Will Sansa’s Unkiss amount to nothing more than the active over imagination of a young girl concerning the guy that protected her?

[Meera of Tarth]

24 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

She's not daydreaming. She is not thinking of a kiss "she would have liked". She is thinking of a kiss that she actually believed happened. That is the problem. She has altered reality and convinced herself that something that did not happen actually happened. That is not daydreaming. That is a disturbing disconnect from reality. 

Both wanted to Kiss. He was drunk, vulnerable and did something that I personally don't approve and don't like (despite acknowledging the intention of the writer). But they had a story tgether previously. They had already bonded. She is probably the first person that gets to know his biggest trauma, and that's in their first encounter. See, I like them together, and want them together but they are not my favourite pairing in the books. so I am not the best person to explain their relationship to you, but I've read it and it exists. The excerpt I quoted shows many things apart from the moment when she is scared. It is written that she "insticntively goes to touch his face". I can tell this is romantic, but if you don't see or don't want to see it, I can't change your point of view. The books are full of these.

So, with that on mind, daydreaming about the Kiss they were about to have (because they both wanted to Kiss as it is obvious from the scene, many other posters have brought insight on their thoughts during the scene) is fantasizing about something you like. It's easy. It's like being a pre-teenage girl having gone to the cinema with your crush and you were holding hands. But you didn't Kiss. Then you go home and daydream about you kissing. It's the easiest example I can find so as that you understand this.

I know the dagger thing bothers you a lot. It bothers me, but the fact you don't like Sandor at all and you can't stand the possibility of SanSan as a whole, their story apart from those three lines, makes you see nothing more than those three lines. But it exists and it's there. I don't know if they will ever Kiss and have a happy ending, I suspect their romance will blossom, but I don't know the ending, but it's obvious they are in love with each other. And the unkiss may lead to other things apart from their love story, but denying this fact is just not reading further than those three lines that are just a Gothic Romantic tale with lots of symbolism.

And I'll tell you something, I watched the show we can't mention here before Reading the books, and I found something there. Did I like them at that time? I was indifferent to their love story, I didn't "ship" them, I just liked their friendship, but I saw something.. Then I read the books, read the insights of other posters and started to like their story, not my favourite pairing, but I like it. After rewatching, I also like it enough in the show we can't mention here. It's not a matter of shipping. It's a matter of Reading further your own views and acknowledging that wht is there it's there. So even if Sandor is a bad guy according to you, it doesn't change the fact that Sansa daydreams about him, altering her memory, but NOT because she is traumatised as I showed you in the excerpt. (She has bigger traumas that have not resulted in loving someone she doesn't really love). I don't know, I'd challenge you to follow one of my premises, like Sansa already loving him, and then apply your method and discover if there is something else in the unkiss, but I know you don't accept this, so it's pointless.

 That's why I tried to follow your logic, and make lots of assumptions I don't agree with, but when someone doesn't want to agree with the other in anything even if that person is trying to follow your logic, there's no room for debate and we can just aree to disagree.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

17 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

did you read the long-ass response I posted a few minutes ago explaining what I meant?

I read it. Didn't agree but interesting concept

[zandru]

21 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

A kiss didn't actually happen. But she believed it would. Anyway I'm starting a new thread posting my theory on why Sansa's mind turned the Blackwater incident into the Unkiss. 

Looking forward to it!

[Houseofthedirewolves]

19 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Both wanted to Kiss. He was drunk, vulnerable and did something that I personally don't approve and don't like (despite acknowledging the intention of the writer). But they had a story tgether previously. They had already bonded. She is probably the first person that gets to know his biggest trauma, and that's in their first encounter. See, I like them together, and want them together but they are not my favourite pairing in the books. so I am not the best person to explain their relationship to you, but I've read it and it exists. The excerpt I quoted shows many things apart from the moment when she is scared. It is written that she "insticntively goes to touch his face". I can tell this is romantic, but if you don't see or don't want to see it, I can't change your point of view. The books are full of these.

So, with that on mind, daydreaming about the Kiss they were about to have (because they both wanted to Kiss as it is obvious from the scene, many other posters have brought insight on their thoughts during the scene) is fantasizing about something you like. It's easy. It's like being a pre-teenage girl having gone to the cinema with your crush and you were holding hands. But you didn't Kiss. Then you go home and daydream about you kissing. It's the easiest example I can find so as that you understand this.

I know the dagger thing bothers you a lot. It bothers me, but the fact you don't like Sandor at all and you can't stand the possibility of SanSan as a whole, their story apart from those three lines, makes you see nothing more than those three lines. But it exists and it's there. I don't know if they will ever Kiss and have a happy ending, I suspect their romance will blossom, but I don't know the ending, but it's obvious they are in love with each other. And the unkiss may lead to other things apart from their love story, but denying this fact is just not reading further than those three lines that are just a Gothic Romantic tale with lots of symbolism.

And I'll tell you something, I watched the show we can't mention here before Reading the books, and I found something there. Did I like them at that time? I was indifferent to their love story, I didn't "ship" them, I just liked their friendship, but I saw something.. Then I read the books, read the insights of other posters and started to like their story, not my favourite pairing, but I like it. After rewatching, I also like it enough in the show we can't mention here. It's not a matter of shipping. It's a matter of Reading further your own views and acknowledging that wht is there it's there. So even if Sandor is a bad guy according to you, it doesn't change the fact that Sansa daydreams about him, altering her memory, but NOT because she is traumatised as I showed you in the excerpt. (She has bigger traumas that have not resulted in loving someone she doesn't really love). I don't know, I'd challenge you to follow one of my premises, like Sansa already loving him, and then apply your method and discover if there is something else in the unkiss, but I know you don't accept this, so it's pointless.

 That's why I tried to follow your logic, and make lots of assumptions I don't agree with, but when someone doesn't want to agree with the other in anything even if that person is trying to follow your logic, there's no room for debate and we can just aree to disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree because the back and forth is going round and round and everyone maintains their own interpretation. Happy reading, here's to George clarifying things in the final books

[Meera of Tarth]

2 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

We'll have to agree to disagree because the back and forth is going round and round and everyone maintains their own interpretation. Happy reading, here's to George clarifying things in the final books

I agree

[zandru]

1 minute ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

We'll have to agree to disagree because the back and forth is going round and round and everyone maintains their own interpretation. Happy reading, here's to George clarifying things in the final books

This really says it all, although going around and around was fun, everyone trying to grab that brass ring.

There's the text, and it's definitive (as much as we have of it). There's the interpretations, which can vary significantly, as we have seen. There's also cherry-picking, which is a no-no, but too often is a major factor in those interpretations. And, of course, the interpretations can be skewed significantly by one's feelings towards the different characters.

The thing is, I've seen (and unfortunately, participated in) several of these and the one constant is, YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON'S OPINION. Although it's sort of fun, challenging to try. I particularly liked the "protector" interpretation and the Fingers dream-as-nightmare interpretation. The review has been helpful, and I appreciate the detailed quotes.

Thanks, all of you! (now, we're coming near to my "stupid" phase and I'm surrendering the keyboard)

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

12 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

I read it. Didn't agree but interesting concept

LOL that is generally the best response I hope for on the forum  

I highly recommend checking out the thread I linked to explaining telepathy. That is if you would like to read some ultra-interesting ideas that you can disagree with  

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

So if in Alayne II, after her last incarnation of the unkiss, she says "That day is done."  She stops thinking about it and as far as we can tell doesn't seem to think of it again.  If this was her trauma coping mechanism and she has set it aside, doesn't that mean she's relieved of the trauma that plagued her?  Like she's gotten closure?  If she doesn't feel the need to hold on to it anymore, isn't that a good sign?

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

So even if Sandor is a bad guy according to you, it doesn't change the fact that Sansa daydreams about him, altering her memory, but NOT because she is traumatised

Thanks Meera!  

Sansa likes the 'bad boy' type.

Although Wizzy ( @Wizz-The-Smith ) has sent some video clips casting doubt on GRRM's intentions regarding Sansa's 'unreliable narration' of the so-called 'unkiss', which have made me reconsider whether her gothic fantasies might instead end in tragedy rather than a happy ending:

 

 

 

Perhaps GRRM has in store for Sansa -- whom @Pain killer Jane has identified as a 'blue falcon' traitor -- to betray both her family and Sandor in future.  I could imagine a scenario, for example, similar to that which transpires in the classic modern novel 'A Passage to India' by E.M. Forster, in which a prudish white English woman unfairly accuses an attractive muslim Indian man of raping her, having heard an echo which spooked her imagination while visiting the 'Marabar caves', which somehow inspired her to projecting --  yes 'projecting' (I know it when I see it...) -- her own 'forbidden' desires onto the man in question, buying into the fallacy that 'only Indians lust for white women; not versa'. (Likewise, Sansa would never lust for the Hound, naturally...; it's the Hound who is an 'animal' -- that's why he's call the 'Hound')!  This results in a trial in which the woman testifies against him using the fragments of her 'faulty memory' to influence the prejudiced court, substantiated by among other things the exhibit of a ruined pair of glasses used as evidence against the accused man, which might be mirrored in Sansa potentially producing the torn, bloodied Kingsguard cloak against Sandor in future to prove he 'raped' her somehow (does she still have that cloak, or did she dye it green? What's the consensus?)

Quote

From wikipedia:

Marabar Caves[edit]

Aziz and the women explore the caves. In the first cave, Mrs. Moore is overcome with claustrophobia. But worse than the claustrophobia is the echo. Disturbed by the sound, Mrs. Moore declines to continue exploring. Adela and Aziz, accompanied by a guide, climb to the next caves.

Adela's illusion[edit]

As Aziz helps Adela up the hill, she asks whether he has more than one wife. Disconcerted by the bluntness of the remark, he ducks into a cave to compose himself. When he comes out, he finds the guide alone outside the caves. The guide says Adela has gone into a cave by herself. Aziz looks for her in vain. Deciding she is lost, he strikes the guide, who runs away. Aziz looks around and discovers Adela's field glasses lying broken on the ground. He puts them in his pocket.

Then Aziz looks down the hill and sees Adela speaking to another young Englishwoman, Miss Derek, who has arrived with Fielding in a car. Aziz runs down the hill and greets Fielding, but Miss Derek and Adela drive off without explanation. Fielding, Mrs. Moore, and Aziz return to Chandrapore on the train.

Aziz's arrest[edit]

At the train station, Aziz is arrested and charged with sexually assaulting Adela in a cave. The run-up to his trial releases the racial tensions between the British and the Indians. Adela says that Aziz followed her into the cave and tried to grab her, and that she fended him off by swinging her field glasses at him. The only evidence the British have is the field glasses in the possession of Aziz. Despite this, the British colonists believe that Aziz is guilty. They are stunned when Fielding proclaims his belief in Aziz's innocence. Fielding is ostracised and condemned as a blood-traitor. But the Indians, who consider the assault allegation a fraud, welcome him.

Moore mystery[edit]

During the weeks before the trial, Mrs. Moore is apathetic and irritable. Although she professes her belief in Aziz's innocence, she does nothing to help him. Ronny, alarmed by his mother's assertion that Aziz is innocent, arranges for her return by ship to England before she can testify at the trial. Mrs. Moore dies during the voyage. Her absence from India becomes a major issue at the trial, where Aziz's legal defenders assert that her testimony would have proven the accused's innocence.

Trial scene[edit]

Adela becomes confused as to Aziz's guilt. At the trial, she is asked whether Aziz sexually assaulted her. She has a vision of the cave, and it turns out that Adela had, while in the cave, received a shock similar to Mrs. Moore's. The echo had disconcerted her so much that she became unhinged. At the time, Adela mistakenly interpreted her shock as an assault by Aziz. She admits that she was mistaken, and the case is dismissed. (Note: In the 1913 draft of the novel, EM Forster had Aziz guilty of the assault and found guilty in the court but changed this in the 1924 draft to create a more ambiguous ending.)

In any case -- there's only one thing of which I'm sure with respect to Sansa and Sandor... Sansa is not the victim here (although she very definitely is the victim in the Littlefinger scenario).

[Prof. Cecily]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL that is generally the best response I hope for on the forum  

...

What! My desire to kick ancient cork tress wasn't enough for you? 

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

T

Spoiler

 

hanks Meera!  

Sansa likes the 'bad boy' type.

Although Wizzy ( @Wizz-The-Smith ) has sent some video clips casting doubt on GRRM's intentions regarding Sansa's 'unreliable narration' of the so-called 'unkiss', which have made me reconsider whether her gothic fantasies might instead end in tragedy rather than a happy ending:

 

 

 

Perhaps GRRM has in store for Sansa -- whom @Pain killer Jane has identified as a 'blue falcon' traitor -- to betray both her family and Sandor in future.  I could imagine a scenario, for example, similar to that which transpires in the classic modern novel 'A Passage to India' by E.M. Forster,

Spoiler

 

in which a prudish white English woman unfairly accuses an attractive muslim Indian man of raping her, having heard an echo which spooked her imagination while visiting the 'Marabar caves', which somehow inspired her to projecting --  yes 'projecting' (I know it when I see it...) -- her own 'forbidden' desires onto the man in question, buying into the fallacy that 'only Indians lust for white women; not versa'. (Likewise, Sansa would never lust for the Hound, naturally...; it's the Hound who is an 'animal' -- that's why he's call the 'Hound')!  This results in a trial in which the woman testifies against him using the fragments of her 'faulty memory' to influence the prejudiced court, substantiated by among other things the exhibit of a ruined pair of glasses used as evidence against the accused man, which might be mirrored in Sansa potentially producing the torn, bloodied Kingsguard cloak against Sandor in future to prove he 'raped' her somehow (does she still have that cloak, or did she dye it green? What's the consensus?)

In any case -- there's only one thing of which I'm sure with respect to Sansa and Sandor... Sansa is not the victim here (although she very definitely is the victim in the Littlefinger scenario).

 

 

Kudos on the Passage to India catch! Something has nagged me about the Marillion trial since I first read it- thanks for pinning it down.

I completely agree with @Pain killer Jane's  'blue falcon' characterisation of our Sansa and your possible future trial of Sandor sounds right. Still, only two books to go and SO much to write about...

I haven't seen the vids. I shall after work.

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

1) He is not innocent because he lied about why the wolf attacked him. If he hadn't lied, things wouldn't have escalated.

a) Sansa herself had a chance to tell the truth. But she refrained from doing so.

b ) The wolf that attacked him was Nymeria. Joffrey never said Lady attacked him or was a danger to him, nor did he demand Lady to be put down. Joffrey's not responsible for Cersei's demand to have another wolf killed, but Cersei, and Robert by agreeing.

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

2) He provoked the entire situation. Something that Sansa was present for. So now two action of his influenced her wolf's death.

Joffrey provoked the Trident situation. He did not provoke the killing of Lady. Plenty of people had been given multiple information and versions and to decide responsibly as adults. Joffrey is not responsible of that.

 

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

By your argument, Ned is the only person responsible since he actually killed the wolf seeing you want to be so technical.

Ned is not the sole person responsible, but he is to an extent. Cersei demanded it. Robert gave in so not to have any more argument, later admitting he knew Joffrey was lying. And Ned obeyed. He knows he is partly responsible, because he later asks himself what he has done once he learns how Summer saved Bran's life.

 

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

4) Nope. Sansa blaming Arya is still evidence of her delusion. Arya didn't kill the wolf so she's innocent. According to you, after all.

Yes, Arya is innocent of Lady's death.

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

 But by the evidence readers were given some of us can deduct that Joffrey's (provocation and lying), Arya (attacking the prince), and Cersei's (order for the wolf to be killed) all also influenced the death of lady and doomed her before Ned even swung the sword. So Sansa was right to blame all three of them. 

They all played a part in the cause that Cersei used to demand Lady to be killed, including Sansa. But it doesn't make them responsible of her death. 

 

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

It's time for you to learn cause and effect because your attempt at nitpicking is making me laugh now. There has to be a logic to it and you're lacking it.

Seems to me I have a far better grip on cause and effect than you do with your "No, she's absolutely not attracted to Sandor, but horribly traumatized with fear of being reaped by him, that's why she imagines the Unkiss and falls in love with him".

Effect is an involuntary result of an action or choice made: throwing a ball (cause) -> breaking the window (effect). It is NOT, "throwing a ball (cause) -> "angry citizen beating an innocent kid up, because another kid broke the window" (effect). That citizen whose window was broken is fully responsible on how they respond to the damage.

11 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

What happened at the trident CAUSED the events that led to Lady's death. It influenced Lady's death. Joffrey bullying and attacking the Butcher's boy CAUSED Arya to attack him. Which CAUSED Joffrey to start hacking the sword in her direction. Which CAUSED Nymeria to attack. Which CAUSED Arya to send Nymeria away. Neither of them are innocent at this point. But Joffrey kicked off the events. Sansa knows this because she's there. WITHOUT this part, NONE OF THE OTHER PART WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. So you cannot just conveniently say this part doesn't matter because this INFLUENCED EVERYTHING. 

And every time there was a balance and check moment for the adults and decision makers involved to come to a responsible, fair decision, and they did not take it.

If a parent makes awful decisions about a children brawl, who is responsible for the wrong decision? Those children who brawled or the parent making the decision? The parent is. The children are only responsible for the brawl.

Kids do lie about who started a fight all the time, for all sorts of reasons. They shouldn't, but they will. And it's a parents' responsibility to learn to deal with that and make decisions, when they have no verification whatsoever who did what. Parents who pick sides and believe one child without question and blaming it all on another child, and parents who know their child is lying but still punish an animal or human being who's not at all involved are irresponsible adults. And yes that weighs more to me than whatever brawling kids do.

[Springwatch]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

... And every time there was a balance and check moment for the adults and decision makers involved to come to a responsible, fair decision, and they did not take it.

...

The decision was not fair, but it was entirely reasonable. If Joffrey is going to abuse his betrothed - and that's pretty obvious to anyone who knows him - when he abuses her, it is essential that she's not armed with a savage giant wolf.

I can't understand why Ned went along with it, though.

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The decision was not fair, but it was entirely reasonable. If Joffrey is going to abuse his betrothed - and that's pretty obvious to anyone who knows him - when he abuses her, it is essential that she's not armed with a savage giant wolf.

I can't understand why Ned went along with it, though.

Indeed, Cersei was never going to allow those wolves to remain alive in the Red Keep.

Agreed: it was the writing on the wall. Robert was acting as "judge". And he rather sacrificed innocent lives (a wolf and a commoner's child) over facing Cersei or setting his son to rights. That incident should have warned Ned that his belief that once he had evidence of Lannister involvement in either Jon Arryn's death or the assassination attempts on Bran, Robert would make fair and proper decisions was utter folly.

BTW I never said that Cersei's demand was unreasonable from her POV. I said "coming to a responsible, fair decision". Responsible is not the same word as reasonable.

[zandru]

28 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That incident should have warned Ned

Poor Ned got so many opportunities to decline the Hand's job (hmm, that sounds bad). First, he could have done it right off, before things got serious. Second, Bran's fall and prolonged coma - Ned could have told Robert, this changes everything. Sorry, your grace. Then the Mycah incident, which revealed that Robert wasn't even competent to resolve a children's dispute, let alone rule the 7 Kingdoms. Ned could have packed up right then and there, with his two daughters, their still-living wolves, and all their men, and headed back North.

The Lannisters would have ultimately made their power grab and war broken out, but Ned could have been one of the leaders of the rebellion with Robb as his strong right arm.

Sorry for the digression.

[Meera of Tarth]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Thanks Meera!  

Sansa likes the 'bad boy' type.

Although Wizzy ( @Wizz-The-Smith ) has sent some video clips casting doubt on GRRM's intentions regarding Sansa's 'unreliable narration' of the so-called 'unkiss', which have made me reconsider whether her gothic fantasies might instead end in tragedy rather than a happy ending:

Yes, indeed, he likes that type of men, and it's obvious she doesn't fantasize about him because she has the biggest trauma of her life (otherwise wouldn not have written her touching Sandor's cheek after the dagger thing, and when he left she was very calm). That's the whole point I a have been trying to explain in this thread many times (I lost count of how many times but since I have been told we should disaree with the OP, then that's it).

I don't know about their ending, I hardly doubt she will betray her family and Sandor. That would only happen if Litlefinger totally destroys her as a person, and I would like to think this won't happen, since she is stronger than that. I think she will have a romance with Sandor that will end in a kind of happy ending or a tragic romance.

In fact, she has positive memories of the Hound, and she is proud of her family at this point of the story. It would be an unfitting twist to make her change her personality 180 degrees. She would be a completely different person, and I don't think this is Sansa's case, even with the influence with LF. She even thinks about Jon, who she was not very fond of in her narrative in the Vale.I think she'd destroy LF instead, if anything.

[Meera of Tarth]

14 hours ago, zandru said:

Why's that? Are "daggers" (and "swords") phallic symbols, but knives are not? How about dirks? Stilettos? Flaying knives? (Now I'm just tryin' to get under your skin)

It's often used in literature and TV,

[Le Cygne]

14 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Therapy together, feels better

Yep, I bet he is "traumatised" by that tenderness!

Yep. The T word that really applies here is Tenderness. That's the way they are both thinking about each other.

As for the GRRM clips...

It's a sexual awakening story based on Beauty and the Beast. (Cocteau clip here and more Cocteau and Beauty and the Beast here.) Sansa's enjoying the heck out of the whole thing.

The Blackwater scene was a symbolic marriage night. Everything was there, the tall strong man giving her his cloak and (thanks to Sansa) kissing her. That's her thousand times dream.

It's symbolic foreshadowing, a hint of what's to come. And that night is called back to in her dreams and then she places Sandor in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her.

She caresses his face. She gets under his cloak and the bells ring in hills and hollows (classic FEMALE orgasm imagery). Then she puts his cloak in a cedar chest (a hope chest) with her summer silks.

Let's reach for that SIMPLE explanation first, since we have a ton of evidence to support it. GRRM is constantly teasing SanSan. Someone asked about their future and he WINKED.

By the way GRRM put a picture of them riding off together on his website... it's a romantic depiction of this night. He also requested a picture of this night just like the Cocteau picture for a calendar.

(And he has that picture prominently placed in his office, by the way.)

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yep. The T word that really applies here is Tenderness. That's the way they are both thinking about each other.

As for the GRRM clips...

It's a sexual awakening story based on Beauty and the Beast. (Cocteau clip here and more Cocteau and Beauty and the Beast here.) Sansa's enjoying the heck out of the whole thing.

The Blackwater scene was a symbolic marriage night. Everything was there, the tall strong man giving her his cloak and (thanks to Sansa) kissing her. That's her thousand times dream.

It's symbolic foreshadowing, a hint of what's to come. And that night is called back to in her dreams and then she places Sandor in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her.

She caresses his face. She gets under his cloak and the bells ring in hills and hollows (classic FEMALE orgasm imagery). Then she puts his cloak in a cedar chest (a hope chest) with her summer silks.

Sansa is going to climb Sandor like a tree when she sees him again. That's what the unkiss means. Keep It Simple Silly. A kiss is just a kiss, the fundamental things apply as time goes by.

Let's reach for that SIMPLE explanation first, since we have a ton of evidence to support it. GRRM is constantly teasing SanSan. Someone asked about their future and he WINKED.

By the way GRRM put a picture of them riding off together on his website... it's a romantic depiction of this night. He also requested a picture of this night just like the Cocteau picture for a calendar.

(And he has that picture prominently placed in his office, by the way.)

I Totally agree.

[lady-alayne]

On 6/15/2017 at 8:26 AM, ravenous reader said:

In any case -- there's only one thing of which I'm sure with respect to Sansa and Sandor... Sansa is not the victim here (although she very definitely is the victim in the Littlefinger scenario).

I am really scared to get into another discussion going round and round where no one can convince the other, but I have to say I disagree.

A lot can be interpreted into the imagery and description of that night and it was very interesting to read all of your interpretations (I learned a lot!) but if you just look at what happened I would argue that Sansa is a victim. He frightens her, threatens her with a dagger, shoves her on the bed. He probably even wanted to rape her, if what he later tells Arya is true. I cannot look at this and not think of Sansa as a victim.

Now speaking about LF (that's a litte off topic, sorry), yes she certainly is a victim of unwanted advances but it's a lot more subtle. LF is a creep, but he has never held a dagger to her throat and threatened her with murder. And Sansa has a lot more agency and has gotten very good at rejecting his advances just as subtly as he is making them (His training is showing its effects. I'm waiting for her to cause his downfall using his the very lessons he has taught her against him). Yes, it still sucks for her, but she is not as helpless as she was in KL. Unlike Sandor, Littlefinger is a man Sansa can fend off, because they are fighting with the same weapons.

[Lifestream]

OP, I think you're really undermining the bond between Sansa and Sandor. Sansa isn't Cersei who values only strength and spits on weakness.

 

Sansa has seen Sandor at his weakest and she's never turned away her face in disgust, on the contrary she has extended a hand and offered him support, understanding and word of comforts. Sansa empathize with Sandor on a deeper level.

 

When Sandor is accompanying Sansa after the Hand's tourney, he shows her a very vulnerable and unguarded side. And Sansa truly is concerned about his well-being and tells him what he needs to hear. That Gregor is "no true knight".

 

ThDuring the Battle of the Blackwater that Sandor is broken and he acts in that violent manner, Sansa's inctinct is to touch him and she feels a wetness that was not blood. Sandor is crying, and Sansa never judged him negatively on that.

Even when she's thinking over what people are saying about the Hound's desertion, that he's turned craven, Sansa sympathizes with him and thinks that she was very scared while inside and she could not imagine how much scarier it'd be outside.

 

I'd also like to point out that Sansa doesn't think Sandor only in terms of protection and strength. She compares many men to him, whether it's their height, voice etc. She also seems to value his honesty and the advice he gave her while she still was in KL.

 

And finally, Sandor seems to be pushing Loras out of Sansa's fantasies and that has been happening since AGOT. Loras cheats while facing Gregor in the Hand's tourney, angering Gregor as a result who's about to attack Loras but Sandor intervenes and for once is hailed as a hero. This is an interesting comparison as appearance wise we can see who comes out on top, but look at how dishonorable Loras appears to be and how honorable Sandor proves himself to be.

Then again, when she's hiding in the Vale as Alayne Stone, while trying to get Sweetrobin out of bed, he latches on her and kisses her. She decides to instead think of Loras kissing, well shit Loras ends up reminding her another kiss come one.

Quote

Before she could summon the servants, however, Sweetrobin threw his skinny arms around her and kissed her. It was a little boy's kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her . . . and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.

 

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

 

Do I also need to mention the dream where Tyrion is on her bed and he turns into Sandor?