Who was the rightful king in the TWoFK?

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly was usurping the Crown from his nephews and Stannis. He happily admits this. He thinks he would make the best king and  cites Robert's lack of being next in the succession line as a parallel. 

He does not think he is the 'righful' heir, he thinks Joffrey is. 

In fact, he knew about the incest, because he was planning to let Robert know and then shove Margaery to his bed. As Stannis says and Renly admits in Catelyn III, ACOK, he was conspiring with Mace on that. 

The reason he claims not to know is because, if he admits Robert has no trueborn children, Stannis is the true King, making Renly a traitor (which he is, but if he is a traitor to Joffrey, the same applies to Stannis, plus he seems a traitor to a tyrant, while if he is a traitor to Stannis, he betrays the most just and meitocratic man in the whole continent).

No wonder Renly resorts to the "might makes right" theory. He has no legal claim, does not have the advantage of a broad coalition (Robert had the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands and later got the Westerlands and the Iron Islands, while Renly has the Reach minus its two strongest vassal houses and a handful of Stormlords not even one fourth of them), does not know how to fight or rule.

[Bernie Mac]

23 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

In fact, he knew about the incest,

He clearly didnt. Otherwise when he is telling Ned that their lives are in danger from Cersei he would have brought up the fact that Joffrey is a bastard rather than crowning him. 

In ACOK he laughs at Stannis' story. 

Both his words and his actions show him to not know the truth, a truth that actually benfeiftis him. 

23 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

because he was planning to let Robert know

Zero evidence in the books about this. 

23 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

and then shove Margaery to his bed. As Stannis says and Renly admits in Catelyn III, ACOK, he was conspiring with Mace on that. 

Yes, he was conspiring to have Cerise put aside. This is well known to a few people. That fact that in the same conversation that he laughs at Stannis' story it is Renly telling people this plan shows that Renly did not know. 

23 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The reason he claims not to know is because, if he admits Robert has no trueborn children, Stannis is the true King, making Renly a traitor

He is a traitor anyway. It makes his job easier as the sons of Robert are likely to be more popular than Stannis is. Usurping one person is easier than usurping three people. 

 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He clearly didnt. Otherwise when he is telling Ned that their lives are in danger from Cersei he would have brought up the fact that Joffrey is a bastard rather than crowning him. 

In ACOK he laughs at Stannis' story. 

Both his words and his actions show him to not know the truth, a truth that actually benfeiftis him. 

Zero evidence in the books about this. 

Yes, he was conspiring to have Cerise put aside. This is well known to a few people. That fact that in the same conversation that he laughs at Stannis' story it is Renly telling people this plan shows that Renly did not know. 

He is a traitor anyway. It makes his job easier as the sons of Robert are likely to be more popular than Stannis is. Usurping one person is easier than usurping three people. 

 

Except he does not benefit from acknowledging he knows. Don't forget what Cat says, that as long as Joffrey sits on the Throne (up to that point, she does not know about the incest) they are all traitors. What Renly wants to do there is to undermine Stannis and prevent a Stark-Baratheon alliance.

He laughs at Stannis' story because he is a very petty person and not above repeating Littlefinger's fable that Patchface had been sleeping with Selyse.

He wanted to have Cersei put aside. Robert would never do such a thing unless he had a VERY legitimate reason. He did not want to have troubles with Tywin, lest we forget. However, if he ever discovered such a thing, his wroth would drive him to do thing he would not normally do. 

And, there is the Margaery conspiracy. As we know, Robert is one of the people who will have sex with any woman and go on. If he had sex with Margaery while Cersei was the queen, it would not avail Mace, for Robert would either forget her in the first comely face he glimpsed in a tavern or brothel or just do nothing, so that he would not anger Tywin.

[Megorova]

50 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

"The throne by rights passes to Lord Stannis, the elder of Robert's two brothers."

According to customs, usually next in line of succession is older brother, but in their case it was younger brother. If by giving Dragonstone's seat to Stannis, Robert named Stannis as his successor, then there was no need to make Renly Lord of Stormlands. Robert could have left to Stannis both titles - Prince of Dragonstone and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. And the key difference between giving to Stannis both titles, or only title of Dragonstone's Prince, is that in second case, Robert's heir apparent is whoever is Lord of Stormlands, and that is Renly.

2 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Stannis considered the granting of Dragonstone rather than Storm's End as a slight, but then again he saw many things as a slight.  Nowhere in the text of the books does it indicate that Renly was ahead of Stannis in the line of succession.

After Robert, next Lord of Stormlands became Renly, and not Stannis even though he was older. There was no need to take away from Stannis that title, Robert could have given him both, but he didn't. Lords Paramounts of Stormlands: Steffon, Robert, Renly.

Stannis was removed from succession line of Baratheons. Isn't it obvious?

And it was purely Targaryens custom to give to heir apparent title of Dragonstone's Prince, and Stannis wasn't a Targaryen. Thus giving to him Dragonstone, didn't meant that Robert chose him as Crown's successor. Targaryens' customs were removed by Robert, and he followed Baratheon's customs. He made Renly to inherit Storm's End, and thru this named him as his successor, overstepping Stannis.

1 hour ago, SunfyreTheGolden said:

Man, this page of the wiki should not contain the spoilers from the 6th and 7th seasons. Because this page only contains information given by books and GRRM. Please be more careful next time. 

Ok, let's ignore 'spoilers' from GOT. Which doesn't change anything much. What I previously wrote - if Robert was an usurper, and conquering throne, doesn't make him a legitimate King of 7K, then rightful King/Queen is one of Targaryens. Without taking into account any spoilers, that should be Young Griff / Aegon Martell.

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Please don't pollute this thread with HBO's show, besides even if R+L=J is revealed Jon still doesn't have a claim because 1) he's a bastard, 2) the Targaryens lost the throne and 3) he has an older brother; the actual Aegon Targaryen.

2) If 'conqueror = legitimate ruler', then yes, Targaryens have no rightful claim.

But that's legit only under certain conditions: either previous ruler and his successors were anihilated, or agreed to terms of conqueror (like King in The North has bend the knee to Aegon I). But Targaryens managed to escape from Robert, and they didn't renounced their succession rights, nor agreed to Robert's claim.

I forgot one detail - the reason why Robert denounced Stannis, wasn't because of siege of Storm's End, but because Stannis didn't managed to capture surviving Targaryens, and thus failed to make Robert a 100% rightful King. As he complained that there are still people that called him an usurper. That's because even though King Aerys and Rhaegar and Aegon Martell were dead, as long as Viserys and Daenerys were alive, and haven't agreed to Robert's claim, he isn't a rightful King.

1) and 3) ->

Spoiler

3) Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia.

According to modern civil and church laws, if the marriage is annulled, children from that marriage still remain as legitimate. But there are conditions under which children from annulled marriage are becoming bastards. That is if marriage wasn't putative.

Canon 1137 of The Code of Canon Law states that “The children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate.” Canon 1061 of the Code of Canon Law states that “An invalid marriage is called putative if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one of the parties, until both parties become certain of its nullity”.

If Rhaegar and Elia both said to High Septon that they didn't married willingly, or in good faith, then he can annul their marriage, and in this case children from that marriage will become bastards.

Seems that in the books, Rhaegar told his father about change of status of his children with Elia, that the two of them became bastards. And that's the reason why Aerys declared Viserys as his heir, and not Aegon Targaryen. Because that baby became Aegon Martell, while real Aegon Targaryen (Aegon Stark) at that time was still unborn. Though Lyanna and Rhaegar married, so whether her child was a boy or a girl, that baby was a Targaryen, and Rhaegar's legitimate heir. But just in case if that baby will be a girl, or will be born dead, or will die shortly after birth, Aerys after Rhaegar's death, named Viserys as Crown's heir. Because later, if the baby will turn out to be a boy, and will survive, then he will become King and not Viserys.

1) He's Aegon Targaryen. While first Aegon, Aegon Martell became a bastard instead.

 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Dood said:

The custom is really hard to bypass : Tarly had to literally force his son to take the black to remove him from his line of succession, had Sam refused, he would have had to kill him.

If he really wanted to kill Sam, he could have killed him, instead of sending him to Nights Watch. If he just named his younger son as his heir, then it was the same as announcing  "my firstborn son is a weakling, and a fat pig, he's a disgrace for Tarlys, that's why I named my younger son as my successor." He didn't wanted to go thru those legal notions, because it would've brought negative PR to his family. He could do that, but he prefered to make Sam go away to NW, and change his heir quietly, without disgracing his family's name.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Except he does not benefit from acknowledging he knows.

Of course he does. Joffrey and his siblings are removed from the succession line. Instead of having to usurp three/four people he only had to usurp 1 person. This is just simple maths, the beneift of only (the unpopular) Stannis in his way rather than the sons of the popular Robert and Stannis should be obvious to anyone. 

 

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Don't forget what Cat says, that as long as Joffrey sits on the Throne (up to that point, she does not know about the incest) they are all traitors. What Renly wants to do there is to undermine Stannis and prevent a Stark-Baratheon alliance.

eh? The Starks are not fighting for him. He never sent an emissary to Robb before or after he crowned himself. 

Telling Ned the truth rids himself of the Lannister problem, a House who are more powerful than the Starks.

And this conversation makes zero sense if Renly knew the truth

"Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

 

He is clearly scared of Cersei and given what he thinks is on the line - HIS LIFE-  it makes zero sense not telling Ned the truth there and then. 

 

Quote

He laughs at Stannis' story because he is a very petty person and not above repeating Littlefinger's fable that Patchface had been sleeping with Selyse.

Both brothers are petty. Stannis can't help himself telling Renly that his wife will never get pregnant or that he tried to whore her out to Robert. 

And explain to me why Stannis, Cat or none of the other lords present come to the conclusion that Renly must have known given he told them all his intention for Margaery to marry Robert? It is only Stannis fans who are desperate to show that Stannis was not the only brother of Robert who shirked his royal duty by failing to tell Robert his suspicions. 

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He wanted to have Cersei put aside. Robert would never do such a thing unless he had a VERY legitimate reason. He did not want to have troubles with Tywin, lest we forget. However, if he ever discovered such a thing, his wroth would drive him to do thing he would not normally do. 

 

None of that proves anything. At the begining of the series Cersei is worried about being put aside by Robert

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

 

Kings can put aside their wives. This is not evidence that Renly knew. Renly freely admits to wanting to do this and none of the characters come to the conclusion that Stannis fans have. 

 

Quote

And, there is the Margaery conspiracy. As we know, Robert is one of the people who will have sex with any woman and go on. If he had sex with Margaery while Cersei was the queen, it would not avail Mace, for Robert would either forget her in the first comely face he glimpsed in a tavern or brothel or just do nothing, so that he would not anger Tywin.

What does this have to do with anything? How does this prove that Renly knew?

[Pikachu101]

26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

But that's legit only under certain conditions: either previous ruler and his successors were anihilated, or agreed to terms of conqueror 

Not really, Edward of Westminster escaped England but that didn't mean Edward IV's reign wasn't legal. Robert, just like Edward, overthrew the ruling house thus making him king regardless of whether or not the Targaryens bent the knee. 

28 minutes ago, Megorova said:

the reason why Robert denounced Stannis

What makes you think Robert denounced Stannis? He gave him Dragonstone, the traditional seat of the King's heir.

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

as Viserys and Daenerys were alive, and haven't agreed to Robert's claim, he isn't a rightful King.

Robert doesn't need Viserys and Dany's permission to be crowned king, they lost any legal right they had to the throne when Robert was crowned king. Besides, Targ supporters calling him a "Usurper" doesn't make it valid since it's clear that none of the Houses (minus the Martells) were in arms to support a Targaryen claim. 

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

1) and 3) ->

  Reveal hidden contents

3) Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia.

According to modern civil and church laws, if the marriage is annulled, children from that marriage still remain as legitimate. But there are conditions under which children from annulled marriage are becoming bastards. That is if marriage wasn't putative.

Canon 1137 of The Code of Canon Law states that “The children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate.” Canon 1061 of the Code of Canon Law states that “An invalid marriage is called putative if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one of the parties, until both parties become certain of its nullity”.

If Rhaegar and Elia both said to High Septon that they didn't married willingly, or in good faith, then he can annul their marriage, and in this case children from that marriage will become bastards.

Seems that in the books, Rhaegar told his father about change of status of his children with Elia, that the two of them became bastards. And that's the reason why Aerys declared Viserys as his heir, and not Aegon Targaryen. Because that baby became Aegon Martell, while real Aegon Targaryen (Aegon Stark) at that time was still unborn. Though Lyanna and Rhaegar married, so whether her child was a boy or a girl, that baby was a Targaryen, and Rhaegar's legitimate heir. But just in case if that baby will be a girl, or will be born dead, or will die shortly after birth, Aerys after Rhaegar's death, named Viserys as Crown's heir. Because later, if the baby will turn out to be a boy, and will survive, then he will become King and not Viserys.

1) He's Aegon Targaryen. While first Aegon, Aegon Martell became a bastard instead.

 

This is a book thread, no one is interested in the show and its terrible writing 

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If he really wanted to kill Sam, he could have killed him

Kinslaying is a terrible crime in Westerosi culture

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If he just named his younger son as his heir, then it was the same as announcing  "my firstborn son is a weakling, and a fat pig, he's a disgrace for Tarlys, that's why I named my younger son as my successor." 

Legally Sam's the heir and if anything were to happen to Randyll he'd get the seat, by making him join the NW it was the safest way to ensure that he wouldn't become Lord of Horn Hill.

[Dood]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If he really wanted to kill Sam, he could have killed him, instead of sending him to Nights Watch. If he just named his younger son as his heir, then it was the same as announcing  "my firstborn son is a weakling, and a fat pig, he's a disgrace for Tarlys, that's why I named my younger son as my successor." He didn't wanted to go thru those legal notions, because it would've brought negative PR to his family. He could do that, but he prefered to make Sam go away to NW, and change his heir quietly, without disgracing his family's name.

Tarly titles and lands are the crown property, he cannot simply name an heir. His heir is by law/custom the first male born under marriage, he could not do that because it was not in his power.

Maybe the king would have allowed it, chances are we would not, as it would go against custom which is a big no-no.

 

[Trigger Warning]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

snip

 

Just to add to Bernie's argument. 

"“So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer‟s get—” “—your brother is the lawful heir.” “While he lives,” Renly admitted." 

If Renly already knew that Robert's children were bastards then this little thought he has here would have to be an act for Cat's benefit which doesn't make much sense or gain him anything. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

20 minutes ago, Dood said:

Tarly titles and lands are the crown property, he cannot simply name an heir. His heir is by law/custom the first male born under marriage, he could not do that because it was not in his power.

Maybe the king would have allowed it, chances are we would not, as it would go against custom which is a big no-no.

 

Tarly's lands and titles are not crown property. The Red Keep is crown propertyThey can be taken away for only certain offenses, but naming your own heir is hardly something worth mentioning in the same breath.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Of course he does. Joffrey and his siblings are removed from the succession line. Instead of having to usurp three/four people he only had to usurp 1 person. This is just simple maths, the beneift of only (the unpopular) Stannis in his way rather than the sons of the popular Robert and Stannis should be obvious to anyone. 

 

eh? The Starks are not fighting for him. He never sent an emissary to Robb before or after he crowned himself. 

Telling Ned the truth rids himself of the Lannister problem, a House who are more powerful than the Starks.

And this conversation makes zero sense if Renly knew the truth

"Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

 

He is clearly scared of Cersei and given what he thinks is on the line - HIS LIFE-  it makes zero sense not telling Ned the truth there and then. 

 

Both brothers are petty. Stannis can't help himself telling Renly that his wife will never get pregnant or that he tried to whore her out to Robert. 

And explain to me why Stannis, Cat or none of the other lords present come to the conclusion that Renly must have known given he told them all his intention for Margaery to marry Robert? It is only Stannis fans who are desperate to show that Stannis was not the only brother of Robert who shirked his royal duty by failing to tell Robert his suspicions. 

 

None of that proves anything. At the begining of the series Cersei is worried about being put aside by Robert

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

 

Kings can put aside their wives. This is not evidence that Renly knew. Renly freely admits to wanting to do this and none of the characters come to the conclusion that Stannis fans have. 

 

What does this have to do with anything? How does this prove that Renly knew?

Well, Stannis being unpopular is just a myth. In the Stormlands, who were ruled by Renly, Houses Bolling, Buckler, Fell, Gower, Grandison, Horpe, Hasty, Mertyns, Peasebury, Wensington, Wylde, Staedmon and Seaworth support him while they never cast their lot with Renly. In the Crownlands, Houses Farring, Follard, Chyttering, Suggs and Massey were sworn to King's Landing, but did not aid the Lannisters, supporting Stannis instead. From the Reach, the Fossoways, Florents, Mullendores, Meadows sided with Stannis instead of Mace after Renly died. Mace and the Tyrells had no respect for Renly, save for Loras, who was his lover. From the Lannister-held Westerlands, the Foxgloves declare for Stannis. The only people who truly liked Renly were Loras, Brienne and maybe Ser Cortnay Penrose.

Renly wanted just to seize the crown when Robert died. If he was not conspiring against the Lannisters- which he did- he had no reason to be afraid.

At that point, Cat has not been able to put two and two together, since she has not determined why was Bran thrown from the tower.

Cersei's worries partly stem from her own vanity. However, Robert would never put her aside, for he did not want to anger Tywin. His behavior towards Eddard shows exactly that.

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Well, Stannis being unpopular is just a myth. In the Stormlands, who were ruled by Renly, Houses Bolling, Buckler, Fell, Gower, Grandison, Horpe, Hasty, Mertyns, Peasebury, Wensington, Wylde, Staedmon and Seaworth support him while they never cast their lot with Renly. In the Crownlands, Houses Farring, Follard, Chyttering, Suggs and Massey were sworn to King's Landing, but did not aid the Lannisters, supporting Stannis instead. From the Reach, the Fossoways, Florents, Mullendores, Meadows sided with Stannis instead of Mace after Renly died. Mace and the Tyrells had no respect for Renly, save for Loras, who was his lover. From the Lannister-held Westerlands, the Foxgloves declare for Stannis. The only people who truly liked Renly were Loras, Brienne and maybe Ser Cortnay Penrose.

Renly wanted just to seize the crown when Robert died. If he was not conspiring against the Lannisters- which he did- he had no reason to be afraid.

At that point, Cat has not been able to put two and two together, since she has not determined why was Bran thrown from the tower.

Cersei's worries partly stem from her own vanity. However, Robert would never put her aside, for he did not want to anger Tywin. His behavior towards Eddard shows exactly that.

Where did you come up with this tripe? 

“If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?”

Stannis being unpopular is both true and overemphasized. Most of the people you pointed out ended up bending the knee to Joffrey while a few went north with Stannis. The people who are loyal to Stannis are loyal far beyond any intelligent or pragmatic view.

Renly, however, was extremely popular, both with the commoners and the nobles. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Joffrey is. Because he is the bastard of Cersei and Jaime who are the bastards Aerys and Joanna. Baratheon Usurpers are removed through Robert's favourite pastime, bastard making!

You may say he has no right because he's a bastard but he sits his arse on the throne so he can legitimize both his parents and himself. His siblings too if he wants to marry Myrcella TARGARYEN and not WATERS.

Baratheons themselves are a bastard branch so he has as much right to sit on the throne as his supposed father and distant cousin Robert.

This is for Iron throne of course. Robb is rightful king of The North. Twice in a generation Targaryen on the Iron Throne have murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, North has it's right to be independent. Riverlands also have the right to secede from the IT as the King stands idly while his grandfather rapes and pillages throughout the Riverlands. Clear breach of feudal contract if you ask me.

Balon has no rights to be a king. It's twice now in a generation that Iron Islanders oppurtunistically dishonor their contract with the IT.

 

psst

Jaime and Cersei were secretly in the works to remove the Baratheon usurpers and reinstall Targaryens to the IT. While it didn't go to smoothly it worked so far!

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Well, Stannis being unpopular is just a myth.

No, it quite clearly is not. This is something Stannis himself acknowledges. And we are told from the first book that many Lords throughout the realm, including Tyrell and Redwyne, would rebel rather than see Stannis as King. 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

In the Stormlands, who were ruled by Renly, Houses Bolling, Buckler, Fell, Gower, Grandison, Horpe, Hasty, Mertyns, Peasebury, Wensington, Wylde, Staedmon and Seaworth support him while they never cast their lot with Renly.

Wrong. Stannis initially got zero support from the Stormlords until he murdered his brother. 

In Stannis' own words; "He made me a poor envoy in any case. The storm lords will not rise for me. It seems they do not like me, and the justice of my cause means nothing to them. The cravenly ones will sit behind their walls waiting to see how the wind rises and who is likely to triumph. The bold ones have already declared for Renly. For Renly!" He spat out the name like poison on his tongue.

And GRRM mentions how the 20k that rode with Renly were mostly Stormlords: Most of the actual storm lords went with Renly. They were horsed, after all -- knights and high lords -- and they wanted a share of the glory of smashing Stannis. 

And later he points out the fickleness of the men he gained from Renly:"Aye, I have a tail of traitors, your nose does not deceive you. My lords bannermen are inconstant even in their treasons. I need them, but you should know how it sickens me to pardon such as these when I have punished better men for lesser crimes. You have every right to reproach me, Ser Davos."

Many of whom abandon Stannis as soon as they see Renly again: 

"Is it true that Stannis was put to rout by Renly's ghost?"

Bronn smiled thinly. "From the winch towers, all we saw was banners in the mud and men throwing down their spears to run, but there's hundreds in the pot shops and brothels who'll tell you how they saw Lord Renly kill this one or that one. Most of Stannis's host had been Renly's to start, and they went right back over at the sight of him in that shiny green armor."

 

The only Stormland House who was loyal to Stannis was Davos, an insignificant petty lord who was Stannis' vassal to begin with. 

 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

In the Crownlands, Houses Farring, Follard, Chyttering, Suggs and Massey were sworn to King's Landing, but did not aid the Lannisters, supporting Stannis instead.

Not that we know of. We don't know which House they were sworn to. And for the most case you are referring to knights, not actual Lords. House Royce did not support Renly despite one of Yohn's sons being amongst Renly's ranks. 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

From the Reach, the Fossoways, Florents, Mullendores, Meadows sided with Stannis instead of Mace after Renly died.

But originally with Renly. In fact there is a Florent child named after Renly. 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

Mace and the Tyrells had no respect for Renly, save for Loras, who was his lover.

Does this homophobic bullshit never end with some of you Stannis fans? Can you really not get past the fact that Renly was gay?

Renly's popularity had little to do with him being gay any more than Robert's popularity had to do with him being promiscuous. 

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best?

Stannis himself even points out the difference between himself and his brothers; "Davos would tell you different," Stannis said. "Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once lovedRobert . . . and as they have never loved me."

And it is not just the Reach and Stormlords who loved him; In truth, Renly Baratheon did not frighten Tyrion half so much as his brother Stannis did. Renly was beloved of the commons, but he had never before led men in war.

 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

From the Lannister-held Westerlands, the Foxgloves declare for Stannis.

The who?

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

The only people who truly liked Renly were Loras, Brienne and maybe Ser Cortnay Penrose.

Actually bullshit. 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Renly wanted just to seize the crown when Robert died. If he was not conspiring against the Lannisters- which he did- he had no reason to be afraid.

He actually did not.

 

• His first option was that Cersei be removed, Joffrey crowned and Ned serve as Regent. That is what he wanted Ned to do
• Ned refuses, Renly tells him their lives will be in danger
• Renly leaves the capital only to hear that Ned is imprisoned, this would only confirm Renly's fears about Cersei
• Cersei gives orders that a number of Lords, included Renly, come to the capital and swear fealty or lose their lands
• Renly becomes King for two reasons, ambition and a fear of his life

Renly was actively conspiring against Cersei in his conversation with Ned, it was Ned who was refusing Renly's plans for Cersei. The next thing Renly knows is that Ned is being arrested. Why would he assume he was safe when Ned was not?

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

At that point, Cat has not been able to put two and two together, since she has not determined why was Bran thrown from the tower.

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with Renly knowing? Renly does not know that it was the Lannisters who threw Bran from the tower so what does this have to do with the conversation?

 

7 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Cersei's worries partly stem from her own vanity. However, Robert would never put her aside, for he did not want to anger Tywin. His behavior towards Eddard shows exactly that.

I agree. I doubt it would have happened, but that does not change the fact that both Cersei and Renly thought it a possibility so it is hardly evidence that Renly knew. 

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

What makes you think Robert denounced Stannis? He gave him Dragonstone, the traditional seat of the King's heir.

Of Targaryen's heir, which Stannis wasn't.

He gave him Dragonstone, and Dragonstone only, to remove him from Stormlands.

If Robert's rebellion never happened, he would have married (with Lyanna, or some other girl), and his oldest son would've became next Lord of Stormlands. While Stannis and Renly would never have any titles. They would've stayed as just second and third son of previous Lord of Stormlands. So there was no need for Robert to give Renly any titles. There was no reason for Robert to give away to one of his brothers his title of Stormlands' Lord. 

If Robert didn't have a grudge against Stannis, then he would've remained Lord of Stormlands, and didn't given it to Renly. In this case, even if he gave title of Dragonstone's Prince to Stannis, then in case of Robert's death, without any children left as his heirs, then Stannis would have became his successor. He would have inherited after Robert both titles - King of 7K, and Lord Paramount of Stormlands, as older brother and thus next in succession line of their family.

If Robert's intention was to name Stannis as his successor, then he would have given to him title of Stormlands' Lord. Or that title + Prince of Dragonstone. But by giving to him only title of Dragonstone's Prince, which was seat of heir apparent of Targaryen dynasty, that Robert just recently overthrown, showed that this title is a punishment and not a reward. While giving to Renly, who was just a child at that time, a title of Stormlands Lord, wasn't a reward for Renly, it was also a gest to slight Stannis.

Stannis thought so. And even Cersei agreed with it, probably because Robert said something about this to her.

Also Robert made Stannis Master of ships, which will additionally keep him away from King's Landing, stuck on Dragonstone. While to Renly he gave place on Small Council as Master of laws, and thus made him close to throne, and to himself. And also House Baratheon of Dragonstone has nothing to do with succession of Iron Throne. And is a cadet branch of House Baratheon of Storm's End, which makes Stannis subordinate and bannerman of Renly who is Lord of Stormlands.

Stannis received Dragonstone as reward from Robert, for seizing island, near the end of rebellion. But actually it was a 'reward', and not a real reward. Because Robert has sent Stannis to get rid of remaining Targaryens, and not just seize a stupid rock. But Stannis failed, and for thinking that to Robert seizing only Dragonstone, without Targaryens, will be enough, Robert gave this island to Stannis. Basically he exiled Stannis to live on that useless rock. And naming him Prince of Dragonstone is also a mockery, because Robert himself killed the last official Prince of Dragonstone, Rhaegar Targaryen.

Robert denounced Stannis, by giving him a mockery title, that meant nothing to Baratheons, and was legit only for Targaryens, while giving title of real successor to Renly.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe King can't do that, but the head of a family can. Furthermore it happened in ASOIAF and in GOT.

According to their succession laws, after Crown Prince Rhaegar's death, next after him in succession line was his son, Aegon Martell. But Aerys declared Viserys as his heir.

Even though Ramsay Bolton was legitimazed, he became worried when it became known that his stepmother gave birth to a boy, and killed his father. Because even though Ramsay was a firstborn son, and he also became legitimate son, if Rosse wanted, he could have made that baby his heir, overstepping Ramsay.

Yes. But also because Renly was absolutely sure that he is the rightful King of 7K (based on the fact that Robert's children turned out to be products of incest, and not actually his. Which means that, if Robert had no legitimate children, then next King supposed to be his successor, and that's Renly. Because Stannis, was 'demoted' because of his failure.). And it was totally unexpected for him, when Stannis attacked Storm's End. Because Renly was Lord of Stormlands, and Robert's successor. So he didn't expected that Stannis will suddenly claim Iron Throne, or will try to seize Storm's End, and take back his birth rights, to be second in line after Robert.

No, I meant where'd you get the information that Renly was rightful king simply because he had the Storms End, from? When that isnt supported in any of the texts and Dragonstone was the traditional seat of the heir to the king, which Stannis had.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

No, I meant where'd you get the information that Renly was rightful king simply because he had the Storms End, from? When that isnt supported in any of the texts and Dragonstone was the traditional seat of the heir to the king, which Stannis had.

Dragonstone was a traditional seat of the heir to the king, but under Targaryen dynasty, and had nothing to do with throne of King's Landing, after Targaryens were overthrown.

During Robert's reign, Stannis established there a new house - House Baratheon of Dragonstone. This house was a cadet branch of House Baratheon of Storm's End. In hierarchy of Baratheon's family, Storm's End's seat was higher than Dragonstone's seat.

Also when Robert became King of 7K, he also established new house, House Baratheon of King's Landing. That's why he gave his original title, Lord of Stormlands from House Baratheon of Storm's End, to Renly. 

If Robert will die without heirs, then his successor will be Lord from his original house - House Baratheon of Storm's End, and that's Renly. While Stannis was placed below Renly. He may have any claims over Iron Throne, only if Robert will die without legitimate children, and if head of higher house, main branch of Baratheon family, Renly will also die without heirs. Then, and only then Stannis will have a right to make a claim of Iron Throne. But not because he's Prince of Dragonstone (who has no relevance to succession of Iron Throne by family members of House Baratheon of King's Landing, like it was originally between Targaryen King from King's Landing and Targaryen Prince from Dragonstone, who was his successor apparent), but because he's the only remaining relative of Robert Baratheon of House Baratheon of King's Landing, and there's no heir left in main house of Storm's End.

Doesn't matter what kind of significance Dragonstone's seat had during Targaryens' reign, because Targaryens' reign ended. And under Robert's reign, it's just a seat of cadet branch of main branch of Baratheon's of Stormlands.

Hierarchy of Baratheon's family goes like this:

House Baratheon of King's Landing - overlord,

House Baratheon of Storm's End - main branch,

House Baratheon of Dragonstone - cadet branch.

[Dood]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tarly's lands and titles are not crown property. The Red Keep is crown propertyThey can be taken away for only certain offenses, but naming your own heir is hardly something worth mentioning in the same breath.

Well, it's the principle of feudalism : Virtually all land in Westeros is property of the crown (Except maybe the land north of the wall), however the crown only directly manage some of these lands (Crownlands).

The vassals are granted the use of the lands (fief), in exchange for their loyalty, military support and taxes paid to the crown.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Dood said:

Well, it's the principle of feudalism : Virtually all land in Westeros is property of the crown (Except maybe the land north of the wall), however the crown only directly manage some of these lands (Crownlands).

The vassals are granted the use of the lands (fief), in exchange for their loyalty, military support and taxes paid to the crown.

 

Yes ergo it's not crown property. Thanks for agreeing. Crown property is property owned and managed by the crown and its appointees. Land is granted/given to vassals in return for money or feudal service.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it quite clearly is not. This is something Stannis himself acknowledges. And we are told from the first book that many Lords throughout the realm, including Tyrell and Redwyne, would rebel rather than see Stannis as King. 

Wrong. Stannis initially got zero support from the Stormlords until he murdered his brother. 

In Stannis' own words; "He made me a poor envoy in any case. The storm lords will not rise for me. It seems they do not like me, and the justice of my cause means nothing to them. The cravenly ones will sit behind their walls waiting to see how the wind rises and who is likely to triumph. The bold ones have already declared for Renly. For Renly!" He spat out the name like poison on his tongue.

And GRRM mentions how the 20k that rode with Renly were mostly Stormlords: Most of the actual storm lords went with Renly. They were horsed, after all -- knights and high lords -- and they wanted a share of the glory of smashing Stannis. 

And later he points out the fickleness of the men he gained from Renly:"Aye, I have a tail of traitors, your nose does not deceive you. My lords bannermen are inconstant even in their treasons. I need them, but you should know how it sickens me to pardon such as these when I have punished better men for lesser crimes. You have every right to reproach me, Ser Davos."

Many of whom abandon Stannis as soon as they see Renly again: 

"Is it true that Stannis was put to rout by Renly's ghost?"

Bronn smiled thinly. "From the winch towers, all we saw was banners in the mud and men throwing down their spears to run, but there's hundreds in the pot shops and brothels who'll tell you how they saw Lord Renly kill this one or that one. Most of Stannis's host had been Renly's to start, and they went right back over at the sight of him in that shiny green armor."

 

The only Stormland House who was loyal to Stannis was Davos, an insignificant petty lord who was Stannis' vassal to begin with. 

 

Not that we know of. We don't know which House they were sworn to. And for the most case you are referring to knights, not actual Lords. House Royce did not support Renly despite one of Yohn's sons being amongst Renly's ranks. 

But originally with Renly. In fact there is a Florent child named after Renly. 

Does this homophobic bullshit never end with some of you Stannis fans? Can you really not get past the fact that Renly was gay?

Renly's popularity had little to do with him being gay any more than Robert's popularity had to do with him being promiscuous. 

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best?

Stannis himself even points out the difference between himself and his brothers; "Davos would tell you different," Stannis said. "Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once lovedRobert . . . and as they have never loved me."

And it is not just the Reach and Stormlords who loved him; In truth, Renly Baratheon did not frighten Tyrion half so much as his brother Stannis did. Renly was beloved of the commons, but he had never before led men in war.

 

The who?

Actually bullshit. 

He actually did not.

 

• His first option was that Cersei be removed, Joffrey crowned and Ned serve as Regent. That is what he wanted Ned to do
• Ned refuses, Renly tells him their lives will be in danger
• Renly leaves the capital only to hear that Ned is imprisoned, this would only confirm Renly's fears about Cersei
• Cersei gives orders that a number of Lords, included Renly, come to the capital and swear fealty or lose their lands
• Renly becomes King for two reasons, ambition and a fear of his life

Renly was actively conspiring against Cersei in his conversation with Ned, it was Ned who was refusing Renly's plans for Cersei. The next thing Renly knows is that Ned is being arrested. Why would he assume he was safe when Ned was not?

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with Renly knowing? Renly does not know that it was the Lannisters who threw Bran from the tower so what does this have to do with the conversation?

 

I agree. I doubt it would have happened, but that does not change the fact that both Cersei and Renly thought it a possibility so it is hardly evidence that Renly knew. 

 

The bit about Tyrells and Redwynes comes from anti-Stannis sources: Varys' words to Eddard and Viserys' daydreaming.

The very fact that "the cautious ones" sat back and waited for the winner speaks volumes of the low amount of respect Renly was getting in his own homeland. They were technically his vassals and, were he truly a popular reader, he would have no trouble in rousing all of them.

Let's say an inconvenient truth: out of those 20k cavalry, 16000 joined Stannis and they were from the Stormlands Houses that had fought for Renly (Caron, Connngton, Errol, Estermont, Morrigen) but also from the Reach Houses Florent (2000 mean alone), Willum, Varner, Mullendore, Fossoway (both branches). If any of the other Reach Houses had 1000 cavalry with it (after all, Reach fields the most knights, being the home of chivalry), at least 7000 of them are Reachmen and 9000 are Stormlanders.

There is no Florent child named Renly, but a Norcross one.

My antipathy for Renly has nothing to do with his sexuality. 

The Foxgloves are sworn to the Farmans of Fair Isle.

I was referring to his conspiracy to install Margaery as Queen.