Heresy 201 and onward we go...

[Juliet Burke]

Is it really true that Parris McBride-Martin has an alternative theory about Jon's parentage, which caused George's evil smile?

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Up to a point it might, but I think it would only be a matter of perception; seeing things in a different light. This might in turn affect or influence future events accordingly, but given the different concept of time I think we're looking at the old concept of the oil tanker which needs a couple of miles to stop or turn.

If we say for the sake of argument that the tree huggers are currently engaged in a cunning plan to wipe out all mankind, and Bran enables them to see the error of their ways its going to take a couple of hundred years to shut it down, and in the meantime winter is coming

No I agree, if Bran becomes part of the weirnet his consciousness may be an influence on it, but only one of many.  If the Weirnet did create the White Walkers, I do wonder why they made them into knights (or as Cotter Pyke puts it a "child's snow knight").  We're told over and over how fascinated Bran is with knights, so perhaps this may be an example of Bran's influence in the weirnet.

I do think GRRM has created an opening for future actions affecting the past through the weirnet, however.  We're told time is a river for humans going in only one direction, but time works differently for the trees.  So if a human's consciousness becomes part of the tree, does time start working differently for the consciousness?

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Juliet Burke said:

Is it really true that Parris McBride-Martin has an alternative theory about Jon's parentage, which caused George's evil smile?

I think what you are referring to comes from a convention (ConJose) from back in 2002.  Someone summarized the questions and answers at the con this was one of the summaries:

Quote

(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.
HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Juliet Burke said:

Is it really true that Parris McBride-Martin has an alternative theory about Jon's parentage, which caused George's evil smile?

 

This is what Werthead had to say some time ago:

 

http://asoiaf.wester...n-thread/page-3

 

Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

 

and;

 

Posted 07 May 2006 - 06:20 AM

Riiiiight. I see that that that point sparked some interesting discussion, so here's what I remember (whilst recalling a large amount of alcohol was consumed in the interim).

Parris doesn't get to see the finished book much before anyone else. She is George's first reader, so sees the finished product before even the editors and makes comments on it, but that is it. That said, they do discuss the storyline and some directions the story is taking ahead of time, but as for reading the written product...not before George has finished it. Apparently the sole exception to this was The Armageddon Rag, where George needed her advice on what songs to put in the book, as she was a bit more familiar with the 1960s rock 'n' roll scene.

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

No I agree, if Bran becomes part of the weirnet his consciousness may be an influence on it, but only one of many.  If the Weirnet did create the White Walkers, I do wonder why they made them into knights (or as Cotter Pyke puts it a "child's snow knight").  We're told over and over how fascinated Bran is with knights, so perhaps this may be an example of Bran's influence in the weirnet.

I do think GRRM has created an opening for future actions affecting the past through the weirnet, however.  We're told time is a river for humans going in only one direction, but time works differently for the trees.  So if a human's consciousness becomes part of the tree, does time start working differently for the consciousness?

I think the consciousness can actively go into the trees when a greenseer uses it thus.  If there is a collective consciousness; it involves anyone currently hooked up to or hacking the weirnet.  The trees themselves seem to act more like a memory palace, a storage place for enhanced memory practitioners like Bran who will remember everything at some point. 

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the consciousness can actively go into the trees when a greenseer uses it thus.  If there is a collective consciousness; it involves anyone currently hooked up to or hacking the weirnet.  The trees themselves seem to act more like a memory palace, a storage place for enhanced memory practitioners like Bran who will remember everything at some point. 

 

 

I think there may be a difference from using the weirwoods as a greenseer, and then ultimately becoming a part of the weirwood network upon death.  This may be similar to the difference between Orell skinchanging the eagle, and his becoming an actual part of the eagle upon his death.  Orell's death and merger with the eagle fundamentally changes the personality of the eagle.  It imbues his eagle with a hatred of Jon Snow.

Quote

"When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered.  All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world.  Maesters will tell you that the weirwood are sacred to the old gods.  The singers believe they are the old gods.  When singers die they become part of that godhood." 

So they truly don't become part of the weirwoods until they die.  So presumably the weirnet gains everything they knew about the world.  Now since the weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, does the knowledge gained by the weirnet transcend time?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So they truly don't become part of the weirwoods until they die.  So presumably the weirnet gains everything they knew about the world.  Now since the weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, does the knowledge gained by the weirnet transcend time?

Just thinking aloud here...

The weirwood itself has no consciousness of linear time. 

However, it successively absorbs the memories of A, who lived [in our terms] between say 1200 and 1280; B who lived between 1260 and 1320; C who lived between 1300 and 1370 and so on. They are memories which span the history of the world but they are also individual and unconnected memories which can be accessed but are not necessarily continuous or reliable - how accurate are your memories?

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do think GRRM has created an opening for future actions affecting the past through the weirnet, however.  We're told time is a river for humans going in only one direction, but time works differently for the trees.  So if a human's consciousness becomes part of the tree, does time start working differently for the consciousness?

A fair question. Haggon suggests that spending too much time sharing minds with a prey animal will turn a man into a coward, so what are the consequences of sharing minds with the weirwood? Will the greenseer begin to experience time non-linearly? 
 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So they truly don't become part of the weirwoods until they die.  So presumably the weirnet gains everything they knew about the world.  Now since the weirwoods don't experience time like humans do, does the knowledge gained by the weirnet transcend time?

After chewing on this in a prior post, I'm still inclined to conclude that neither the weirwood nor the greenseer are transcendent, otherwise the CotF would have never been destroyed in the first place...or hell, maybe they would, maybe having access to infinite possible futures and pasts means that it's very difficult to pinpoint and practically apply specific knowledge. 

However, I do keep going back to this passage:
 

Quote

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

This isn't really the same thing as just watching a memory, is it? Are we to infer that Bran's consciousness did indeed travel backwards in time, that he was present at that moment, that he personally effected that moment from the future (causing the rustle in the leaves), and that the only thing limiting him from interacting with Eddard are the physical limitations of being a tree? 

In practice, this is the same thing as (mostly) being unable to change the past, and we might further speculate that, just as a greenseer in his second life cannot continue to skinchange once their body dies, perhaps a greenseer cannot skinchange when their true body is located in a different time.

Nonetheless, I'm still a little worried that GRRM might be setting up a few narrow scenarios where a future Bran might still influence the past; when Bran speaks, Eddard hears nothing...but if Summer were near the weirwood when Bran was "speaking," would he hear Bran? What about Hodor? The other direwolves? 

Edit: To get more crackpot, the weirwood cannot speak with words, but can it speak in dreams and symbols? For example, are green dreams attempts at "communication," rather than arbitrary acts of prophecy?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The weirwood itself has no consciousness of linear time. 

However, it successively absorbs the memories of A, who lived [in our terms] between say 1200 and 1280; B who lived between 1260 and 1320; C who lived between 1300 and 1370 and so on.

Questions.

• Whose memories are absorbed by the weirwood?  
• How is this absorption accomplished?  What is the mechanism?
• When Bran sees his father standing before the Winterfell weirwood, praying that "they grow up as brothers," what is he seeing?  Is it somebody's memory?  Or is it simply an event that occurred before the weirwood... accessible because the weirwood itself operates like some kind of perpetual security camera?

[JNR]

51 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

This isn't really the same thing as just watching a memory, is it? Are we to infer that Bran's consciousness did indeed travel backwards in time, that he was present at that moment

I think he's experiencing a weirwood memory exactly as the weirwood experienced it... and so his third grade mind, which is not very sophisticated, interprets it as being there.  He feels as if he can't speak because the weirwood can't speak.  

But he isn't there.  He just feels that way because the memory is completely immersive, as if he personally were the weirwood.

Should he try to skinchange an animal or person he sees in the memory, I would expect that to fail completely, because of this.  He isn't really there, and that animal or person isn't really there either.   (If someone did a stage play in which Bran were able to skinchange entities perceived in weirwood memories, I would chuckle to myself at the liberties being taken.)

As for the idea that weirwoods have no sense of linear time, that's a more tricky question because of course the memories Bran experiences do seem to be linear in each individual case, meaning things happen in a normal order.  Ned speaks and his words are in a grammatical sequence, forming a standard idea about the boys growing up as brothers.  The girl stands on tiptoe, and then she kisses the knight because she's able to on tiptoe.  First the prisoner kneels, and then his throat is cut.  Etc.   This can only be because that's the way the weirwood remembers it.

So basically Bran, in exploring the memories, rewinds the tape swiftly many years... then plays it forward a few moments, which he experiences as the tree did, from the tree's POV.  Then backwards many years... then forward a few moments, seeing as the tree.  Lather, rinse, repeat.   

There are also no instances of Bran fast-forwarding the tape to the future, as we would expect him to be able to do if weirwoods really experience the future in the same way they do the present and the past.  

Of course, it might be that this is the sort of thing that requires extra skill that he currently completely lacks because he's a complete tyro at the art of weirwood research.  But something tells me Bran is never going to be able to see whatever he wants in the future, at will, because this, too, would destroy GRRM's story... because Bran would learn far too much, investigating completely obvious things like "What happens in the war against the Popsicles?" and there would be no suspense left for the reader.  At best I think he might get glimpses, not unlike Mel's flame visions or Jojen's greendreams.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Questions.

• Whose memories are absorbed by the weirwood?  
• How is this absorption accomplished?  What is the mechanism?
• When Bran sees his father standing before the Winterfell weirwood, praying that "they grow up as brothers," what is he seeing?  Is it somebody's memory?  Or is it simply an event that occurred before the weirwood... accessible because the weirwood itself operates like some kind of perpetual security camera?

Yes, who's memories?  Why does Leaf ask Bran what he has seen after he is wed to the tree?  Why does Bran go to a familiar place first? Is there something to the blood sacrifice ritual that binds Bran that tree and the memories stored there?

Sherlock's mind palace seems very much like some dreams and visions we have seen:

Quote

Holmes, after being shot point blank, delves into his palac too discover the best path to survival. Viewers see him stumbling down a winding staircase, then in a morgue-like room where he finds his friend Molly Hooper, the pathology lab assistant, looking over his own dead body. “You’re most certainly going to die, so you need to focus,” Hooper says. “It’s all well and clever having a mind palace, but you only have three seconds of consciousness left to use it.” Holmes discovers the answers to staying alive are indeed in his brain. But he goes beyond the classical mind palace technique, finding them not only by wandering through the building and locating items but also through conversations with the people he has stored there, like Hooper and his brother Mycroft.

In addition to the staircase and morgue, Holmes’ mind palace includes a long hallway with many doorways to rooms packed with memories. By searching those rooms, Holmes is able to find the memory of his childhood dog, Redbeard, which he uses to calm himself down. There’s also a padded room holding the now-deceased consulting criminal Jim Moriarty. All of these rooms don’t quite fit together, however, making it unlikely that Holmes’ memory palace is a real place.

 

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/secrets-sherlocks-mind-palace-180949567/#51Eg0xHWfhJAWgvp.99

 

      

[alienarea]

Totally unrelated to the previous discussion, my apologies.

"How many books will be necessary to get from the end of ADwD to the end of tv season 7?"

[JNR]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

How many books will be necessary to get from the end of ADwD to the end of tv season 7

I honestly believe the books are such a wildly different story at this point that the question is moot.

If I rephrase it more generically as: Would it be possible to reach a plot point by the end of TWOW such that

• Dany has obtained control over her dragons, a crucially important goal not achieved in the books

• Dany has landed in Westeros with the Unsullied and dealt with Aegon somehow

• The Wall has been attacked and fallen

• The South has been made aware of the Popsicle Invasion

• Various other plot points have been resolved, such as Jon's, Stannis', and Ramsay's fates 

...then yes, it would be possible to do it in one book.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Totally unrelated to the previous discussion, my apologies.

"How many books will be necessary to get from the end of ADwD to the end of tv season 7?"

Hopefully the books will never reach abomination of season 7 (or season 6)

[LynnS]

@wolfmaid7@ravenous readerHow about something from the nostalgia file?  Do you remember the Corn Code?  That Martin was using Mormont's Raven to foreshadow death depending on the specific use and repetition of corn?   Well that turned out to be wrong in the end, but it was fun.  LOL.

I think there is only one time when this can actually be said to be true:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion.

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

It's not long afterwards that Jon is assassinated. Corn King is a reference to Jon Barleycorn and the cycle of death and rebirth. Here's the Robert Burns poem if you are interested:

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-legend-of-john-barleycorn-2562157

What strikes me about Mormont's Raven is that is can only speak one syllable words.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"Ben Jen," the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. "Ben Jen. Ben Jen."

R

So I wonder if what the bird is really saying is 'a corn' or acorn. In which case Jon is being named the Acorn King or Oak King.  This implies the duality of the Holly and Oak Kings or the Kings of Winter and Summer.

The acorn and the oak come up a number of times in the text with Bran and Arya:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

"Riverrun." Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. "You look different now. Like a proper little girl."

"I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns."

I A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

 

Acorns and oaks come up in Bran's narrative as well.  His party practically lives on acorn paste:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

Supper was a fistful of acorns, crushed and pounded into paste, so bitter that Bran gagged as he tried to keep it down. Jojen Reed did not even make the attempt. Younger and frailer than his sister, he was growing weaker by the day.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

He ate.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?"

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.

 

The oak and the holly king are twins souls and horned lords.

http://www.mysticfamiliar.com/library/witchcraft/holly_and_oak_king.htm

In Jon's narrative there are many references to oak objects and a few oak trees:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Ghost was gone, though. Jon peeled off one black glove, put two fingers in his mouth, and whistled. "Ghost! To me."

From above came the sudden sound of wings. Mormont's raven flapped from a limb of an old oak to perch upon Jon's saddle. "Corn," it cried. "Corn, corn, corn."

 

This cracks me up a bit because it's my contention that Mormont's Raven houses the ghost of Uncle Benjen.  So when Jon whistles for Ghost to come to him; it's the Raven that shows up.  

As mentioned upthread,  this is the bird that names him the oak king or horned lord.  Gorne, another horned lord sounds like word play on corn. 

It occurs to me that the whole business of Jon Arryn and his last words "the seed is strong", actually refers to the Stark bloodline or the acorn and the oak. 

In Game of Thrones, Lysa tells Catelyn this:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."

 

In Storm of Swords, Martin modifies this somewhat:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

The thought made Sansa weary. All she knew of Robert Arryn was that he was a little boy, and sickly. It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love. But lying came easy to her now. "I . . . can scarcely wait to meet him, my lady. But he is still a child, is he not?"

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying. I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know that your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding, to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us the word from King's Landing once the Imp's head rolls. You and Robert can be wed the next day, won't that be joyous? It will be good for him to have a little companion. He played with Vardis Egen's boy when we first returned to the Eyrie, and my steward's sons as well, but they were much too rough and I had no choice but to send them away. Do you read well, Alayne?"

 

It would be easy to dismiss anything Lysa says because her mind is so unhinged; except that she is right that gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying.  This is exactly what happens to Bran when he floats between life and death.  This little revelation seems Sansa-esque; somewhat like the lightbulb going off in Ned's mind when Sansa says she wants to give Joffrey golden haired kids.

So I don't think this has so much to do with Robert's blue-eyed bastards as it does with the Stark bloodline and their seeds... the acorns, including Robert's seed, Jon. 

"The seed is strong."

A Game of Thrones - Arya II
It is time to begin growing up."
"I will," Arya vowed. She had never loved him so much as she did in that instant. "I can be strong too. I can be as strong as Robb."

A Game of Thrones - Arya III
Calm as still water, she told herself. Strong as a bear. Fierce as a wolverine. She opened her eyes again.

A Clash of Kings - Arya X
"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."
"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would."

A Storm of Swords - Arya V
 She was strong and swift and fierce, and her pack was all around her, her brothers and her sisters. They ran down a frightened horse together, tore its throat out, and feasted. And when the moon broke through the clouds, she threw back her head and howled.

A Storm of Swords - Arya X
She had to be strong now, the way her father told her.

A Feast for Crows - Arya II
"What we offer cannot be bought with gold. The cost is all of you. Men take many paths through this vale of tears and pain. Ours is the hardest. Few are made to walk it. It takes uncommon strength of body and spirit, and a heart both hard and strong."
I have a hole where my heart should be, she thought, and nowhere else to go. "I'm strong. As strong as you. I'm hard."

A Game of Thrones - Bran V
For a moment he felt strong again, and whole. He looked up at the trees and dreamed of climbing them, right up to the very top, with the whole forest spread out beneath him.

A Clash of Kings - Bran I
It was dark amongst the trees, but the comet lit his way, and his feet were sure. He was moving on four good legs, strong and swift, and he could feel the ground underfoot, the soft crackling of fallen leaves, thick roots and hard stones, the deep layers of humus. It was a good feeling.

A Clash of Kings - Bran III
"Here they come," the female said. Meera, some part of him whispered, some wisp of the sleeping boy lost in the wolf dream. "Did you know they would be so big?"

"They will be bigger still before they are grown," the young male said, watching them with eyes large, green, and unafraid. "The black one is full of fear and rage, but the grey is strong . . . stronger than he knows . . . can you feel him, sister?"

A Clash of Kings - Bran V
"The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you're awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you."

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
"Then where?" asked Osha.
"White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ." Maester Luwin reached up and grasped Bran's forearm, his fingers closing with a desperate strength. "You must be strong now. Strong."

A Storm of Swords - Bran I
Prince. The man-sound came into his head suddenly, yet he could feel the rightness of it. Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV
"Why not?"
"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it . . . old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall."

It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon. Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong. So go to sleep, my little Brandon, my baby boy. You needn't fear. There are no monsters here.

A Game of Thrones - Jon II
"Who will I practice with?"
"You'll find someone," Jon promised her. "King's Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do …"

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
Jon remained standing. "It's my father, isn't it?"
The Old Bear tapped the letter with a finger. "Your father and the king," he rumbled. "I won't lie to you, it's grievous news. I never thought to see another king, not at my age, with Robert half my years and strong as a bull."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
"Pycelle makes no mention of them, but doubtless they'll be treated gently. I will ask about them when I write." Mormont shook his head. "This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …" He gave Jon a long shrewd look. "I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII
Outside, one of the guards looked at him and said, "Be strong, boy. The gods are cruel."

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII
"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX
Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true.

A Clash of Kings - Jon I
"And his brothers?" Jon asked.
The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
Jon?
The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A Clash of Kings - Jon V
Mormont blinked. "He is hardly more than a boy. And my steward besides. Not even a ranger."
"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
"Was he a good ranger?"
"He was the best of us," said the Halfhand, "and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII
As if in answer, Ghost struggled to his feet.
"The wolf is strong," the ranger said. "Ebben, water. Stonesnake, your skin of wine. Hold him still, Jon."

A Storm of Swords - Jon II
"I might get her with child."
"Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?"

A Storm of Swords - Jon V
"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall."

"And what if they do? I'd sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t' some weakling by my father."

A Storm of Swords - Jon V
"You say that, but how can you know? What if you were stolen by someone you hated?"
"He'd have t' be quick and cunning and brave t' steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?"

A Storm of Swords - Jon X
"You can kill your enemies," Jon said bluntly, "but can you rule your friends? If we let your people pass, are you strong enough to make them keep the king's peace and obey the laws?

 

[Black Crow]

21 hours ago, JNR said:

I honestly believe the books are such a wildly different story at this point that the question is moot.

If I rephrase it more generically as: Would it be possible to reach a plot point by the end of TWOW such that

• Dany has obtained control over her dragons, a crucially important goal not achieved in the books

• Dany has landed in Westeros with the Unsullied and dealt with Aegon somehow

• The Wall has been attacked and fallen

• The South has been made aware of the Popsicle Invasion

• Various other plot points have been resolved, such as Jon's, Stannis', and Ramsay's fates 

...then yes, it would be possible to do it in one book.

I agree, while I haven't watched this season the synopsis clearly indicates that it was nothing more than a badly written exercise in fan-fiction of the worst kind, GRRM's own work is about the human condition and yes, the heart of darkness. This lot lacked both substance and subtlety and rushed it. The Wall fell... and oh dear here come the blue-eyed lot. Given the centrality of the Wall I would venture to suggest that in reality its fall will not be episodic but climactic and it will be the fall of the Wall which will allow our characters to dream of spring.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that it is impossible now to compare the book with the mummer's version or seek any kind of parity because they are entirely different. In that regard the prohibition on discussing the mummers version is also moot in that they are no longer two different versions or the same story.

[Faint]

22 hours ago, JNR said:

I honestly believe the books are such a wildly different story at this point that the question is moot.

If I rephrase it more generically as: Would it be possible to reach a plot point by the end of TWOW such that

• Dany has obtained control over her dragons, a crucially important goal not achieved in the books

• Dany has landed in Westeros with the Unsullied and dealt with Aegon somehow

• The Wall has been attacked and fallen

• The South has been made aware of the Popsicle Invasion

• Various other plot points have been resolved, such as Jon's, Stannis', and Ramsay's fates 

...then yes, it would be possible to do it in one book.

I think you are making a false equivalency between this past season and The Winds of Winter, whereas really Season 7 and 8 are supposed track with A Dream of Spring. 

Spoiler

 

Also, taking your points one by one:

1. Daenerys does not have control of all her dragons. She has control of one dragon.
2. Aegon has obviously been written out of the show, signaling his relative importance in the grand scheme of things, but his army is not set to arrive until the next season of the show
3. I can definitely envision the Wall falling at the end The Winds of Winter, as I have long expected, although I expect the method to be much different than on the show. 
4. I really question whether the southern part of Westeros will know about the Others in Martin's books until Daenerys and Jon are forced to retreat to the Trident, which I doubt will happen before the final book in the series. 
5. These plot points, excepting Stannis, should be resolved in the first half of the next book. 

 

 

Nevertheless, I do not think any of these factors will play a role in determining whether Martin will be able to finish the series in two books or more. All of it really comes down to whether he is able to revert to the concise form of writing he exhibited in the first two books of the series before the bloat set in. If he cannot do that, he might need four books to finish. 

Personally, I am not hopeful. Especially since he is already gone on about needing to show how . . . 

Spoiler

Aegon took Storm's End. This is exactly the type of thing that he avoided earlier in the series. We do not need to see that. At best, we can get the story from a one paragraph flashback in a Jon Connington POV. This is the kind of decision which has derailed his writing process for the past 17 years. 

Finally, all these refrains about the show no longer being the same story told two ways, or no longer having the same conclusion, are refuted by Martin himself. Not to mention the first hand accounts of Martin revealing plot points about the current season to the crew (i.e., Jon and Daenerys). 

I agree that the quality of the show's writing is absolutely terrible but let's not start lying to ourselves just so we can feel better about the reality that Martin has let his story be spoiled by a C grade adaption. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Faint said:

Finally, all these refrains about the show no longer being the same story told two ways, or no longer having the same conclusion, are refuted by Martin himself. Not to mention the first hand accounts of Martin revealing plot points about the current season to the crew (i.e., Jon and Daenerys)

Where can I read about these first hand accounts?

[Matthew.]

On 9/5/2017 at 5:17 PM, alienarea said:

Totally unrelated to the previous discussion, my apologies.

"How many books will be necessary to get from the end of ADwD to the end of tv season 7?"

If the real question here is "will GRRM finish in seven books," I'm feeling less confident by the day that such a thing is possible.

For one thing, there's established precedent: just read old SSMs to see that every book except for ASOS was published under the circumstances of GRRM writing more than can be physically bound in a hardcover, being nowhere near his intended plot goals, and Anne Groell encouraging him to publish a portion of what has been written and shifting the rest to a future volume.

Furthermore, I'm troubled by certain things GRRM has said; there's an interview where GRRM says that Dany and Tyrion's stories will not intersect until late in TWOW...so what does this suggest about the time table for her invasion plot, for her interactions with Aegon VI, and so forth? 

Another warning sign is that Martin believes he "solved" the Meereenese knot by adding Barristan POV chapters in ADWD. Martin's solution puts a spotlight on the underlying problem: the POV structure of storytelling, which has become a serious constraint on Martin's ability to tell a well paced story.

In a typical novel, you might jump between Winterfell chapters, Meereen chapters, King's Landing chapters, Wall chapters, each composed of a shifting set of major and minor POVs. To use Meereen as an example, you might have a Meereenese chapter after Dany departs that focuses on Tyrion's machinations among the Yunkish, with interludes from Barristan in the great pyramid, and perhaps a very minor Meereenese character who releases Viserion and Rhaegal to aide Dany (as opposed to spending several chapters on Quentyn).

Within Martin's structure, to convey the same information, you have four (originally unplanned!) Barristan chapters, and because Martin doesn't want to seem as though he's taking shortcuts, he attempts to give Barristan an arc of his own, and explore his regrets (Ashara Dayne), and just generally adds a bunch of bloat, all so that he can have "eyes" inside of the great pyramid to convey the necessary plot information.  And that's just Barristan, as there are also the Tyrion, Quentyn, and Victarion chapters.

I don't care to do a page count of how many Meereen chapters there are in ADWD after Dany flies off on Drogon, but what I do know is that it's way too fucking many for how incrementally the plot is moved forward over the course of those chapters.

[Matthew.]

On 9/1/2017 at 8:27 PM, JNR said:

I think he's experiencing a weirwood memory exactly as the weirwood experienced it... and so his third grade mind, which is not very sophisticated, interprets it as being there.  He feels as if he can't speak because the weirwood can't speak.  

Perhaps, but there's also the ambiguity of Eddard reacting within the vision, as though he has truly heard something. This could just be coincidental timing, but it puts me in mind of this moment: 

 

Quote

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name.

When the leaves rustled in the vision of Eddard, do you suppose he might have thought he heard "father" whispered in the wind, in the leaves?

Again, perhaps not, but I think there's enough within the story (eg, the moment in ACOK where Jon has a vision of greenseer Bran) that I understand why many readers believe that Bran might interact with the past. That many of these moments can individually be explained away does not necessarily mean that the "explaining away" interpretation is correct.

 

On 9/1/2017 at 8:27 PM, JNR said:

As for the idea that weirwoods have no sense of linear time, that's a more tricky question because of course the memories Bran experiences do seem to be linear in each individual case, meaning things happen in a normal order.  Ned speaks and his words are in a grammatical sequence, forming a standard idea about the boys growing up as brothers.  The girl stands on tiptoe, and then she kisses the knight because she's able to on tiptoe.  First the prisoner kneels, and then his throat is cut.  Etc.   This can only be because that's the way the weirwood remembers it.

I take this as more of an indictment of GRRM as a writer than an indication of how the weirwood perceives the world. To quote:

Bran IV, ACOK
 

Quote

"With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

Bran III, ADWD
 

Quote

Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak."

That Martin has failed to convey the strangeness of perceiving the world as a weirwood reflects either an inability to convey that in his prose, or a choice to make his prose bland for the sake of reader comprehension, to make the work more approachable. I would say this is a general problem with the series, where POVs, skinchanger thoughts, and weirwood thoughts are not made distinct from one another in prose--they are only distinguished in literal plot content.