru]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

Oh, by the way, a woman who died of child birth fever is less likely to hold a lot of dead rose petals tightly.  

Well, I disagree with pretty much everything, but let's leave that as a "difference of opinion." From the "bed of blood" description, I suspect Lyanna bled out, rather than dying of a fever.

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

 

I think Lyanna died in, or due to complications of, childbirth, as most think. Had she lived, she would have chosen to beg Ned to take her home and find a way to protect her and the baby. Maybe disguise herself as a septa (the Old Gods would understand) and live in a safer place - say, Bear Island. A woman like Lyanna would like it there.

But I don't think Lyanna had that choice.

I like this idea.

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, I disagree with pretty much everything, but let's leave that as a "difference of opinion." From the "bed of blood" description, I suspect Lyanna bled out, rather than dying of a fever.

Ned disagrees with you there:

Quote

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. (aGoT, Eddard I)

Surely, Ned who was there and recollects the death scene while he's down below the crypts, would know whether she was weak from loss of blood, or weak from fever. Ned's thoughts say fever, not blood.

[zandru]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned's thoughts say fever, not blood.

Thanks for this detail! I'd forgotten.

Let's also note the "fear" in her eyes. To me, that sounds like someone desperately worried, not someone romantically longing for the blessed release of death, and subsequent re-uniting with her beloved.