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btfu806

Arya character arc

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So, random thing I was thinking/talking about with some friends. What do you all think Arya's character arc is supposed to be in the show now? Generally (I believe at least) the books is about her trying to find her home or "pack" and it seems like in the show, she kinda has? Since she is now back with her family. Does she stay with them and fight WW now (which I don't know if that would make total sense but I get that they are hinting at it with the dagger)? Or is this stop with her family just another stop on her way to finding her true "pack"

Honestly, I can't really make sense of what they have done with her in the show. Is it just me?

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She will fulfill both contributing to her pack and finishing off her list.  Those two purposes complement one another.  Especially where Cersei is concerned.

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3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

So, random thing I was thinking/talking about with some friends. What do you all think Arya's character arc is supposed to be in the show now? Generally (I believe at least) the books is about her trying to find her home or "pack" and it seems like in the show, she kinda has? Since she is now back with her family. Does she stay with them and fight WW now (which I don't know if that would make total sense but I get that they are hinting at it with the dagger)? Or is this stop with her family just another stop on her way to finding her true "pack"

Honestly, I can't really make sense of what they have done with her in the show. Is it just me?

I think the overall contour of her story in the books and show will be the same- it will be about getting back with her family and finding her "pack" as you said.  I don't think her pack is beyond what we've already seen- Sansa, Bran, and Jon and maybe you can throw in Brienne and Pod.  And yeah, now that she has the Valyrian dagger I don't see her leaving Winterfell/her family and she will use it to fight the White Walkers.

I think the problem with her show arc was whatever the hell happened last year in Braavos at the House of Black and White and the Faceless Men.  I think without a roadmap to work off of in GRRM's books, the show didn't really know how to portray her training there and the resolution of her arc there, which has thrown off her overall character arc.

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Bran gave her the valyrian steel dagger, many people didn't see that it was an untold invitation to the war on NK, she's not go to the south to kill Cersei, the fight against the NK is her destiny

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I'm not sure. I think she has the dagger for a reason, most likely to fight against the NK and whatnot but other than that....I honestly can't see what her future is. Perhaps she dies during the fight? I'm not sure. Arya's endgame, character wise, is a mystery to me

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1 hour ago, Illiterati said:

She will fulfill both contributing to her pack and finishing off her list.  Those two purposes complement one another.  Especially where Cersei is concerned.

So you think Cersei will die by Arya? Show and book? If the book, then what about Valonqar? 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I think the overall contour of her story in the books and show will be the same- it will be about getting back with her family and finding her "pack" as you said.  I don't think her pack is beyond what we've already seen- Sansa, Bran, and Jon and maybe you can throw in Brienne and Pod.  And yeah, now that she has the Valyrian dagger I don't see her leaving Winterfell/her family and she will use it to fight the White Walkers.

I think the problem with her show arc was whatever the hell happened last year in Braavos at the House of Black and White and the Faceless Men.  I think without a roadmap to work off of in GRRM's books, the show didn't really know how to portray her training there and the resolution of her arc there, which has thrown off her overall character arc.

Agreed with this. I still don't get why she would suddenly fight the WWs. Just because that's what everyone else is doing? Because her family is doing it, so she must as well?

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GRRM has shown prophesies to be fallible, either at face value or by interpretation.  Volonqar could be a misinterpretation, an intentionally misleading prophesy, or just plain inaccurate in the end.

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1 minute ago, Illiterati said:

GRRM has shown prophesies to be fallible, either at face value or by interpretation.  Volonqar could be a misinterpretation, an intentionally misleading prophesy, or just plain inaccurate in the end.

That is very, very true. Wouldn't be surprising. Personally, I think that's what they are doing with the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. Showing the insane lengths people go to for prophecy, e.g., Rhaegar Targaryen basically started this whole mess we are in now because he wanted a 3rd child to fulfill the three heads of the dragon....

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I guess it kind of depends on how happy the ending is.  I expect it to be kind of tragic/bittersweet so I see Arya being more of the lone wolf who never finds her pack and doesn’t survive the winter.  It just seems like whenever she comes close to finding something resembling a pack she is either abandoned or she pushes it away.  I think her family will be her last trial as to whether she can settle down and be content with being part of a pack, and ultimately she will be too wild.

But then I love tragedies and always expect things to sadder than they are, and I have a horrible time judging Arya’s arc since it is one of my least favorites.

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This series is going to have a "Are you effing serious?" ending, I can feel it.

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D&D have been telling a VERY different story to GRRM, particularly in last 3 seasons, and have altered basically all of the characters personalities and abilities. 

In the books, Arya has a wide range of skills and abilities. She is intelligent, educated, street smart, speaks several languages, has learned stealth, manipulation and lie detection, has a head for numbers, has empathy and is not judgemental of others based on station in life yet is extremely vengeful and can be very ruthless. She also is a very powerful warg and this fact and her connection to her dire wolf Nymeria, even separated from her, is an important part of her story.

Martin has been setting Arya up to be a leader of some kind or major figure in the new Westeros (after war for dawn). She clearly wasnt created just to be 'badass' then die. That was Oberyn and others. Arya has been set up for much more.

Most likely, I believe her role will be a champion of the smallfolk or common people. 

In the show however, Arya is not a warg and D&D haven't focused on anything but her assassin and fighting abilities. Everything else is unexplored on show in any great detail.

I have grave concerns D&D are going to just kill Arya off as their next major character shock in Season 8 as ShowArya doesn't seem to really have much of a role in shaping future Westeros after war for Dawn like bookArya does. I think Sansa will be given any role Arya was meant to have post final battle with NK.

 

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4 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

D&D have been telling a VERY different story to GRRM, particularly in last 3 seasons, and have altered basically all of the characters personalities and abilities. 

In the books, Arya has a wide range of skills and abilities. She is intelligent, educated, street smart, speaks several languages, has learned stealth, manipulation and lie detection, has a head for numbers, has empathy and is not judgemental of others based on station in life yet is extremely vengeful and can be very ruthless. She also is a very powerful warg and this fact and her connection to her dire wolf Nymeria, even separated from her, is an important part of her story.

Martin has been setting Arya up to be a leader of some kind or major figure in the new Westeros (after war for dawn). She clearly wasnt created just to be 'badass' then die. That was Oberyn and others. Arya has been set up for much more.

Most likely, I believe her role will be a champion of the smallfolk or common people. 

In the show however, Arya is not a warg and D&D haven't focused on anything but her assassin and fighting abilities. Everything else is unexplored on show in any great detail.

I have grave concerns D&D are going to just kill Arya off as their next major character shock in Season 8 as ShowArya doesn't seem to really have much of a role in shaping future Westeros after war for Dawn like bookArya does. I think Sansa will be given any role Arya was meant to have post final battle with NK.

 

Yes to literally everything in this post. Book!Arya is complex, empathetic, multi-skilled, her main arc is about finding her "pack" and her story is saturated with leadership imagery particularly with Nymeria and the wolf pack. Show!Arya is just a vengeful badass whose whole focus is finishing her list (which was a coping method in the book).

The books really seem to be pointing towards Arya being a big player in some way: Leading the wolf pack as a warg with Nymeria, a battle tactician/leader of some kind in the War of the Dawn, representing/championing the smallfolk as a leader after the war, (a kind of spiritual successor to the Brotherhood without Banners?),  her language skills, stealth and lie detection/manipulation skills would make her a great spymaster or even politician of some kind in rebuilding the kingdom. She also has a lot more connections to the North and the Northernmen which could set her up for leadership of the North. So many options. 

But the show has removed all of that, just made her a warrior and ended up giving Sansa a greater role in the North, a closer relationship with Jon, a place as leader and be the one uniting "the pack" which was Arya's thing. So I really worry that they'll give a version of Arya's endgame to Sansa and kill Arya to make things more tragic because they don't think she'll have a role after the fighting is done. Which is urghhh. (They've also reduced Bran's role and his connections to WF, possibly they're giving that to Sansa as well). 

I know GRRM said the main ending points of the story would be the same but 1) While he views Arya as a main point and central character the show doesn't and 2) That was a long time ago, and the show has kept deviating further away from the books.

8 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think the overall contour of her story in the books and show will be the same- it will be about getting back with her family and finding her "pack" as you said.  I don't think her pack is beyond what we've already seen- Sansa, Bran, and Jon and maybe you can throw in Brienne and Pod.  And yeah, now that she has the Valyrian dagger I don't see her leaving Winterfell/her family and she will use it to fight the White Walkers.

I think the problem with her show arc was whatever the hell happened last year in Braavos at the House of Black and White and the Faceless Men.  I think without a roadmap to work off of in GRRM's books, the show didn't really know how to portray her training there and the resolution of her arc there, which has thrown off her overall character arc.

Unfortunately the show has barely portrayed Arya and the importance of a "pack" to her, even though it was her driving force in the books. They even gave Sansa Arya's "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives line."

I do think the show has suffered from not having the books as a guideline. In previous seasons they had a rough framework and a lot of scenes pre-written and they just moved bits around. The overall arc was there for them. When they've had to write their own storylines things have fallen apart logically and it's just a mess. To be fair, GRRM takes years putting the plot together, they don't have much time. But the difference following his story arc in previous seasons vs. their own plot later on shows.

I think if the books were already written than Arya's endgame wouldn't be likely to change, as it would be pretty glaring. But as no one knows about her fate D&D can just do what they want.

(For the record I really, really hope I'm wrong and Arya does live and does amazing things).

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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The show has absolutely suffered from no longer having books as a guide. In seasons 1-4, there actually was some solid foundations laid for Arya's character and arc. They did show her toughness, but also Arya's empathetic and non-judgemental nature (a big part of who she is) in the show many times in first four seasons (With Mycah, hot Pie, gendry, farmer and his daughter, etc).

Season 5 and onwards the writing and plotlines have destroyed that groundwork and simplified Arya to a badass killing machine.

Edited by Gaz0680

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5 hours ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

Unfortunately the show has barely portrayed Arya and the importance of a "pack" to her, even though it was her driving force in the books.

The minute she heard Jon was at Winterfell, she rode home and gave up her List and revenge and going South. Why do people not look at this with more weight and just gloss over it?

The writers revealed their inspiration for Arya's return to Winterfell as "Odysseus Homecoming". 

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4 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

The minute she heard Jon was at Winterfell, she rode home and gave up her List and revenge and going South. Why do people not look at this with more weight and just gloss over it?

The writers revealed their inspiration for Arya's return to Winterfell as "Odysseus Homecoming". 

Arya turning back because of Jon is a huge thing considering how obsessed Arya was over her list. Then they miss each other because Jon left. Their reunion will matter.

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12 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Arya turning back because of Jon is a huge thing considering how obsessed Arya was over her list. Then they miss each other because Jon left. Their reunion will matter.

Exactly. D&D also planned some Bran dialogue where he is surprised Arya go to Winterfell so quickly because he thought the storm would slow her down. That shows the writers understood the urgency Arya would be feeling to get back home.

Family has always mattered more to Arya than anything else in the world. 

And we can see the subtle changes the writers are putting into her character: Highlighting a pretty she is and that she doesn't mind being called a Lady.  

Edited by DutchArya

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35 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

The minute she heard Jon was at Winterfell, she rode home and gave up her List and revenge and going South. Why do people not look at this with more weight and just gloss over it?

The writers revealed their inspiration for Arya's return to Winterfell as "Odysseus Homecoming". 

You're right, I was thinking about her first conversations with Bran and Sansa being all about her list rather than pack/family which was super off putting. But her choosing home over killing Cersei was a great moment and did establish her true priorities. And Hot Pie calling her pretty gives me hope they're going to treat her more as a woman with feelings and interpersonal relationships not just a killing machine. 

Edit: @DutchArya we posted at the same time, but yes the lady/pretty comments hopefully suggest a more nuanced writing of Arya! 

27 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Arya turning back because of Jon is a huge thing considering how obsessed Arya was over her list. Then they miss each other because Jon left. Their reunion will matter.

Her reaction to hearing Jon took WF and Sansa acknowledging that Jon loved her the most does suggest that they might put some effort into the Arya/Jon reunion after all. Their relationship has been downplayed from the books - partly because you don't get the characters internal narrative - but it was interesting that the writers chose to go with Arya finding out Jon (not Sansa as well or "the Starks") took back the North and her reaction was focused on him. 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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11 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

D&D have been telling a VERY different story to GRRM, particularly in last 3 seasons, and have altered basically all of the characters personalities and abilities. 

In the books, Arya has a wide range of skills and abilities. She is intelligent, educated, street smart, speaks several languages, has learned stealth, manipulation and lie detection, has a head for numbers, has empathy and is not judgemental of others based on station in life yet is extremely vengeful and can be very ruthless. She also is a very powerful warg and this fact and her connection to her dire wolf Nymeria, even separated from her, is an important part of her story.

Martin has been setting Arya up to be a leader of some kind or major figure in the new Westeros (after war for dawn). She clearly wasnt created just to be 'badass' then die. That was Oberyn and others. Arya has been set up for much more.

Most likely, I believe her role will be a champion of the smallfolk or common people. 

In the show however, Arya is not a warg and D&D haven't focused on anything but her assassin and fighting abilities. Everything else is unexplored on show in any great detail.

I have grave concerns D&D are going to just kill Arya off as their next major character shock in Season 8 as ShowArya doesn't seem to really have much of a role in shaping future Westeros after war for Dawn like bookArya does. I think Sansa will be given any role Arya was meant to have post final battle with NK.

Nailed it.

 

Much as Jaime sometimes shows concern at Cersei's actions and Bran sometimes acts like a normal human, Arya also sometimes acts like she would in the books. But for the most part all three come across as totally different people. Showing Arya's loyalty to her family is pretty much the only thing they have got consistently right. Even then there are oversights like leaving Edmure to rot.

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2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Exactly. D&D also planned some Bran dialogue where he is surprised Arya go to Winterfell so quickly because he thought the storm would slow her down. That shows the writers understood the urgency Arya would be feeling to get back home.

Family has always mattered more to Arya than anything else in the world. 

Aww, I didn't know that. Really wish they'd kept that in, instead of focusing both Arya's reunions on her list. 

40 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Nailed it.

 

Much as Jaime sometimes shows concern at Cersei's actions and Bran sometimes acts like a normal human, Arya also sometimes acts like she would in the books. But for the most part all three come across as totally different people. Showing Arya's loyalty to her family is pretty much the only thing they have got consistently right. Even then there are oversights like leaving Edmure to rot.

Basically yep. As much as I complain about them butchering Arya, she's fared much better than a lot of other characters. I mean Jaime who is now almost the exact opposite of his book counterpart and his most defining/best decision of his life (killing Aerys to stop the wildfire) has been thrown aside for him to follow Cersei. Then there was Stannis who in the books was a subversion of the evil uncle King in his rocky fortress, but actually had a lot of honour, duty to the kingdom and a justified claim. Meanwhile, the writers took it at face value. (They really missed the entire point of the Renly and Stannis contrast). So really I should probably be relieved Arya isn't much worse. 

(D&D seem to struggle with realising that GRRM's characters often deconstructions and reconstructions of character archetypes, putting them in the real world and giving them complexity: the rebellious princess (Arya), princess classic (Sansa), the young king/avenging his father (Robb),  the "good" King (Renly). But too often D&D just play the stereotypes straight and miss all the layers). 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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1 hour ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

You're right, I was thinking about her first conversations with Bran and Sansa being all about her list rather than pack/family which was super off putting. But her choosing home over killing Cersei was a great moment and did establish her true priorities. And Hot Pie calling her pretty gives me hope they're going to treat her more as a woman with feelings and interpersonal relationships not just a killing machine. 

Edit: @DutchArya we posted at the same time, but yes the lady/pretty comments hopefully suggest a more nuanced writing of Arya! 

Her reaction to hearing Jon took WF and Sansa acknowledging that Jon loved her the most does suggest that they might put some effort into the Arya/Jon reunion after all. Their relationship has been downplayed from the books - partly because you don't get the characters internal narrative - but it was interesting that the writers chose to go with Arya finding out Jon (not Sansa as well or "the Starks") took back the North and her reaction was focused on him. 

I think that will be important for future episodes where Arya - who is also styled and looks like Jon - will be defending him against the Northern Lords + Sansa who get frustrated that he isn't back from his trip down South. I think we'll see Arya making friends with Lyanna Mormont as well as they probably have a lot in common. 

S7 is setting up for everything that will come in S8. 

Do you think D&D will add some time jumps in the really long eps in the final season? The Long Night can't be over in just a few months considering the last one was a generation long. At least enough time for Dany to give birth at the very least. 

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