Sometimes, you have to be cruel to be kind

[Wolf's Bane]

Ned wanted to spare Robert from the hurtful truth about his children.  He kept the secret of Cersei's cuckolding him with the man sworn to his protection, Jaime.  The two were betraying Robert all these years.  Ned chose kindness and it went horribly wrong from there.  Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.  I ask you.  Give another example of kindness going wrong when stern should have been the proper way.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

He only decided not to tell him when he was dying. What else could Bobby have done beside write on that parchment that his kids/wife should be put to death. Cersei would have tore it up in court like she did the other letter. I mean Ned was going to tell Robert as soon as he got back from hunting. The fact that he was going to die that night is the only thing that changed this actions. 

I do agree he should have told him but I don't think the results would have been different. 

[Bernie Mac]

37 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

He only decided not to tell him when he was dying. What else could Bobby have done beside write on that parchment that his kids/wife should be put to death.

He could have called in Barristan, Renly, the rest of the Small Council and other prominent nobles still int the capital (such as Royce and Loras) and officially disinherited Cersei's  bastards, if he believed Ned, and picked his new heir. There was a lot he could have done. 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Still, Little Finger had the gold cloaks... 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If Aegon the unworthy can do what he did from his death bed who knows what Robert might have been able to do.

[Tyg Doggett]

51 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Still, Little Finger had the gold cloaks... 

Little Finger would had allied himself with the strongest side.

[ravenous reader]

11 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Give another example of kindness going wrong

Going wrong for whom?  There are plenty of examples of an act of kindness benefiting the recipient of that kindness, to the detriment of the one being kind.  This usually involves one person sparing the life of another -- constituting 'the madness of mercy'--  which ends up backfiring on the merciful.  For example:

-- Daemon Blackfyre graciously allowing Gwayne Corbray to leave the Redgrass Field -->  Daemon and sons dead; Bloodraven alive

-- Robert Baratheon pardoning Varys -->  Robert dead; Varys alive

-- Ned feeling moved to give Cersei advance warning of his plans -- >  Ned dead; Cersei alive

-- Brandon Stark refraining from killing Littlefinger in the duel at Cat's request -->  Brandon, Rickard, Ned, Cat and Lysa all dead; Littlefinger alive

In my opinion, of all of these the latter has been the most pivotal moment in the entire saga.

Sometimes, someone's 'not-death' has more impact on history than someone's life.  I believe this is a major meaning as applied to ASOIAF of GRRM's repeated reference to Robert Frost's poem, 'The Road Not Taken,' which @LynnS and I have been discussing of late on my poetry thread.

[The Commentator]

19 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Brandon Stark refraining from killing Littlefinger in the duel at Cat's request -->  Brandon, Rickard, Ned, Cat and Lysa all dead; Littlefinger alive

Good one.  I agree.

Being a strong Targ loyalists I pick an example from another perspective:  Aerys sparing Ethan Glover.  You would think Ethan would be grateful for his life getting spared after his lord threatened to murder the king's family.  

[ravenous reader]

14 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Good one.  I agree.

Being a strong Targ loyalists I pick an example from another perspective:  Aerys sparing Ethan Glover.  You would think Ethan would be grateful for his life getting spared after his lord threatened to murder the king's family.  

Tell me more about Ethan Glover.  I know less about these minor characters than most of you!  How did sparing Glover's life backfire on Aerys?

A small note on human psychology:  people are usually not grateful to the ones sparing them.  In order to 'spare' someone's life, a priori one must first have threatened that selfsame life of which one then disposes.  The 'sparer' holds the 'spared' in a position of abject powerlessness, and this humiliating feeling will not be easily forgotten, nor forgiven.  The person thus 'spared,' even if disposed of relatively favorably, inevitably remembers the threat rather than the sparing; and plans to avenge the slight accordingly.

Or -- in other words -- 'A good deed never goes unpunished!'

[Bluetiger]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Tell me more about Ethan Glover.  I know less about these minor characters than most of you!  How did sparing Glover's life backfire on Aerys?

A small note on human psychology:  people are usually not grateful to the ones sparing them.  In order to 'spare' someone's life, a priori one must first have threatened that selfsame life of which one then disposes.  The 'sparer' holds the 'spared' in a position of abject powerlessness, and this humiliating feeling will not be easily forgotten, nor forgiven.  The person thus 'spared,' even if disposed of relatively favorably, inevitably remembers the threat rather than the sparing; and plans to avenge the slight accordingly.

Or -- in other words -- 'A good deed never goes unpunished!'

Ethan was Brandon's squire. For unknown reasons he was the only one not killed by Aerys... 

But it's not surprising at all that he wasn't grateful to Aerys... He saw all his friends and their fathers killed. And it's possible that his father died there as well.

And I wouldn't really say that spending more than a year in the black cells qualifies as 'being spared' by merciful king Aerys.

@ravenous reader this 'sparing' backfired on Targaryens when Ethan was freed during the Sack and later joined Ned on his voyage to ToJ.

Quote

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn.

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Being cruel to be kind did not work out too well for Alliser Thorne

[Seams]

Theon let "Reek" (Ramsay in disguise) and Osha bend the knee when he took over Winterfell. Reek / Ramsay was freed from the dungeon and became a trusted hanger-on among Theon's courtiers. I don't know that Theon needed to be cruel in order to be kind, but I think it's safe to say that these acts of kindness backfired on Theon, particularly in the case of Reek / Ramsay.

For what it's worth, I think there may be a pun around the English word "kind" and the German word "Kind," meaning child. This fits with the whole motif around Ned insisting that it is wrong to kill children, Cersei ordering the killing of Robert's bastards, Tywin throwing the Tarbek heir into a well, Theon killing the miller's boys, The Hound (supposedly) killing Mycah the butcher's boy, Jaime threatening to load Edmure's baby into a trebuchet, etc.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

Well, there's also Sansa lying to save Dontos Hollard from execution.  He then repays her by lying to her, assisting in the conspiracy to frame her, and helps kidnap her for LF.  Just for money to fuel his alcoholism.  

[Night Train to Kathmandu]

19 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Ned wanted to spare Robert from the hurtful truth about his children.  He kept the secret of Cersei's cuckolding him with the man sworn to his protection, Jaime.  The two were betraying Robert all these years.  Ned chose kindness and it went horribly wrong from there.  Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.  I ask you.  Give another example of kindness going wrong when stern should have been the proper way.

It was a difficult decision for Ned but he resigned himself to allow Joffrey to succeed Robert under the condition that Cersei's influence gets removed.  Ned was hoping to avoid war and assumed the city watch would be enough to send Cersei out of the city but he underestimated the resolve of the Lannisters and Petyr Baelish.  It appears to me that Ned thought he could guide Joffrey into manhood.  A guided Joffrey is better than the devastating war that would follow and Ned was hoping to avoid.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He could have called in Barristan, Renly, the rest of the Small Council and other prominent nobles still int the capital (such as Royce and Loras) and officially disinherited Cersei's  bastards, if he believed Ned, and picked his new heir. There was a lot he could have done. 

 Touché 

[Foot_Of_The_King]

MMD...

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Foot_Of_The_King said:

 Touché 

Yes.  It's amazing how much truth can accomplish.

[Lord Wraith]

11 hours ago, Tygett Blackwood said:

Little Finger would had allied himself with the strongest side.

Frankly any side not including Stannis would have been fine.

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Going wrong for whom?  There are plenty of examples of an act of kindness benefiting the recipient of that kindness, to the detriment of the one being kind.  This usually involves one person sparing the life of another -- constituting 'the madness of mercy'--  which ends up backfiring on the merciful.  For example:

-- Daemon Blackfyre graciously allowing Gwayne Corbray to leave the Redgrass Field -->  Daemon and sons dead; Bloodraven alive

-- Ned feeling moved to give Cersei advance warning of his plans -- >  Ned dead; Cersei alive

 

So true.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Well, there's also Sansa lying to save Dontos Hollard from execution.  He then repays her by lying to her, assisting in the conspiracy to frame her, and helps kidnap her for LF.  Just for money to fuel his alcoholism.  

The perfect catspaw...

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes.  It's amazing how much truth can accomplish.

Indeed.

[Prof. Cecily]

On 6/2/2017 at 6:47 AM, Steelshanks Walton said:

Ned wanted to spare Robert from the hurtful truth about his children.  He kept the secret of Cersei's cuckolding him with the man sworn to his protection, Jaime.  The two were betraying Robert all these years.  Ned chose kindness and it went horribly wrong from there.  Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.  I ask you.  Give another example of kindness going wrong when stern should have been the proper way.

Do you think Ned was the only one hiding the truth from Robert about his queen and her brother?

 

15 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Or -- in other words -- 'A good deed never goes unpunished!'

[Lord Wraith]

37 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Do you think Ned was the only one hiding the truth from Robert about his queen and her brother?

Just everyone else on the Small Council...