Will Sansa’s Unkiss amount to nothing more than the active over imagination of a young girl concerning the guy that protected her?

[Seams]

At the risk of derailing a delightfully good-natured and constructive dialogue, would anyone be interested in addressing the question by looking at literary clues?

I would love to see a thread exploring significant kisses in the books:

• The shrouded lord spreads greyscale with a kiss.
• Beric Dondarrion kisses life back into Catelyn Stark, turning her into Lady Stoneheart.
• Penny tries to get Tyrion interested in her by kissing him, but he just tolerates her overtures and reminds her he is married.
• Bran says the weirwood paste tastes like the last kiss he had from his mother, among other things.
• Ygritte's hair was kissed by fire.
• The lyrics of The Dornishman's Wife involve a woman's kisses "warmer than spring" but also the "terrible" kiss of a black steel blade.
• Petyr kisses Sansa / Alayne, leading to the deadly confrontation with Lysa.

Any others? 

I think the reason Sansa imagines herself having been kissed by Sandor relates closely to her transformation to Alayne Stone, and is therefore a parallel to the kiss Beric Dondarrion bestows on Catelyn, transforming her to Lady Stoneheart. And both of those "kiss --> stone" situations are related to the Shrouded Lord kiss, which also turns people to stone.

Sansa's first encounter with Sandor occurs when she is trying to flee the gaze of Ser Ilyn Payne, who is described as the "third stranger" in the same encounter. (The first two strangers are Renly and Barristan.) She turns around and bumps into The Hound, and is caught between the two of them, with Lady growling. Initially, I thought Sandor and Ser Ilyn were both Stranger figures, but a recent close reading of Sansa II in AGoT tells me that he is the guy who defeats the Stranger. Taken together with The Hound's unique ability to handle the extremely mean horse called Stranger, the author seems to be giving us a man with the unique ability to keep death at arm's length. Notice that Joffrey dies shortly after The Hound leaves King's Landing.

It's possible that Sansa imagining a kiss bestowed by Sandor is her way of imagining herself (and therefore becoming) powerful. She imagines that she has taken on the powers of this force that keeps The Stranger (= death) at bay. Maybe Petyr stealing a kiss from her is his way of trying to steal some of that power for himself.

These are literary ideas, mind you, not literal interpretations of the thoughts going through the minds of the characters.

I do agree that the scene with The Hound in Sansa's bedchamber is a symbolic rape. The only reason she might idealize it is that she has just come from the Queen's Ballroom, where Ser Ilyn stood watching with the intention of killing everyone in the room if King's Landing should fall to Stannis. As in her first encounter with Ser Ilyn and the Hound, Sandor is less scary to her and may seem like a protector, now that Lady is gone and based on his rescue of her during the riot.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

See, I'm not a fan of the knife thing at all although I understand its meaning in the story (the sexual symbolism).

But in her dream with Sandor there is no knife (interestingly the only real fear about the incident) and there is the emphasis on the song part. The song, which was what lead him to tell her "Little bird" and throw away the knife. If she actually is merging those two traumas, why is the Sandor part changed to the better? Conversely, she remembers the Tyrion part as it happened. Maybe she understood that he would never hurt her and, although the knife part might have disgusted her, now that she understands he was there to tell her he was gonna protect her, she understands everything: he was drunk and tired, he would never hurt her, he was meaning other things, the opposite: protect her, he'd kill anyone who would hurt her as he told her at the beginning.....the song calms him down and makes him say to hear "Little Bird" again. And I repeat, I'm not a fan of the knife thing.

As for what leads to what, I'm not a psychologist so as to know about it. My normal thinking says that it doesn't, but as I have said before, subcounscious is tricky. It's interesting that I wrote about the possibility of it not being an erotic dream (or not just that, although I think it's the case, analysing their story together as a whole, I think that is what the writer is implying) but I suppose you didn't read what I wrote, that he could be "her hero" protecting her from Tyrion's previous dream. In a subcounscious say, she might juxtapose those two sexual dreaming experiences.

And you didn't respond to my question about how does she feel about that. She is doing nothing while Sandor goes to her bed. while she describes Tyrion's eyes with disgust, but now looks like the possible trauma disappeared this time in the narrative .

Nothing suggests she doesn't want it. The Lady Part doesn't mean she is scared by the Hound. If you mean she is scared and needs protection (Lady) then it could be she is scared by the Tyrion nightmare, and thus, both Sandor and Lady are the ones she cares. It could also be that she needs a familiar face after these experiences, before the dream, during the nightmare and the now "different version" of the Hound approach to her, that she fails to recognise because she doesn't acknowledge her growing feelings for him.  It can also be something not attached to the dreams, or it can also be something positive in regards to Sandor, because Lady (positive) might remind her of him (just dreamed about).

In fact, the association is positive:

Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

I meant daydream.

Oh, it doesn't have to be something pleasant if her dream about him is associated with trauma and nightmares with sexual tones. In fact, because of the fact that there was a sexual part in the real incident she should never daydream about him if she really is so traumatised that she hasn't digested the whole thing, which I don't think was the case considering everything that Sansa has experienced, just as she never daydreams about Tyrion's wedding night being pleasant.

The fact that he saved her many times doesn't mean she has to alter this memory that "traumatised" her into something pleasant that includes kisses. If she is so "traumatised" as you say, she should alter it into something like a conversation but she should repress all the sexual connotations, including the Kiss. That's what I am trying to say all the time. And I have no problema with your analysis, I'm just debating what I think is not correct.

A girl is intelligent enough to daydream about what she wants. Really, people don't daydream about guys who have caused sexually traumatic experiences.

Make me a baby, Petyr," she screamed, "make me another sweet little baby. Oh, Petyr, my precious, my precious, PEEEEEETYR!" Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt's ladies could scarce contain their mirth.

Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelled fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they'd killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince's sworn shield for years.

She stayed outside for a long time. When at last she sought her own bed, wet and chilled, only the dim glow of a peat fire lit the darkened hall. There was no sound from above. The young singer sat in a corner, playing a slow song to himself. One of her aunt's maids was kissing a knight in Lord Petyr's chair, their hands busy beneath each other's clothing. Several men had drunk themselves to sleep, and one was in the privy, being noisily sick. Sansa found Bryen's old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. "You sad old hound," she said, ruffling his fur.

 

It doesn't sound as she is traumatised.....He remembers the Hound in a positive way. She is not infatuated here either. It's just that when she wants....like when she is kissed.....the Kiss she now would want to have (at that moment she didn't want it because she was scared and confused, but now that she has digested everything she understands Sandor, she remembers what he really was for her and starts to desire him).

"She remembers the Hound in a positive way"

•Well no duh. The magic of her altering mind. Same reason she continues to see Joffrey in a positive way even after the incident with Lady.

Sansa's altering of the Blackwater incident began back in Kingslanding. She blocked out the trauma until she was second guessing herself about why she didn't go with the Hound. Yet re-reading the passage makes it OBVIOUS why.

•The whole reason Sansa alters reality is to keep her pleasant beliefs alive. She turned her last memory of him into something positive why would she remember him in a negative way? 

•This negativity only creeps in during her nightmare. When she's no longer ABLE TO REPRESS AND ALTER REALITY. That's when the trauma of Blackwater seeps in.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped,

"But in her dream with Sandor there is no knife (interestingly the only real fear about the incident) and there is the emphasis on the song part."

• He tells her in an earlier passage that he will steal a song from her whether she wills it or not. Then later goes to her room to make good on that promise. The song is an euphemism for rape. And when thinking of that it makes perfect sense why this incident merges with that of her wedding night during Sansa's nightmare.

"It doesn't sound as she is traumatised.....He remembers the Hound in a positive way"

•When she's sitting thinking of her wedding night with Tyrion and then thinks of the Hound, she's not having a nightmare. She is very much awake. Her mind still active, her trauma concerning the Hound still altered so that she can focus on him as her protector. .

Furthermore, Sansa doesn't have the connection with Tyrion that she has with the Hound. The Hound is her PROTECTOR, Tyrion is a stunted and disfigured LANNISTER. She hates the Lannisters. Can't trust them. They killed her family. One wants her head.

•Yes, she remembers Tyrion's kindness but he is still a Lannister. Even if she was to look beyond him beyond a Lannister, he can't offer her anything. He's stunted, crippled he can't protect her. He can't keep her safe. He can't fight off the people that frighten her.

Sansa repressing the trauma the Hound caused her allows her to continue to view him as her protector. Sansa repressing the trauma Tyrion caused her does nothing. So her mind doesn't have any reason to repress it.

 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sansa could have been legally raped by Tyrion, she was nearly raped by Marillion, but Sandorian Luthor orders Marillion away, and she replaces Sandor in the marrige bed, and she pats the dog. Nothing of Sandor in the bed says nightmare. She's just startled by it, she wakes and then she pets the dog.

Nobody ignores trauma. Trauma is seeing your father behead. Trauma is being beaten and stripped in front of a whole court room. Sandor scared her, yes. He did not traumatize her, because he did not rape her, nor would he have. And she does not believe that he would actually hurt her. Not at the top of the tower. Not in her room. Guess what? He didn't? And he didn't get the song he hoped for. Instead he got a song that humbled him. Should he have been there in that state that night? No. Should he have behaved like he did? No.

Stop speaking about posters in general, or even assume that someone is a "shipper". Stop using straw men. Nobody here is claiming that people get turned on by almost getting raped. You are cherry picking again, ignoring that the Sandor stand-in stepped in, and Lysa's sexual enjoyment of her wedding night was inescapable, and that after the dream she pets the dog and wishes he's more wolf.

"Nothing of Sandor in the bed says nightmare." 

•This is why I'm not about to take your argument seriously. He tells her in an earlier passage that he will steal a song from her whether she wills it or not. Then later goes to her room to make good on that promise. His use of "song" is an euphemism for rape. Whether she's aware of this subconsciously or not she has a nightmare about it.

"and she replaces Sandor in the marrige bed"

•It's called two traumatic incidents MERGING together. Her traumatic wedding night MERGES into her traumatic incident with the Hound at Blackwater.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped

•Not traumatic at all. Nope just two non traumatic incidents that she dreamed about after a totally non traumatic near rape.

"ignoring that the Sandor stand-in stepped in" 

•I have said MANY times that she views the Hound as a protector which is why she constantly thinks of him during times that she needs help. A Sandor step in during an incident that makes her afraid is just one more evidence of Sansa viewing the Hound as a protector. I have never denied that. 

 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"Nothing of Sandor in the bed says nightmare." 

•This is why I'm not about to take your argument seriously. 

"and she replaces Sandor in the marrige bed"

•It's called two traumatic incidents MERGING together. Her traumatic wedding night MERGES into her traumatic incident with the Hound at Blackwater.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped

•Not traumatic at all. Nope just two non traumatic incidents that she dreamed about after a totally non traumatic near rape.

"ignoring that the Sandor stand-in stepped in" 

•I have said MANY times that she views the Hound as a protector which is why she constantly thinks of him during times that she needs help. A Sandor step in during an incident that makes her afraid is just one more evidence of Sansa viewing the Hound as a protector. I have never denied her. 

 

Your claims are full of contradictions. At one point she's infatuated with him to get over the devestating trauma he inflicted on her according to you, but then you completely ignore how she's not infatuated with Joffrey anymore after he cut her father's head off (she was infatuated with him before, right?). You completely ignore she's not infatuated with Littlefinger who had Dontos killed right in front her so that she threw up, actuall kisses her, and throws Lysa out of the moon door in front of her, but also saved her from King's Landing and "protected" her from Lysa. Why isn't she infatuated with Marillion, who's handsome and traumatized her? So, apparently she's twisting her mind into a pretzel over the so called Sandor-trauma, but not over the worse ones. And we're so deluded for not seeing and recognizing how traumatized she still is by Sandor? Seems to me that Sansa recognizes who truly poses a danger to her, and who doesn't.

[Meera of Tarth]

25 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"She remembers the Hound in a positive way"

•Well no duh. The magic of her altering mind. Same reason she continues to see Joffrey in a positive way even after the incident with Lady.

Sansa's altering of the Blackwater incident began back in Kingslanding. She blocked out the trauma until she was second guessing herself about why she didn't go with the Hound. Yet re-reading the passage makes it OBVIOUS why.

•The whole reason Sansa alters reality is to keep her pleasant beliefs alive. She turned her last memory of him into something positive why would she remember him in a negative way? 

No, but it's still true that if she is not following the pattern  you describe but the other I'm pointing out  she would remember him positively as well.

My point is that in that passage she doesn't look as having an infatuation with him. Just remembering him in a normal way.

Quote

•This negativity only creeps in during her nightmare. When she's no longer ABLE TO REPRESS AND ALTER REALITY. That's when the trauma of Blackwater seeps in.

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped,

"But in her dream with Sandor there is no knife (interestingly the only real fear about the incident) and there is the emphasis on the song part."

• He tells her in an earlier passage that he will steal a song from her whether she wills it or not. Then later goes to her room to make good on that promise. The song is an euphemism for rape. And when thinking of that it makes perfect sense why this incident merges with that of her wedding night during Sansa's nightmare.

If the song is an euphemism for rape then you actually believe that he wanted to rape her both in real life and in the dream. I was telling you before that I thought that if she dreams about someone who wants to rape her (the Hound, according to your interpretation) then it makes no sense that she is infatuated with him, because when a FRIEND wants to rape you (both in a dream and in real life) and this friend is your protector you just don't twist the event 180 degress. Just don't. Being upset is a thing, remember kissing him in a happy way is another.

When I told you before that you were connecting Sandor with rape you said that you had not said such a thing and that I had jumped to that conclusion. As a result of that, I asked you what was your take with the dream and you said she was merging two traumatic experiences, but you didn't say that rape was connected to the Hound. Now you are saying it again. Please, stick to one idea.

Also, I explained that my take with the song is the OPPOSITE of rape. In fact, is the part of the incident that makes Sandor calm down and leave her, throw away the knife, say "Little Bird" etc. So to me, it only emphasizes how she is diggesting the incident time after it has happened, the positive things.....

Quote

•When she's sitting thinking of her wedding night with Tyrion and then thinks of the Hound, she's not having a nightmare. She is very much awake. Her mind still active, her trauma concerning the Hound still altered so that she can focus on him as her protector. .

 

As I stated, my take is that if I followed your premise of still being very traumatised, she should completely repress the Kiss, not change the unpleasant experience into a pleasant sexual one. That way, he'd still be the protector/friend he thought he was before the incident.

She is actively daydreaming of what she thinks she should have happened because she now knows that he never wanted to hurt her, on the contrary, and she probably had some sexual feelings for him at that time. Of course, in that ackward situation, they didn't appear. Now, having diggested the whole thing they appear without repressing them.

I feel Sansa should be more traumatised with many other experiences in her life. So maybe everything she says or does are also alterations of her mind

[Houseofthedirewolves]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your claims are full of contradictions. At one point she's infatuated with him to get over the devestating trauma he inflicted on her according to you, but then you completely ignore how she's not infatuated with Joffrey anymore after he cut her father's head off (she was infatuated with him before, right?). You completely ignore she's not infatuated with Littlefinger who had Dontos killed right in front her so that she threw up, actuall kisses her, and throws Lysa out of the moon door in front of her, and thus "protected" her. Why isn't she infatuated with Marillion, who's handsome and traumatized her? 

•After Joffrey cuts her father's head off WHAT REASON DOES SHE HAVE TO BE INFATUATED WITH HIM? NONE.

SHE HATES HIM. She just wants to go home at this point. She no longer wants anything to do with the Lannisters. OBVIOUS.

•Unlike with the Hound who she STILL NEEDS TO PROTECT HER. 

•Sansa copes in her own way with Littlefinger who molests her. She separates him into two distinct people. One that is her friend and who tries to protect her. Then the mask face who doesn't care for her. Although Sansa does acknowledge she would run from both if she could. 

•Sansa's method of coping with trauma from the Hound caused her to romanticize her experience with him, while her method of coping with Littlefinger led to her developing Stockholm syndrome concerning him. 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

11 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, but it's still true that if she is not following the pattern  you describe but the other I'm pointing out  she would remember him positively as well.

My point is that in that passage she doesn't look as having an infatuation with him. Just remembering him in a normal way.

If the song is an euphemism for rape then you actually believe that he wanted to rape her both in real life and in the dream. I was telling you before that I thought that if she dreams about someone who wants to rape her (the Hound, according to your interpretation) then it makes no sense that she is infatuated with him, because when a FRIEND wants to rape you (both in a dream and in real life) and this friend is your protector you just don't twist the event 180 degress. Just don't. Being upset is a thing, remember kissing him in a happy way is another.

When I told you before that you were connecting Sandor with rape you said that you had not said such a thing and that I had jumped to that conclusion. As a result of that, I asked you what was your take with the dream and you said she was merging two traumatic experiences, but you didn't say that rape was connected to the Hound. Now you are saying it again. Please, stick to one idea.

Also, I explained that my take with the song is the OPPOSITE of rape. In fact, is the part of the incident that makes Sandor calm down and leave her, throw away the knife, say "Little Bird" etc. So to me, it only emphasizes how she is diggesting the incident time after it has happened, the positive things.....

As I stated, my take is that if I followed your premise of still being very traumatised, she should completely repress the Kiss, not change the unpleasant experience into a pleasant sexual one. That way, he'd still be the protector/friend he thought he was before the incident.

She is actively daydreaming of what she thinks she should have happened because she now knows that he never wanted to hurt her, on the contrary, and she probably had some sexual feelings for him at that time. Of course, in that ackward situation, they didn't appear. Now, having diggested the whole thing they appear without repressing them.

I feel Sansa should be more traumatised with many other experiences in her life. So maybe everything she says or does are also alterations of her mind

"If the song is an euphemism for rape then you actually believe that he wanted to rape her both in real life and in the dream. I was telling you before that I thought that if she dreams about someone who wants to rape her (the Hound, according to your interpretation) then it makes no sense that she is infatuated with him, because when a FRIEND wants to rape you" 

She doesn't think of her trauma with the Hound in real life. That's the whole point. The trauma is altered when she is awake. Gone. Turned into a pleasant memory of him kissing her. It is this altered memory and her need for his protection  that grows her infatuation. She doesn't think of her Blackwater trauma so it cannot prevent an infatuation happening. 

It's only when she had a triggered nightmare that the true trauma with the Hound made its way past her defenses. 

 

"I feel Sansa should be more traumatised with many other experiences in her life. So maybe everything she says or does are also alterations of her mind"

NO ONE'S STOPPING YOU FROM THINKING THAT. The magic of people interpreting things differently. 

[Meera of Tarth]

18 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

She doesn't think of her trauma with the Hound in real life. That's the whole point. The trauma is altered when she is awake. Gone. Turned into a pleasant memory of him kissing her. It is this altered memory and her need for his protection  that grows her infatuation. She doesn't think of her Blackwater trauma so it cannot prevent an infatuation happening. 

It's only when she had a triggered nightmare that the true trauma with the Hound made its way past her defenses. 

it's interesting then that her mind doesn't explode considering she is experiencing "rape dreams" with the Hound at the same time her mind has convinced her that they gently kissed because he is a romantic protector, lol. Maybe she also forgets them and turns them into other alterations of her mind that are unkown to the readers.

56 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Stop speaking about posters in general, or even assume that someone is a "shipper". Stop using straw men. Nobody here is claiming that people get turned on by almost getting raped. You are cherry picking again, ignoring that the Sandor stand-in stepped in, and Lysa's sexual enjoyment of her wedding night was inescapable, and that after the dream she pets the dog and wishes he's more wolf.

This and this...

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

After Joffrey cuts her father's head off WHAT REASON DOES SHE HAVE TO BE INFATUATED WITH HIM? NONE.

Unlike with the Hound who she STILL NEEDS TO PROTECT HER. 

Well, according to you "needing someone to protect her" is reason to be infatuated with a guy.

If she "needs protection" from one guy who traumatizes her to be infatuated with him, then all that was missing for Sansa to be infatuated with Joffrey was her still wanting Joffrey to protect her. After all, you are roundabout trying to allude to the phenomenon trauma-bonding with an abuser. This is the mechanism where an abuse victim indeed seeks their abuser (even an abuser who beats their victim into hospital, nearly chokes them to death, etc) out to protect them from well themselves really. If this mechanism is happening between Sansa and Sandor, why doesn't it happen with those who actually abuse her and want to abuse her?

Sansa had Dontos has her rescuer. She decided then and there that she did not need Sandor to protect her. She has both been abused and protected by several peoplesince then, and Sandor wasn't there. But your reasoning is that somehow she "needs him to protect her", and the longer he isn't actually there to protect her, she somehow gets more infatuated with him, because she "needs him to protect her"?

Isn't it more logical that she recognizes he wasn't out to hurt her, that she is attracted to him and that the attraction is the cause of her wanting him as her protector as well as a growing sexual desire for him?

[Houseofthedirewolves]

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, according to you "needing someone to protect her" is reason to be infatuated with a guy.

If she "needs protection" from one guy who traumatizes her to be infatuated with him, then all that was missing for Sansa to be infatuated with Joffrey was her still wanting Joffrey to protect her. After all, you are roundabout trying to allude to the phenomenon trauma-bonding with an abuser. This is the mechanism where an abuse victim indeed seeks their abuser (even an abuser who beats their victim into hospital, nearly chokes them to death, etc) out to protect them from well themselves really. If this mechanism is happening between Sansa and Sandor, why doesn't it happen with those who actually abuse her and want to abuse her?

Sansa had Dontos has her rescuer. She decided then and there that she did not need Sandor to protect her. She has both been abused and protected by several peoplesince then, and Sandor wasn't there. But somehow she "needs him to protect her", and the longer he isn't actually there to protect her, she somehow gets more infatuated with him?

•Romanticizing a traumatic memory in her head and convincing herself that the (Unkiss) happened while continuing to think of the Hound when she needs his protection is what led to Sansa becoming infatuated. 

•The necessity to continue this altered memory to maintain a pleasant view of someone (continues her infatuation.)

(First example is with Joffrey from the time of Lady's execution to her father's).  Her altered memory allows her to continue her infatuation for him because Sansa STILL CRAVES that pretty song that he represents to her. After Ned's beheading it wasn't necessary for Sansa to maintain an altered view of Joffrey. She hated him. She no longer believed in the pretty songs. HER infatuation ENDED.

This is not the case with the Hound. It is STILL NECESSARY for her to maintain her altered memory concerning him because she STILL NEEDS his protection. Once she doesn't need the Hound anymore, her infatuation will END. 

"the longer he isn't actually there to protect her, she somehow gets more infatuated with him"

•His absence allows her to continue with her romanticizing. He's not there to dispel it. She can convince herself of him passionately making out with her without him being there to hit her in the face with the truth. 

 "Absence makes the infatuation grow stronger."

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Sandor is just a big ugly scary guy, generally covered with blood and drunk.

How many times in the books (so far) has Sandor been drunk? Twice? (I have clear memories of two times: once at the Blackwater battle and again when he tried to induce Arya to kill him.) Is twice enough to be considered "generally" drunk?

 

3 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

But I'm the one thinking she's more traumatized than she actually is because everything that she has been through is just a piece of cake.

Just as a constructive criticism, casting your argument in binary terms between one extreme of "thoroughly traumatized" versus the opposite extreme of "piece of cake" isn't the most helpful way to have your points taken seriously. Just sayin'.

Carry on.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

28 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

it's interesting then that her mind doesn't explode considering she is experiencing "rape dreams" with the Hound at the same time her mind has convinced her that they gently kissed because he is a romantic protector, lol. Maybe she also forgets them and turns them into other alterations of her mind that are unkown to the readers.

"it's interesting then that her mind doesn't explode considering she is experiencing "rape dreams" with the Hound at the same time her mind has convinced her that they gently kissed because he is a romantic protector, lol."

 

•What even are you saying? Make sense please? When does she think of a gentle kiss during her nightmare?

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped,

•And when Sansa's awake her memory is based on an altered one. Which concept of her memory is altered do you not understand? Is it the altered part? Her trauma led to the Unkiss. And now she replaces the Unkiss with the actual memory of what happened, allowing her to maintain her view of the Hound as her protector. The Unkiss plus constantly thinking of the Hound as her protector leads to her infatuation.

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

"it's interesting then that her mind doesn't explode considering she is experiencing "rape dreams" with the Hound at the same time her mind has convinced her that they gently kissed because he is a romantic protector, lol."

 

What even are you saying? Make sense please? When does she think of a gentle kiss during her nightmare?

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped,

And when Sansa's awake her memory is based on an altered one. Which concept of her memory is altered do you not understand? Is it the altered part? Her trauma led to the Unkiss. And now she replaces the Unkiss with the actual memory of what happened, allowing her to maintain her view of the Hound as her protector. The Unkiss plus constantly thinking of the Hound as her protector leads to her infatuation.

the dream is a rape dream according to you (the euphemism). She is AWARE of the "nightmare". The daydream is about pleasant kisses.....this is what her mind has convinced herself of what the incident was. My point is those two experiences (the daydream and the dream) should confuse again her mind a lot, or even make it "explode". (A.k.a make her mind think that something is not working well.....=oh. "I created an infatuation that was not real!").

(unless she creates another alternative version of her dream with the Hound that doesn't contradict her invented infatuation).

[Le Cygne]

I think it's more like SHE has convinced herself they kissed. I think she knows what she's doing, when she's being honest with herself. She's pretending they kissed because she wishes they had kissed (and much more).

Anyway I like the dagger part a lot as you know, it's the part that represents what was simmering beneath the surface that night, and it all calls back to that night. Like here, this is the story he's telling for Sansa and the Hound:

Those familiar with the 1991 cartoon will recognize some of the elements of the story, but certainly not the tone. Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

(took out the wrong quote)

[HoodedCrow]

Dreams can shift, and Martin likely knows this.

After a wacko experience with her aunt being vocal about pleasure, which was probably unsettling, she almost gets raped by a singer, a favorite of Lysa, who is a nasty guy. (Another reason for letting him be framed later).

Her dream contains Marillion who was sincerely trying to coerce her.  Tyrion, her wedded husband, was unappealing but was actually trying to help her, protected her, and could have raped her legally, and who was pressured by his father, yet refrained. The Hound actually saved her life, and wanted to run off with her. Three men desired her, but I think this series shows contrasts about her development, not similarity. She correctly realizes that Marillion( a handsome pop star more or less) was not nice, Tyrion was kind and respected her wishes, despite his desire, appearance, family and legal rights, and the Hound was understandable though brutish and a little sexy. 

She does seem confused, not surprising, given her age, training and experiences. Add to all Sansa's trauma her correct change of heart with Joffrey, her unrequited desire for an appealing gay knight and all the icky weirdness of LF, what the heck will she do next. And yes, she would be a less ordinary girl if she didn't fantasize a bit. She does have a ways to go to connect the dots.

[LongRider]

14 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Tyrion was kind and respected her wishes

He so respected her that he gave Tywin the thinnest of arguments for not marrying her, until Tywin said the magic words 'Lord of Winterfell' and his kindness and respect ,which were never there anyway, went the way of his greed and his cock.  Sansa never forgot that Tyrion is a member of the family that had her family destroyed and tried to steal her ancestral home.  Nor can she forget how she was forced at swordpoint to marry him.  For all his 'kindness and respect' she sure ran away from him as soon as she got the chance.

[Meera of Tarth]

29 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think that's close, but it's more like SHE has convinced herself they kissed. I think she knows what she's doing, when she's being honest with herself. She's pretending they kissed because she wished they had kissed (and much more).

Anyway I like the dagger part a lot as you know, it's the part that represents what was simmering beneath the surface that night, and it all calls back to that night. Like here, this is the story he's telling for Sansa and the Hound:

Those familiar with the 1991 cartoon will recognize some of the elements of the story, but certainly not the tone. Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

Actually...in that post I was quoting statements from the creator of the thread trying to explain a point following his premises.

my take is that she is a bit confused but she knows it didn't happen. I have explained it earlier in this thread. I think she knows it (she can be a little confused and the more she thinks about it she might "believe" more her version) but deep inside she knows what happened. I think she had a few repressed sexual desires for him when he came to her bed but the dagger didn't help them to arose them. She was a little scared. And I am saying a little because she knew he would not hurt her but he was drunk and she clearly would have preferred a kiss rather than what he was doing to her. It's my humble interpretation of the moment. But then when he makes her sing the song....this is a moment that appears in her dream. She now wants to kiss him. Both in her dreams and in real life. The song is something she remembers as something good. She suggested the whole thing and now would have wanted him to have kissed her and that's why she daydreams of the unkiss that never happened. She would want it to happen and to have happened. She desires him with no repression. also I think it's possible that there is a part of "sexual desire" mixed with the fear of the dagger that she didn't understand at that time. Not very fan of it though.

about the dagger....yeah I am not a fan of it in the scene but I understand its meaning and it's very obvious there is a "kind of gothic romantic" theme there and the readers know that what he is doing is exactly the opposite of his actions....he wanted to kiss her actually I think. Also there is the obvious sexual meaning.

and as I have said.....the dream only focuses on what she really would have liked......what she would really want now. There is the possibility that it also plays a difference with the previous one with Tyrion....being Sandor the one she prefers and/or the man that comes to her rescue after remembering the wedding night.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

the dream is a rape dream according to you (the euphemism). She is AWARE of the "nightmare". The daydream is about pleasant kisses.....this is what her mind has convinced herself of what the incident was. My point is those two experiences (the daydream and the dream) should confuse again her mind a lot, or even make it "explode". (A.k.a make her mind think that something is not working well.....=oh. "I created an infatuation that was not real!").

(unless she creates another alternative version of her dream with the Hound that doesn't contradict her invented infatuation).

Her mind cannot explode because as soon as she wakes her nightmare is one more thing replaced with her altered memory. If ugly doubts creep up they will instantly get repressed. Sansa's good at repressing.  

but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya

Even the truth about Marillion and her Aunt's death become nothing more than a bad dream in her mind.

All that she needs to do to maintain her peace of mind is to tell herself that her nightmare about the Hound was nothing more than a bad dream.

[zandru]

37 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

How many times in the books (so far) has Sandor been drunk? Twice? (I have clear memories of two times: once at the Blackwater battle and again when he tried to induce Arya to kill him.) Is twice enough to be considered "generally" drunk?

We have several scenes where Sansa is alone with the Hound. Once is after the  first day of the Hand's Tourney, when he complains of having drunk too much wine as he leads her back to the castle. Another is when they run into one another on the serpentine as he staggers drunkenly out of a door. Sandor appears sober the night on the roof of Maegor's Keep. Also at Joffrey's Name Day tourney. But again after the Battle on the Blackwater, he's drunker than she's ever seen him.

Personally, I think that Joffrey becoming king drove him to up his alcohol consumption. Afterwards, there was the PTSD (as if he doesn't already have enough of that.) In short, it seems Sandor has been drunk more often than not - when not on duty. At least half of the most emotionally significant encounters have been when Sandor is drunk.

[zandru]

17 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

[Tyrion] so respected that he gave Tywin the thinnest of arguments for not marrying her, until Tywin said the magic words 'Lord of Winterfell' and his kindness and respect ,which were never there anyway, went the way of his greed and his cock. 

Wait a minute! Let's not start on poor Tyrion. As I recall, he agreed reluctantly to marriage with Sansa knowing his father would find some more awful Lannister to pair her off with. Tyrion thought that giving her to him was a really dirty, nasty trick, but at least he was old and mature enough to treat her decently and protect her from Joffrey's promised rapine. And also Winterfell.

It's too bad that Sansa, never a very good judge of character**, didn't at least give Tyrion a chance. He was willing to put off the consumation indefinitely, and would have been hers for life had she shown him the slightest kindness, or even basic human decency. But Sansa preferred to pout, when she could have had a powerful and intelligent ally who hated Lannisters as much as she did.

------

** She did get Littlefinger right at their first meeting, though. We have to give her that.