The Best Fighters in the World

[Wm Portnoy]

I was intrigued by the following discussion and decided to expand the choices beyond Westeros to include Essos.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146492-help-me-with-the-best-fighters-in-westeros-since-roberts-rebellion-by-region/

My idea is basically this:

1. The type of fighting or venue is a big factor.
2. Type of weaponry and armor are big factors.
3. Size and reach are big factors.

I will use the following warriors in this discussion:  Strong Belwas, Jaime Lannister, Khal Drogo, and Bronn.

Duel

I believe in this type of fight, the pit fighter has the edge.  A controlled fight with neither of the combatants are wearing armor.  I would rank them this way.

Belwas > Drogo > Bronn > Jaime

In my opinion, Belwas is constantly underrated in talks of this type.  The man has beaten many capable Dothraki pit fighters.  Having spent years at the pit, he has faced many types of weapons and warriors.  The big guy even faced off with a man and a horse.  Sure, Oznak could have tried to ride down Belwas, but I think the results would have been the same.  Belwas would do his magnificent roll, deflect the lance with his tiny shield, and cut the legs off the horse.  I think it is just unfortunate that there is a lot of western bias among the readership.  Without armor, Belwas would slap Jaime around like a rag doll and pull his guts out. 

Battlefield

The warriors are wearing the equipment typical of what they normally use based on their culture and training.

Jaime > Drogo > Bronn > Belwas

The battlefield is different in that teamwork is important and not as dependent on the individual skills of the fighter.  Armor will give Jaime an insurmountable advantage. 

I would like to mention one other unfortunate bias that I read from time to time.  The Dothraki are underestimated.  They are extremely skilled in two important areas of the battlefield:  horsemanship and accuracy with the bow.  They would make the Ravens Teeth blush with their marksmanship.  Using the bow while riding is a valued skill.  They can shoot in front, they can shoot behind them.  Just a little bit of training with the lance will be required.  A Dothraki that gets additional training with the broad sword and the use of armor would be a most formidable warrior.  Many of the skills will transfer.  The coordination is already there.  The ability to use two blades.  The Dothraki are also skilled with knives. 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

I agree with the duel scenario.  Belwas could very well be the best 1 to 1 fighter in the world.  

[Bowen Marsh]

I look to the fight between Selmy and the pit fighter.  Selmy would have died without his armor.  The armor made the difference.  So the o/p has a good case.  I would also say that Jaime without armor would lose to Belwas.  Drogo is not a match for Belwas because the khal has only ever fought opponents that use an arakh, a sword, and bare hands.  Whereas Belwas have had to contend with every weapon you could think of against every fighting style during his long career at the fighting pits.  I would also say that Belwas uses the arakh but I feel like he must also be an expert on other types of weapons. 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

I'd love to see Bron against any of other these guys  

[Moiraine Sedai]

Gregor would beat anybody if they were using swords or only their hands.  He's a freak of nature.  A Wundar vs Robert Strong is high on my list of want-to-reads.  (2) Ghost vs. Shaggydog would be welcome too.  (3) Euron and his Valyrian armor vs. Robert Strong and his thick plate armor.

[Lord Vance II]

I think you're being a bit dismissive of Jaime. He isn't just a well-trained knight, he's an apparent swordsman savant. I'm not saying Belwas couldn't beat him, but I don't think Jaime would crumble without his armor. 

I think a big factor when you consider east vs. west fighting is their sense of self preservation. The entire impetus behind western combat is survivability. Plate armor, chivalry, tight formations, longswords, castles and fortification, all geared towards self preservation. Even without their armor, the average western-trained warrior is probably much stronger on defense and more of a tactician one-on-one. In the East, you don't see the same push for protection, particularly from the groups you're talking about, the pit fighters and Dothraki. They don't value their own lives as much, and their hyper-aggressive, little-to-no armor approach reflects it. Neither approach is necessarily better when against each other, but worth considering. 

[HaeSuse]

45 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I think you're being a bit dismissive of Jaime. He isn't just a well-trained knight, he's an apparent swordsman savant. I'm not saying Belwas couldn't beat him, but I don't think Jaime would crumble without his armor. 

I'm with you. I'd have to see it to believe it. In the only first person view of Jaime fighting, he's chained, emaciated, exhausted, unarmored, and long out of practice. And he's fighting one of the better fighters in Westeros in Brienne. And he nearly beats her, despite all of this. Brienne even muses on how bad she would've lost, if not for all of those disadvantages. I think if you gave naked Jaime a good sword, and said "here, kill Belwas; he's going to be trying to kill you," I think it would be a 50/50 tossup at worst. 

[Dejection]

Sandor Clegane; unlike the Mountain he's both massive *and* fast. He also fought two guys while very drunk and his overall description makes me rate him ahead of the current alive characters (else I'd say Robert Baratheon is #1; freaking warhammer that 'Ned could scarcely lift' and Ned is a regular physically strong soldier-lord).

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I think you're being a bit dismissive of Jaime. He isn't just a well-trained knight, he's an apparent swordsman savant. I'm not saying Belwas couldn't beat him, but I don't think Jaime would crumble without his armor. 

I think a big factor when you consider east vs. west fighting is their sense of self preservation. The entire impetus behind western combat is survivability. Plate armor, chivalry, tight formations, longswords, castles and fortification, all geared towards self preservation. Even without their armor, the average western-trained warrior is probably much stronger on defense and more of a tactician one-on-one. In the East, you don't see the same push for protection, particularly from the groups you're talking about, the pit fighters and Dothraki. They don't value their own lives as much, and their hyper-aggressive, little-to-no armor approach reflects it. Neither approach is necessarily better when against each other, but worth considering. 

There is truth there.  The knight classes aren't really out to kill each other.  They would prefer to capture and ransom the opponent.  Both want to live to fight another day.  All that said, Belwas has never lost a fight.  I would put my money on him to win over Jaime under the conditions specified by the OP, that is a fight with no armor.  

On the matter of bias.  I put most of the blame on the show.  That crazy sickle is not what the arakh is as created by GM.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

I was intrigued by the following discussion and decided to expand the choices beyond Westeros to include Essos.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/146492-help-me-with-the-best-fighters-in-westeros-since-roberts-rebellion-by-region/

My idea is basically this:

1. The type of fighting or venue is a big factor.
2. Type of weaponry and armor are big factors.
3. Size and reach are big factors.

I will use the following warriors in this discussion:  Strong Belwas, Jaime Lannister, Khal Drogo, and Bronn.

Duel

I believe in this type of fight, the pit fighter has the edge.  A controlled fight with neither of the combatants are wearing armor.  I would rank them this way.

Belwas > Drogo > Bronn > Jaime

In my opinion, Belwas is constantly underrated in talks of this type.  The man has beaten many capable Dothraki pit fighters.  Having spent years at the pit, he has faced many types of weapons and warriors.  The big guy even faced off with a man and a horse.  Sure, Oznak could have tried to ride down Belwas, but I think the results would have been the same.  Belwas would do his magnificent roll, deflect the lance with his tiny shield, and cut the legs off the horse.  I think it is just unfortunate that there is a lot of western bias among the readership.  Without armor, Belwas would slap Jaime around like a rag doll and pull his guts out. 

Battlefield

The warriors are wearing the equipment typical of what they normally use based on their culture and training.

Jaime > Drogo > Bronn > Belwas

The battlefield is different in that teamwork is important and not as dependent on the individual skills of the fighter.  Armor will give Jaime an insurmountable advantage. 

I would like to mention one other unfortunate bias that I read from time to time.  The Dothraki are underestimated.  They are extremely skilled in two important areas of the battlefield:  horsemanship and accuracy with the bow.  They would make the Ravens Teeth blush with their marksmanship.  Using the bow while riding is a valued skill.  They can shoot in front, they can shoot behind them.  Just a little bit of training with the lance will be required.  A Dothraki that gets additional training with the broad sword and the use of armor would be a most formidable warrior.  Many of the skills will transfer.  The coordination is already there.  The ability to use two blades.  The Dothraki are also skilled with knives. 

 

Darth Vader beats everyone. /thread 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Darth sidious, master yoda, obi wan, luke, basically these types of threads are subjective try to compare sports teams with who is the best, then predict who will win and by how much and you soon realise that there are so many factors to take into consideration.

What you can judge is skill and past results and peer review

[Tom Cruise]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Darth Vader beats everyone. /thread 

Tom Cruise wins all.  Have you seen my latest Jack Reacher film?

[Tai Pan]

The Dothraki bow has greater range than any bow used in Westeros.  The sheer numbers of the Dothraki who are both cavalry and archers can basically rain arrows down on their enemies.  The greater range allows them to hit from farther away before the enemy's bows can be effective.  Besides this, it is hard to say who would win the individual combat.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/2/2017 at 1:25 PM, Tom Cruise said:

Tom Cruise wins all.  Have you seen my latest Jack Reacher film?

jack does not have a lightsaber or a force choke 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/2/2017 at 11:29 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Darth sidious, master yoda, obi wan, luke, basically these types of threads are subjective try to compare sports teams with who is the best, then predict who will win and by how much and you soon realise that there are so many factors to take into consideration.

What you can judge is skill and past results and peer review

That and lightsabers will cut through any steel armor, so the Jedi/Sith still beats anyone any time 

 

[Roswell]

Sword vs. sword.  Arthur Dayne.  But you know he got beat by a crannogman.  Fishnet is not just a woman's garment but an effective weapon for a frog eater.  Seriously, to fight someone bigger and with more reach, you use a long weapon to compensate.  To fight someone faster you better wear armor and use a highly mobile weapon of your own.  Swords are a good compromise having both offense and defense.  An arakh allows two weapons and it is faster.  The spear has reach.  A saber like weapon with hand guards is advantageous too.  Imo, a small shield and a gladius (shorter sword with two edge) is most effective of all. 

[Graydon Hicks]

screw this all, superman and goku perform fusion dance, become chuck norris, and round house kicks reality so hard it throws up darth vader and they kill everyone. lmao. 

but seriously, i think you should also consider the differences in fighting still even between the North and the rest of westeros. the south prefers that elegant, pure blade sword work, while the north is more likely to throw in the brawling moves, like kicking at the legs and body, punches with sword hand holding the hilt, shoulder slams.

and while jaime is an artist with a sword, before he lost his hand, he always considered selmy and dayne to be even better, like Leonardo and Michelangelo with a paint brush, to his talented amateur.

[João Carlos]

I am surprised that Greyworm wasn't mentioned yet.

Unsullied are slaves raised as war machines since day 1. The ones who actually make it to "adulthood" should already be elite warriors. Now imagine one that has been appointed by his own regiment (~10k unsullied) as the best one.

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Sword vs. sword.  Arthur Dayne.  But you know he got beat by a crannogman.  Fishnet is not just a woman's garment but an effective weapon for a frog eater.  Seriously, to fight someone bigger and with more reach, you use a long weapon to compensate.  To fight someone faster you better wear armor and use a highly mobile weapon of your own.  Swords are a good compromise having both offense and defense.  An arakh allows two weapons and it is faster.  The spear has reach.  A saber like weapon with hand guards is advantageous too.  Imo, a small shield and a gladius (shorter sword with two edge) is most effective of all. 

And you can even catch your lunch with it.  Damn usefull stuff, fishnet.

7 hours ago, João Carlos said:

I am surprised that Greyworm wasn't mentioned yet.

Unsullied are slaves raised as war machines since day 1. The ones who actually make it to "adulthood" should already be elite warriors. Now imagine one that has been appointed by his own regiment (~10k unsullied) as the best one.

I would like to see them get outfitted with a set of armor.  A skilled infantry like that wearing armor would be unstoppable.  The legions of Old Ghis fought the mighty Valyrians and it took five wars to put them down.  The Unsullied methods are trained in the manner of the old legions. 

[Tom Cruise]

On 6/3/2017 at 6:17 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

jack does not have a lightsaber or a force choke 

Cunning and guile.  Remember Jack (aka Maveric) does have an F-18 hornet with sidewinders.