Rickard of House Rakkoon

Where is the love?

240 posts in this topic

Dont get me wrong by the following, I love this series and hope for 40 more years of planetos stories. With that said, i ask the following.

Throughout the series we see a wide range of emotions, anger, sadness, lust, rage, relief, envy, hate, revoltion, ect. What we dont really see is real love. Yes, there are some that love eachother dutifully or out of lust, ned/cat and jamie/cersei, jon/ygrette, but the only real love we ever really know about (vaguely) is Tyrion and his 1st wife, and all know how that went. Then Dany/kahl Drogo, but that was the raping of a 13-14 year old girl by a grown man til she got Stockholm syndrome and "loved" him back... Maybe jorah loves dany, but thats unrequited, as is the littlefinger sansa ordeal. No matter which way it turns, grrm always makes love end in tragedy and death. Has there ever been more then just a blink of joy before a warhammer smashes it?  Question i have is why cant there be at least one shred of happiness/real love in planetos? Does it all have to end in death, rape, plotting and war?  Unless i missed something... Sam and Gilly, maybe thats the one shred.

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To misquote a famous writer - all families are happy in the same way, and all families are tragic in their unique way.

For the very same reason you do not see "couple happily married for 40 years" but "wife knifed husband; dies of poison slipped into her lemoncake by the husband before the stabbing 2 hours later" on the news. 

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People tend to hyper-focus and obsess over love. Hence the ship craze. It usually comes at expense of more complicated themes and emotions. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. They're not at all. But that's how it usually works out.

I think GRRM is using the character POV format because he's using various characters to explore various aspects of the human condition on a broad scale.

Since love usually dominates so overwhelmingly, it tends to simplify other influencers in turn. With big romantic love, a character's choices are going to pretty much be laid out and will probably follow a fairly predictable path and will dominate other things which influence a person like culture, history, family relationship in general, relationship with specific family members, religion, past experiences, superstition, other myriad personality traits.

And I'm not sure where you can really take big romantic love in the long run when there's a ice zombie apocalypse, wide-spread famine, wars, dragon wars, and Dothraki raids going on.

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Posted (edited)

I think the Stark kids all love each other very much, which I know is not romantic love obviously but still deep and true. Also, Ned and Cat started as duty, but I believe they really loved each other ("Ned loved my hair" makes me cry very time).

Loras deeply loved Renly. Jeyne Westerling's love for Robb and her defiance in the face of her family and the Lannisters is incredibly moving, imo. Ellaria and Oberyn is also one of the great relationships in the series, and I love how she loves him deeply but still wants to break the cycle of vengeance. Jaime and Brienne's feelings for each other can be debated, but is to me one of the most important relationships in the books because of how they develop and how they change both characters.

I dunno, I think there is a lot of love throughout ASOIAF. Of all sorts, and mostly sad in some way, but no less true or moving.

Edited by Eurybia

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All good points. I guess i wound up over looking some of those. Especially jaime and brienne, seeing as where they came from til now. Stark kids i guess, but that kinda seems more like, yeah their my family and i love them, but thats different then a husband/wife kinda love i.e. ned/cat reagar/lyanna or rob/jeyne type love. And yes, ice zombie apocalypse, wars of power, starvation, the long winter being here... but what does fighting and surviving all that mean if there is no one you love that your protecting or sacrificing for? Wait, i just had an epiphany... The major base of whats going on and why is love. Raegar fighting Robert, Ned sacrificing his honor for family, Cats retribution as LS, Jaimes love for Brienne to show her hes a honorable worthy man, oddly Cercei's love of her kids/self, Jons loves of his family, jorahs love for dany, Renly and Loras, hell even Tywins love for his wife/children/dynasty and oberyn love of his family and Ellaria, Tyrion and Tyena... Ok looks like im going to have to reread the series again, ive missed how interwoven things are. 

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What a great idea, above. I think we're told that love is the death to honour. We have seen this. Maybe we'll see the power of love also. The rule of the Boltons is likely to be overturned by the northern lords and their obsessive love for the Starks of Winterfell. The Stark children have grown apart, but the pack must re-unite to survive winter - only love can do that. There must be more.

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17 minutes ago, Rickard of House Rakkoon said:

All good points. I guess i wound up over looking some of those. Especially jaime and brienne, seeing as where they came from til now. Stark kids i guess, but that kinda seems more like, yeah their my family and i love them, but thats different then a husband/wife kinda love i.e. ned/cat reagar/lyanna or rob/jeyne type love. And yes, ice zombie apocalypse, wars of power, starvation, the long winter being here... but what does fighting and surviving all that mean if there is no one you love that your protecting or sacrificing for? Wait, i just had an epiphany... The major base of whats going on and why is love. Raegar fighting Robert, Ned sacrificing his honor for family, Cats retribution as LS, Jaimes love for Brienne to show her hes a honorable worthy man, oddly Cercei's love of her kids/self, Jons loves of his family, jorahs love for dany, Renly and Loras, hell even Tywins love for his wife/children/dynasty and oberyn love of his family and Ellaria, Tyrion and Tyena... Ok looks like im going to have to reread the series again, ive missed how interwoven things are. 

Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna, he forcibly abducted and raped her.

And we certainly do get examples of love or at least positive emotional intimacy.  Jon and Ygritte.  Renly and Loras.  I forget who they were, but there is a throwaway line about a pregnant young woman and her husband ata wedding feast (Joffrey's, I think).

But you are also mistaking Tywin, who doesn't love his family, and Jorah doesn't love Dany.  Just saying it's "love" doesn't make it so, and those characters ave some pretty fucked up emotional things going on that aren't love.  Jorah's gaslighting is more creepy obsession than love.  Tywin's domineering nature is not love of family but love of self as reflected by family.

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37 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Rhaegar didn't love Lyanna, he forcibly abducted and raped her.

Well, that's what Robert said. But consider his bias. It would have been too much like an admission of inadequacy for him to even consider that Lyanna had eloped with Rhaegar to avoid having to marry him. Hey, all the other (mainly lowborn) girls LOVED Robert, Lord of the Stormlands and later King of Westeros - at least for the one night he enjoyed them.

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17 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, that's what Robert said. But consider his bias. It would have been too much like an admission of inadequacy for him to even consider that Lyanna had eloped with Rhaegar to avoid having to marry him. Hey, all the other (mainly lowborn) girls LOVED Robert, Lord of the Stormlands and later King of Westeros - at least for the one night he enjoyed them.

No, that's what the very strong implication is.  Lyanna is riding through the Riverlands on her way home when a party of armed men show up and demand she come with them.  Whether or not she "willingly" goes with them is entirely moot - any decision made at swordpoint cannot be termed a consenting decision.  And she is then kept under armed guard at the Tower of Joy for at least nine months.

Rhaegar hadn't met or spoken to Lyanna in his life before Harrenhal.  He's working to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, which he believes to involve a Stark/Targaryen child.  It's ridiculous to think he "fell in love with her" or visa versa.

Robert obviously takes this to an extreme, but it's extraordinarily difficult to escape the conclusion that force or the threat of force was involved in separating Lyanna from her family, taking her as far away from them as he could, impregnating her, and forcing her to stay at the Tower of Joy, under armed guard, for the duration of the war.

I mean, if she wasn't a prisoner, why isn't she being kept in Kings Landing, or any other place where Rhaegar should be?  Because he needs her isolated from her entire social support system, in a secret place, from which she cannot escape and has no allies to succor her.  Her forcible abduction is the only reason for her to be in the Dornish marches for as long as she is.

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On 7/19/2017 at 0:29 AM, Rickard of House Rakkoon said:

Question i have is why cant there be at least one shred of happiness/real love in planetos?

I think there is and the story isn't over yet.  Let's not confuse some problematic aspects to relationships as necessarily invalidating "real love."  Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.  Real romantic type love doesn't mean a constant state of happiness or passion.  The more exciting aspects of love tend to level out over time and get replaced by deep abiding connection and intimacy.  And there can still be issues with a relationship even when such a connection exists.  I do consider Ned and Cat to have developed the latter kind of love, even though their marriage was arranged and it took time.  What makes their marriage really strong is that the passionate side seemed to come after they came to love each other.  We see in AGOT they have a pretty mutually satisfying sex life.  Of course, they have their issues and insecurities and bad things happened to them, but that had no bearing on their love for each other.  George wasn't shitting on real love for the sake of it.  Loss happens no matter what.  I think this was actually a pretty good depiction of a realistic solid and loving marriage that actually did weather all the problems and obstacles.  They died.  They didn't stop loving each other.

I think he describes all manner of relationship aspects under the umbrella of "love."  Some are just flat out unhealthy or unbalanced.  Some are strong in passion, but won't have the necessary components for a long haul.  Some types have glaring issues, but they actually have the right stuff to potentially overcome those issues.  With some it's born out of friendship or even adversarial circumstances and it creeps in unnoticed.  He also describes how first juvenile brushes with romantic feelings can be thrilling, but also blinding because they can be mistaken for "real love."  I think George is great at writing so much variety under this umbrella because it's really reflective of real life struggles with it and how it affects other aspects of our lives.  And we don't even face the same obstacles in a feudal system where it's mostly going to be class that separates people.  I think this tends to get downplayed so much as "shipping," but that desire for love and passion is a very strong drive (for good or bad) in most humans, both men and women.  Even when it happens unexpectedly to a character, it can't help but color their thoughts and actions at times.  I like how George also gives us so much variety of attractions between characters and none of them have a thing to do with what the prevailing culture says is ideal.  People just like what they like and they make connections with other human beings under all manner of circumstances.  I do believe George is a romantic at heart, but he's against typical fantasy genre, Disney-esque depictions of idealized love overcoming everything.  He's got a long marriage and life experience to draw upon.  He doesn't totally shit on the idealized moments either, he just makes them rare, hard-earned, and grounded in the fact that loss happens no matter what.     

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Stark kids and their wolves

Historically hard to better Jonquill & Florian, plenty of Targs have had true love.

Problem is not many people have the opportunity to fall in love and marry, often people are betrothed for political reasons sometimes before they even come of age.

Would 'Arya' and Ramsey hook up together under normal circumstances?

Lysa and Jon, Lancel and Amerei, Tyrek and Eemesande, Stannis and Selyse?

At some point somebody will get lucky Roose seems happy with his Frey bride but is he capable of putting love above all else probably not.

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There is a lot of love in the book series, both the main ones and the additional texts. I think the mistake a lot of people make is thinking love is only what they think it is. I see this a lot.  So often in fact that I sigh and roll my eyes. Love is not a clean, neat, sanitary emotion. It doesn't only happen between two people who you deem socially and culturally compatible. Sometimes people fall in love with wholly inappropriate people.  And sometimes love is toxic, dangerous, and destructive. It is no less real an emotion though. 

Jaime fell in love with his sister Cersei, she is a vain, selfish, cruel, and deceitful woman. She uses him, and doesn't love him in the same way he loves her. her love for him is grounded in self-love. Their relationship is extremely problematic, not only in terms of the chaos it brings to the realm but also in the abusive nature of her use of him. And the fact they created three children who are through no fault of their own the product of first-degree incest. 

We follow them from long standing if flawed relationship through to Jaime slowly but surely falling out of love with Cersei, her betrayal devastates him, as he has kept true to her his whole life, never having had sex with another person. And whilst he obviously knew she had a sexual relationship with Robert he also presumably knew she did not enjoy that relationship and he definitely knew she had no choice but to consent to it on occasion. 

Interestingly we also follow him into the process of falling in love with Brienne. Which is interesting in itself too. We see multiple emergent relationships in the series some grow and peak and die all played out for us the reader. Jon & Ygritte is a good example.  

We also see unrequited love, and see how this kind of love often results in a profound lack of respect for the feelings of the object of that unwelcome affection. Joarah steps all over Dany's personal boundaries and makes many unpleasant moves in the throes of his emotion for her. But when love goes unreturned that person still feels the emotion. 

Who are we to decide who feels love. Love is a feeling each of us experiences it differently by the very nature of what a feeling is. It is personal.  It is caused by chemicals and hormones. Its drivers are reproduction, security, and companionship. One of those Neurohormones is Dopamine, which causes an almost obsessiveness. And explains the horrid disregard for the other person's feelings in unrequited love. We almost can't help but ignore being rejected. This is why younger people struggle so much with backing the fuck off. Or jerks, who are not self-aware and are selfish and feel they deserve the other persons affections more than the person deserves autonomy. And it explains why when love is joyfully mutual we feel the desire to be with our lover so frequently. Why we think about them all the time and relate everything to them. Another one is Oxytocin and that one makes us bond. Which is what keeps us together after all that dopamine has worn off. It is the deep lasting warm feeling, the can't imagine my life without you one. We release it through skin to skin contact and it is pumped out in huge quantities during birth, and breastfeeding, and orgasm. 

Several years ago now several of us began a thread on the re-read forum called Rethinking Romance. And there is a rethinking Romance II they are both easily googleable. They explored the various relationships in series at great depth, you may enjoy reading them. They fizzled out but I do wish they'd continued as some of the less obvious relationships would have been interesting to explore too. 

I have a theory as to why people seem to seek to dismiss any form of love which does not conform to their safe ideal of a healthy relationship. I think it likely stems from a desire to diminish previous relationships and feelings in favour of idealising the mature, stable, monogamous relationship we as a society place on a pedestal.  If you've been in a messy or abusive relationship previously you may wish to seek solace in telling yourself it was not really love. But people in unhealthy relationships can love each other passionately. We just have to learn to accept that that person is bad for us and find the strength to walk away. Or eventually, maybe we fall out of love because they've hurt us so much.  Or when you find the long term satisfying healthy love relationship you might want to differentiate this one from your previous relationships and so you call this real love, true love and say those others they weren't really love at all. And that is all fine so long as you don't then seek to define love for other people.  Because it is wrong to do that. We're no better than a homophobe telling two women or two men they can't really love each other because love is between one man and one woman. Or telling people in perfectly happy polyamorous they can't really love each other because you believe in monogamy. 

Love is often Ugly, it is often socially unacceptable, it is often unhealthy, it is often the opposite of these things too. I think it is clear GRRM wants to explore all of the above because he has included every type of relationship imaginable. From the toxic Jaime and Cersei through Tywin and Joanna who it seems he loved deeply but never the less cheated on so frequently he had a secret tunnel built to a brothel. To Cat and Ned an arranged marriage out of which grew a healthy, stable, and equal marriage. To Renly and Loras whom the latter loved so passionately he gave us the famous no candle line. And the tentative sweet and then triumphant love between Gilly and Sam. 

 

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No, that's what the very strong implication is.  Lyanna is riding through the Riverlands on her way home when a party of armed men show up and demand she come with them.  Whether or not she "willingly" goes with them is entirely moot - any decision made at swordpoint cannot be termed a consenting decision.  And she is then kept under armed guard at the Tower of Joy for at least nine months.

Rhaegar hadn't met or spoken to Lyanna in his life before Harrenhal.  He's working to fulfill the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised, which he believes to involve a Stark/Targaryen child.  It's ridiculous to think he "fell in love with her" or visa versa.

Robert obviously takes this to an extreme, but it's extraordinarily difficult to escape the conclusion that force or the threat of force was involved in separating Lyanna from her family, taking her as far away from them as he could, impregnating her, and forcing her to stay at the Tower of Joy, under armed guard, for the duration of the war.

I mean, if she wasn't a prisoner, why isn't she being kept in Kings Landing, or any other place where Rhaegar should be?  Because he needs her isolated from her entire social support system, in a secret place, from which she cannot escape and has no allies to succor her.  Her forcible abduction is the only reason for her to be in the Dornish marches for as long as she is.

I don't wish to derail this thread. So if you want to start another to discuss Rhaegar and Lyanna specifically feel free and I'll C&P this reply over.

Here you have made some basic assumptions but missed the more subtle clues in the text.

Lyanna crying at Rhaegars song,

The fact he was sent to find the KoTLT giving the opportunity for a meeting away from the eyes of the crowds.

The willful nature of Lyanna. 

The fact Rhaegar had previously been an entirely dutiful man, not the kind to do such an extreme thing as kidnap a woman so something significant must have caused this deviation from his dutiful nature. 

He himself though dutiful must have had an emotional side as he was a musician and cold people are rarely capable of great art and he must have been good because *see point re: Lyanna crying. 

No one at any point thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist barring Robert. Whose opinion is biased.

Even Ned in his own private thoughts does not hold any anger for the Prince, who supposedly kidnapped and raped his sister. Especially Ned who has every reason to hate Rhaegar if he did kidnap her.

Ned does not think him the type of man to visit brothels, suggesting he was not a womaniser. Nor a sexual predator. 

Barristan tells us Rhaegar loved "his"  Lady Lyanna. Which suggests she was his woman. usually, that implies mutual affection between a couple. Or even, in this setting ownership; as in spouse of. 

Dany thinks that if Daario whom she has a mutually affectionate passionate sexual relationship with, truly loved her he would come and carry her off at sword point on the way to her unwanted marriage to Hizdahr who she is marrying only out of duty. As Rhaegar had done his Northern girl. Which rather implies that Dany has been told a version of the events which paints the abduction as an elopement. Now she has heard the tail from Viserys, who can only have heard it from his mother. As who else would Rhaegar have told his version of events too when he returned to KL? Again note, she is HIS northern girl. 

Jorah tells us Rhaegar thought honourably, nobly etc. errrr a rapist noble? Honorable? really? 

Lyanna died clutching dead rose petals of the reader must presume her favourite and repeated motif - blue roses, the same as Rhaegar gave her a crown of. Oh! And how did Rhaegar know what Lyanna's favourite flowers were? presumably, to have had the crown he must have at some point during the tourney asked her what her favourite flowers were and sent someone to source him some.

 I know how I'd take it if a bloke asked me what my favourite flowers were and then presented me with a crown of them after winning a competition where he gets to name a woman queen of love and beauty.  

Hey up, I'm in there! 

 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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There's plenty of love in the books, but it's realistic. In real life, people love each other, but it doesn't stop the Earth turning. Responsibilities remain and things keep happening. Those that ignore that reality and let love turn their world upside down tend to get into trouble, and that's what happens in ASOIAF too. Ned and Catelyn love each other, but don't let it stop them fulfilling their responsibilities. Catelyn loves Bran, but that leads to her neglecting Rickon, then causing a lot of trouble for everyone by abducting Tyrion. Robb and Jeyne Westerling love each other, but Robb does let it get in the way of his responsibilities and he pays a heavy price for it. Jorah loves Daenerys, but it's complicated by his desire to return home and his fear of admitting he has been playing both sides. Jaime loves Cersei and would do almost anything for her, but his love is based on an unrealistic image of her and is eroded as he begins to see things (arguably) more clearly. Robert Baratheon loves Lyanna and lives his adult life feeling unfulfilled until his death, which itself is partly caused by his obsession with her. Tyrion loved Tysha and thought that was more important than who he was and who she was, but his unrealistic thinking led to years of simmering pain that boiled over into murder once his love for Shae was thrown into the mix.

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17 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think there is and the story isn't over yet.  Let's not confuse some problematic aspects to relationships as necessarily invalidating "real love."  Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.  Real romantic type love doesn't mean a constant state of happiness or passion.  The more exciting aspects of love tend to level out over time and get replaced by deep abiding connection and intimacy.  And there can still be issues with a relationship even when such a connection exists.  I do consider Ned and Cat to have developed the latter kind of love, even though their marriage was arranged and it took time.  What makes their marriage really strong is that the passionate side seemed to come after they came to love each other.  We see in AGOT they have a pretty mutually satisfying sex life.  Of course, they have their issues and insecurities and bad things happened to them, but that had no bearing on their love for each other.  George wasn't shitting on real love for the sake of it.  Loss happens no matter what.  I think this was actually a pretty good depiction of a realistic solid and loving marriage that actually did weather all the problems and obstacles.  They died.  They didn't stop loving each other.

I think he describes all manner of relationship aspects under the umbrella of "love."  Some are just flat out unhealthy or unbalanced.  Some are strong in passion, but won't have the necessary components for a long haul.  Some types have glaring issues, but they actually have the right stuff to potentially overcome those issues.  With some it's born out of friendship or even adversarial circumstances and it creeps in unnoticed.  He also describes how first juvenile brushes with romantic feelings can be thrilling, but also blinding because they can be mistaken for "real love."  I think George is great at writing so much variety under this umbrella because it's really reflective of real life struggles with it and how it affects other aspects of our lives.  And we don't even face the same obstacles in a feudal system where it's mostly going to be class that separates people.  I think this tends to get downplayed so much as "shipping," but that desire for love and passion is a very strong drive (for good or bad) in most humans, both men and women.  Even when it happens unexpectedly to a character, it can't help but color their thoughts and actions at times.  I like how George also gives us so much variety of attractions between characters and none of them have a thing to do with what the prevailing culture says is ideal.  People just like what they like and they make connections with other human beings under all manner of circumstances.  I do believe George is a romantic at heart, but he's against typical fantasy genre, Disney-esque depictions of idealized love overcoming everything.  He's got a long marriage and life experience to draw upon.  He doesn't totally shit on the idealized moments either, he just makes them rare, hard-earned, and grounded in the fact that loss happens no matter what.     

This. Absolutely. :agree:

Love is one of the great topics in this series, but it doesn't make the story a fairy tale. Most of all, love is not separated from the rest of life, it is part of life and it "interacts" with every other aspect of life. Cat and Ned. Jon and Ygritte. Robb and Jeyne. Duty and love, duty versus love. There are countless other examples, of course, many different "love stories", and each of them is unique. 

 

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4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The fact Rhaegar had previously been an entirely dutiful man, not the kind to do such an extreme thing as kidnap a woman so something significant must have caused this deviation from his dutiful nature. 

He is still being dutiful.  From the day he turns from being bookish into a dedicated warrior, his life is dedicated to the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised.  He thinks this means fulfilling the pact of ice and fire, which means having a kid who has Stark and Targaryen blood.  He thinks he's saving the world, and that means any means justify his end.  In fact, he doesn't even see fit to explain himself to anyone that we know of.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He himself though dutiful must have had an emotional side as he was a musician and cold people are rarely capable of great art and he must have been good because *see point re: Lyanna crying. 

This seems like a bit of an umbrella statement.  We know Rhaegar had an emotional side - he was melancholy, which while a good quality to stir the heartstrings of an audience, isn't exactly the emotional profile of a man who gets swept off his feet after one glance at a woman.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ned does not think him the type of man to visit brothels, suggesting he was not a womaniser. Nor a sexual predator. 

What does this have to do with anything?  Going to brothels doesn't mean being a womaniser OR a sexual predator.  Tywin was not a womanizer, though he visited brothels (though he is a sexual predator).  Tyrion loves whores, but is neither a womanizer nor a sexual predator.  Theon is a womanizer who visits brothels.  The action has positive correlation with the two descriptors.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Barristan tells us Rhaegar loved "his"  Lady Lyanna. Which suggests she was his woman. usually, that implies mutual affection between a couple. Or even, in this setting ownership; as in spouse of. 

Barristan has no idea what Rhaegar feels.  Barristan Selmy is an incredibly biased source, because his entire self-perception revolves around the idea that Rhaegar was a perfect prince.  He feels soiled for having served and abetted Aerys' madness, and his only redeeming grace is if in keeping Aerys on the throne, he could have allowed Rhaegar to come to power eventually and mend the realm.  To admit to himself that Rhaegar was as responsible for the death and destruction of Robert's Rebellion and the aftermath as Aerys would mean that Barristan himself is complicit, and he's too bound up in his personal sense of honor to do that.  Hence why he looks to Dany as a savior.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Dany thinks that if Daario whom she has a mutually affectionate passionate sexual relationship with, truly loved her he would come and carry her off at sword point on the way to her unwanted marriage to Hizdahr who she is marrying only out of duty. As Rhaegar had done his Northern girl. Which rather implies that Dany has been told a version of the events which paints the abduction as an elopement. Now she has heard the tail from Viserys, who can only have heard it from his mother. As who else would Rhaegar have told his version of events too when he returned to KL? Again note, she is HIS northern girl. 

First off, Dany and Daario have a longstanding, pre-existing, intimate relationship when she thinks that.  Rhaegar and Lyanna have never even spoken, for all we know.  And obviously Dany is going to be told a benign version of the story - Viserys also neglects to mention Aerys' madness, or the fact that Rhaegar sparked a totally justified civil war.  Dany's prejudices about all the participants in Robert's Rebellion (she basically has the opposite view of the truth on everyone) makes it more likely, not less, that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jorah tells us Rhaegar thought honourably, nobly etc. errrr a rapist noble? Honorable? really? 

Again, Rhaegar is looking for the Prince that was Promised.  He thinks he's saving the world.  And if you're saving the world, any action is justified by the ends sought.  Look at Stannis, who is the most righteous and just man we meet in the series - he's almost certainly going to sacrifice the daughter he loves to save humanity (in vain, but still).  Is it any less murderous that he does it with the best of intentions?

And also... Jorah is also a biased source.  He's looking to get into Dany's bed, so he's telling her what she wants to hear.  And even despite that, he's almost certainly never met Rhaegar in his life; he's going off hearsay.

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Lyanna died clutching dead rose petals of the reader must presume her favourite and repeated motif - blue roses, the same as Rhaegar gave her a crown of. Oh! And how did Rhaegar know what Lyanna's favourite flowers were? presumably, to have had the crown he must have at some point during the tourney asked her what her favourite flowers were and sent someone to source him some.

Or seen her wearing them.  Or asked anyone in the Stark household.  Or asked someone in his retinue to ask.  Literally dozens of ways for him to find out without ever seeing or talking to Lyanna.

 

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 I know how I'd take it if a bloke asked me what my favourite flowers were and then presented me with a crown of them after winning a competition where he gets to name a woman queen of love and beauty.

Right, and him naming her was an almost inconceivably massive social faux pas bordering on an insult.  Maybe, maybe he's spoken to her once or twice.  But there is no chance he's getting a word in edgewise after that, so it can't be that they arranged to run off together.

Look, speculation about emotions aside, this is what we know.

Lyanna was on her way home to Winterfell when Rhaegar accosted her on the road.  Whether or not they agreed to elope (and seriously... Rhaegar is already married and the second most important political figure in the realm, how the hell is that going to work out?), all we know is Lyanna gets pregnant, and is kept under armed guard at the Tower of Joy as a prisoner.  It isn't hard to work back from that.  The very fact she's imprisoned means she isn't a willing participant in all this.  And if she's not a prisoner, why in the world is she choosing to give birth at an isolated tower with no real medical support as far from her home and family as humanly possible?

You can hypothesize about their possibly speaking a couple times at Harrenhal (and really, a couple songs and a conversation are the basis for a passionate affair that they both know will lead to a war?), but at the end of the day, it's speculation.  All we know is the end result; Lyanna is both pregnant and a prisoner.  The latter implies that the former is as involuntary as her forced residence at the Tower of Joy.

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The love is there but it has just been building so far. If you look at the character development then you will see that in the next two books these people will come together. 

Arya and Tyrion. Both faceless, Arya about to train with the Black Pearl, both want dragons, both are going to be in Braavos, Arya is the physical looks like Tyrion likes, and Arya has lived a hard life and can respect someone like Tyrion now. I think Tyrion will find Arya in one of the brothels when he searches for where do whores go. 

Daenerys and Jon, because it is obvious that their stories are the same for a reason. I get that Jon may die in the end but I think they will fall in love first and he will give Daenerys a baby. Jorah is a creep and will die soon anyway.

I guess I do think Jaime and Brienne are in the working stage of a love relationship. Cersei loves herself ^_^. Doesn't Bran say something about loving Meera Reed? 

I guess really it will come together in the next book. These book are not all about hate and violence. 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

He is still being dutiful.  From the day he turns from being bookish into a dedicated warrior, his life is dedicated to the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised.  He thinks this means fulfilling the pact of ice and fire, which means having a kid who has Stark and Targaryen blood.  He thinks he's saving the world, and that means any means justify his end.  In fact, he doesn't even see fit to explain himself to anyone that we know of.

This seems like a bit of an umbrella statement.  We know Rhaegar had an emotional side - he was melancholy, which while a good quality to stir the heartstrings of an audience, isn't exactly the emotional profile of a man who gets swept off his feet after one glance at a woman.

What does this have to do with anything?  Going to brothels doesn't mean being a womaniser OR a sexual predator.  Tywin was not a womanizer, though he visited brothels (though he is a sexual predator).  Tyrion loves whores, but is neither a womanizer nor a sexual predator.  Theon is a womanizer who visits brothels.  The action has positive correlation with the two descriptors.

Barristan has no idea what Rhaegar feels.  Barristan Selmy is an incredibly biased source, because his entire self-perception revolves around the idea that Rhaegar was a perfect prince.  He feels soiled for having served and abetted Aerys' madness, and his only redeeming grace is if in keeping Aerys on the throne, he could have allowed Rhaegar to come to power eventually and mend the realm.  To admit to himself that Rhaegar was as responsible for the death and destruction of Robert's Rebellion and the aftermath as Aerys would mean that Barristan himself is complicit, and he's too bound up in his personal sense of honor to do that.  Hence why he looks to Dany as a savior.

First off, Dany and Daario have a longstanding, pre-existing, intimate relationship when she thinks that.  Rhaegar and Lyanna have never even spoken, for all we know.  And obviously Dany is going to be told a benign version of the story - Viserys also neglects to mention Aerys' madness, or the fact that Rhaegar sparked a totally justified civil war.  Dany's prejudices about all the participants in Robert's Rebellion (she basically has the opposite view of the truth on everyone) makes it more likely, not less, that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

Again, Rhaegar is looking for the Prince that was Promised.  He thinks he's saving the world.  And if you're saving the world, any action is justified by the ends sought.  Look at Stannis, who is the most righteous and just man we meet in the series - he's almost certainly going to sacrifice the daughter he loves to save humanity (in vain, but still).  Is it any less murderous that he does it with the best of intentions?

And also... Jorah is also a biased source.  He's looking to get into Dany's bed, so he's telling her what she wants to hear.  And even despite that, he's almost certainly never met Rhaegar in his life; he's going off hearsay.

Or seen her wearing them.  Or asked anyone in the Stark household.  Or asked someone in his retinue to ask.  Literally dozens of ways for him to find out without ever seeing or talking to Lyanna.

 

Right, and him naming her was an almost inconceivably massive social faux pas bordering on an insult.  Maybe, maybe he's spoken to her once or twice.  But there is no chance he's getting a word in edgewise after that, so it can't be that they arranged to run off together.

Look, speculation about emotions aside, this is what we know.

Lyanna was on her way home to Winterfell when Rhaegar accosted her on the road.  Whether or not they agreed to elope (and seriously... Rhaegar is already married and the second most important political figure in the realm, how the hell is that going to work out?), all we know is Lyanna gets pregnant, and is kept under armed guard at the Tower of Joy as a prisoner.  It isn't hard to work back from that.  The very fact she's imprisoned means she isn't a willing participant in all this.  And if she's not a prisoner, why in the world is she choosing to give birth at an isolated tower with no real medical support as far from her home and family as humanly possible?

You can hypothesize about their possibly speaking a couple times at Harrenhal (and really, a couple songs and a conversation are the basis for a passionate affair that they both know will lead to a war?), but at the end of the day, it's speculation.  All we know is the end result; Lyanna is both pregnant and a prisoner.  The latter implies that the former is as involuntary as her forced residence at the Tower of Joy.

12

You seem to be confused about what is facts from the text, what is implied by the text through insinuation and what can be conferred by different characters opinions and actions. And your personal opinions. 

For instance, your first mistake is that you have decided you know why he and she ended up in that tower and that it was because Rhaegar thinks he is fulfilling the pact of fire and ice, and that it means making a child with a Stark. You've also decided that you think that in doing so he is saving the world and that he has not explained himself to anyone. But there is not one single shred of evidence in the text to prove this.It is never implied in the text that the pact of ice and fire relates to TPTWP prophesy. It is as far as we know merely the plan for a marriage alliance which never occurred between the Targaryen's and the Starks. 

Hahaha, trust me I've spent my entire sexual life shagging musicians. 

 

Did you miss the part where Ned is Lyanna's brother? And that he spoke with her prior to her death? I mean, if so I can understand why you wouldn't realise that had Rhaegar abducted and raped her he'd have had a raging hatred for the man. But what we see instead is  pretty respectful thoughts on the man. And why would he be comparing Rhaegar to Robert? I mean Robert was the man she was supposed to marry, and Rhaegar was the man you say raped her. So why would her brother be comparing the men and finding Rhaegar comes off better?  By the way, using prostitutes is in itself an act of sexual predation. There is all sorts of research which makes it clear that most John's are seeking a sense of power and control, that the acts they request are often degrading and violent etc. Also Tyrion absolutely is a sexual predator, did you miss the part where he raped a woman who was being held against her will in Selhorys TWICE!!                                                                            Now what you have done here again is conflate your opinion with fact.  Barristan's entire self perception revolves around the idea that Rhaegar was this perfect prince. Well you see this is your opinion.  I agree Barristan's ideas about who he is are focussed very much on his role as a Kings Guard. But this doesn't imply his views of Rhaegar are tied to that. You have made a bit of a leap there. I agree he has a high opinion of Rhaegar and clearly was very fond of the man. I mean he will have watched the boygrow up his entire life so that makes sense. But to say his entire self perception is tied to his opinion of teh prince is a bit of a stretch. Especially without anything to back it up. I mean when does he tell us he see's Rhaegar as so perfect that it colours his perception of himself?  And would you mind pulling the quotes where he says he wishes he'd kept Aerys on the throne because Rhaegar would have become King? And where do you get the idea that he's in denial about Rhaegars role in the destruction of the realm? I mean the quote I gave you regarding Barristan saying that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna ends with And thousands died for it... Seems pretty clear to me that he knows Rhaegars love for her contributed to the outbreak of war.   There is also a quote from Barristan where he is telling her that being a good knight didn't win him any wars. ( I parraphrase) So I'd say that whilst he admires the man he doesn't have him on so lofty a pedastal that he is blind to his faults or mistakes.  OK, I'm going to break your next set of claims down. Dany is thinking this on the way to a wedding which she does not want in her heart. Lyanna was betrothed to a man whom she did not love. Lyanna was also on her way to a wedding when he "abducted" her. Not her own, but the paralels arethere and her brother whose wedding she was travellling to attend was marrying a woman he did not love for duty too. Brandon wasn't in love with Cat, we know that because he was shagging Barbrey. People who are deeply in love don't tend to shag arround. So when she suddenly drops this information about Rhaegar carrying Lyanna off at sword point and thinking that if Daario truly loved her he would do the same. That is a hint to the reader that the abduction wasn't really an abduction. The swords were not for Lyanna to force her, but rather for her retinue to prevent persuit. This is what the astute readercan asertain from the info drop.  Yes, we can assume Rhaella was not about to tell Viserys that his big brother abducted and raped a woman but if he had done that, why tell the boy anything at all? Surely the rebells can just be rebelling? No need to mention the girl at all it is not as if Viserys needed an explanation, he's 8! But if there is a love story well, then. In that case it is a nice way to try to help the boy process the information that his brother is dead. As he has died for love a very chivalrous ideal.  So the fact Dany knows anything of Lyanna at all implies there was no shamefull abduction. No mother wants to tell her children about her son being a rapist. That's the kind of family secret you just don't mention.  Viserys may not talk about their fathers madness, but Dany seems aware that her father had issues, as she stops Barristan from telling her about it and says she is not ready, but that she will want him to tell her everything eventually. Her biased opinions of the Starks and teh Baratheon's come from Viserys too, but they don't imply jack shit about the likelyhood Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. They only imply Viserys was an angry and hate filled young man unable to bear the truth about his father's actions.   We do not actually know that Rhaegar was looking for TPTWP in Lyanna, we can assume it was a factor because we know he was interested in teh prophesey, so much that he took up arms when he thought he was TPTWP and that he intended to have three children because the Dragon has three heads, which we can assume has soemthing to do with the prophesey because of the vision dany has.  But non of that excludes Lyanna going willingly.  It does explain why he'd risk upsetting Robert Baratheon though.  He could not have predicted the outcome of Aerys killing loads of nobles and calling for the young lords heads though.  He might suspect people would be pissed off but at no point before has a broken betrothal led to all out civil war, a duel yes. But not a war. The outcome was unprecidented.  yes Jorah is going of hear say which means the general hear say arround tehrealm is not that Rhaegar abducted her, or else he would not be calling him honourable or noble.  Note no one else thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist either, when Kevan thinks how much more beautiful Cersei was than Lyanna and that he can't understand why the Prince chose her over his niece. He's not thinking of Rhaegar choosing to abduct and rape Cersei. the implication is of romantic choices not abusive ones.  Once agian you have spectacularily missed the point! Lyanna died clutching the dead rose petals. Whose givingher roses in the ToJ? Rhaegar of course and the fact she dies clutching his flowers implies rape victim to you?  The thoughts about him having to have planned the crown of love and beauty means he likely spoke with her to ask her what her favourite flowers where, but yes he may have found out by other means. But she still died clutching his posey.   And yes maybe he and she spoke a few times at the Tourney and maybe that was enough to develop feelings for each other, feelings which can then be developed via Raben mail. And an elopement can be arranged that way too. I mean how do you think he knew where she was going to be? or do you think it was simple coincidence? A chance meeting?  Again you are wrong, no she was not on her way home to WF, she was on her way to RR for Brandon and Catelyn's wedding, and he had set out at the turn of the year from dragonstone with 6 of his closest companions.  Rhaegar is already married yes, but he is of a dynasty which has a history of Polygamy and a history of elopements too, Rhaenyra and Daemon and Jaehaerys II and Shaera. for example.  And whilst he is wed to Elia she can not provide him with marital relations anymore as the mere risk of pregnancy would be life ending for her, and he only has one son and heir; after a long drawn out period of his father and mother struggling with only one son and heir and all the worry that caused for the dynasty.  And again you have made some big leaps based on your own opinions and phrased them as fact. NOPE we do not know she was kept as a prisioner at all. We know she was at the ToJ and three KG were there with her, we know that they faught Eddard though so we know they did not want to give him accsess to his sister and we can assume from the clues in the text Jon Snow. We do not know that Rhaegar was keeping her against her will, we do not know that she was imprisioned, we do know the KG felt the rebel Eddard Stark was a threat to whatever their own agenda was. Whateverthat was. Bear in mind though that at this point Rhaegar is dead. So their agenda has to be more than Princes sex slave has to stay here.  Well there is a real life precident for this. Couples who had elloped used to hide away together until a pregnancy was visibly obvious. And then reapear so that no parents could deny marital consumation and get it annulled.  I suspect this was the initial reason for being down in Dorne at the ToJ.  But then war broke out. Oh Shit! not a safe time for a pregnant woman to be travelling at all. Then as the time comes near we know medievil women entered a period of confinement. This was basically the last trimester. Then we have the factor of Rhaegar being dead and the Targaryen dynasty destroyed and the idea of revealing this pregnancy suddenly seems a really bad idea!  At this point Lyanna is not important to the KG as an individual woman but only as a vessal for their Targaryen heir.  But bringing in Maesters etc is risky too, they might raven KL and inform Robert. So she is left to birth with probably a woodswitch. Maybe the female servants who attended her and Rhaegar at the tower. They hope it will go ok. But she gets childbed fever and dies several days after having given birth.  I mean at this point I concede she'd probably rather be at home in WF with her own maids and Maester etc but have you ever been pregnant? I dunno i didn't fancy a horse ride over war torn countryside! Not to mention that at this point she may have been being held against her will as the Kg may be more concerned with securing their King than Lyanna's welfare or wants.  I love how you talk of speculation when your post is nothing but.  

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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I know that post is riddled with typo's and I ought to go back inand edit. And I will. But right now my internet is slow,and it is Friday night, and my kids just broke up for summer term, and I have a bottle of spiced rum with my name on it. 

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