Jon is not in the line of succession

[Pikachu101]

4 hours ago, Ser Maverick said:

I'd somewhat agree, although I trust that George wouldn't have done it unless there was some massive way it impacts the story. At the same time, I struggle to picture Jon's story having ended like that. Since reading ADwD, I just assumed that Jon actually survives his wounds, but I think George has recently confirmed that he dies, so what do I know.

Jon is the Westerosi version of Jesus so this his reserructing from the dead 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

13 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Yes they will because the Manderlys know Rickon's alive and Littlefinger's arranging a marriage to Harry for Sansa, the North isn't going to bend the knee to a Snow when two Starks are still alive and kicking. 

Manderly and Glover know Rickon is alive, and so do the Lockes and the Flints. And the Liddles know that Bran is still alive and maybe they shared that information with the Wulls and the Norreys. But for whatever reason, they're not talking.

Sansa's marriage to Harry Hardyng wouldn't be legal because she would still be married to Tyrion. And Littlefinger can crown her queen, I don't think it will mean anything to the northmen. It's Robb they bent the knee to and Robb took Sansa out of the line of succession and may have put Jon in it.

This is an almost identical dilemma we have with what Aerys did with Aegon for reasons unknown. 

In the end, the northmen might decide that Rickon is the best option because they wouldn't exactly be going against Robb's wishes. Jon might end up being regent, though, the one making all the decisions for Winterfell and the north. I think they will easily accept him as a leader.

And I'll say it again, the northmen will not care that Jon is a bastard. Norrey and Flint sure as hell don't seem to care. Alys Karstark sure as hell didn't seem to care when she went for Jon's protection and appealed to him as the son of Ned Stark. 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

And I'll say it again, the northmen will not care that Jon is a bastard. Norrey and Flint sure as hell don't seem to care. Alys Karstark sure as hell didn't seem to care when she went for Jon's protection and appealed to him as the son of Ned Stark. 

No one in the North who matters will care one fig about it. 

[Pikachu101]

20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sansa's marriage to Harry Hardyng wouldn't be legal because she would still be married to Tyrion.

An annulment is possible if the marriage was never consumated.

20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's Robb they bent the knee to and Robb took Sansa out of the line of succession and may have put Jon in it.

Under the premise that she was under Lannister captivity, it wouldn't matter anyway because Jon already made it clear to Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jon might end up being regent

I think Manderly's planning on making himself regent, also Jon's a member of the NW so he can't be regent. 

20 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

And I'll say it again, the northmen will not care that Jon is a bastard. Norrey and Flint sure as hell don't seem to care. Alys Karstark sure as hell didn't seem to care when she went for Jon's protection and appealed to him as the son of Ned Stark.

Trusting Jon is not the same as crowning him.

There's no point arguing about this; (1) this thread is about Jon's legitimacy for the Taragryen line, and (2) he would never take what rightfully belongs to his trueborn siblings. 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

An annulment is possible if the marriage was never consumated.

True. But proving it wasn't might be tricky. 

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Under the premise that she was under Lannister captivity, it wouldn't matter anyway because Jon already made it clear to Stannis that Winterfell belongs to Sansa.

No, Robb excluded Sansa because legally Sansa is a Lannister.

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”

 

“One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”

 

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I think Manderly's planning on making himself regent, also Jon's a member of the NW so he can't be regent. 

Could be. Or not. We don't have enough info at this point to be sure of any of this. 

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Trusting Jon is not the same as crowning him.

I agree. But it's a step in the right direction, so to speak. The northmen are more likely to crown someone they trust than someone they don't. 

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

There's no point arguing about this; (1) this thread is about Jon's legitimacy for the Taragryen line, and (2) he would never take what rightfully belongs to his trueborn siblings. 

Not his legitimacy but whether he is in the line of succession or not. There's been a lot of discussion on his possible legitimacy but that's a separate issue. And irt his legitimacy, again, there's simply no way of knowing w/ what we know so far. As @Lyanna<3Rhaegar said above, it's certainly possible. 

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Rhaegar's family was permanently disinherited and lost their place in the line of succession when Prince Viserys became King Viserys III.   King Aerys II saw the Starks as his enemies.  He would close off any chances of Lyanna's child from ever putting its butt on the throne.  There is no way Aerys would have left any loop holes. 

A whole lot of insubstantiated claims here.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Sansa's marriage to Harry Hardyng wouldn't be legal because she would still be married to Tyrion. And Littlefinger can crown her queen, I don't think it will mean anything to the northmen. It's Robb they bent the knee to and Robb took Sansa out of the line of succession and may have put Jon in it.

The marriage wouldn't be considered valid on the basis of non-consumption, though.

[Pikachu101]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, Robb excluded Sansa because legally Sansa is a Lannister.

I’ve already explained that if a marriage isn’t consummated it can be legally annulled, in fact according to asoiaf wiki that’s the only way a marriage can be broken. Seeing as Littlefinger has already made the engagement public I’m going to assume that’s his plan. 

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The northmen are more likely to crown someone they trust than someone they don't. 

Actually they’re more likely to crown Eddard Stark’s trueborn son Rickon, and Jon would make sure they do because he’s not going to steal what rightfully belongs to his brother. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I’ve already explained that if a marriage isn’t consummated it can be legally annulled, in fact according to asoiaf wiki that’s the only way a marriage can be broken. Seeing as Littlefinger has already made the engagement public I’m going to assume that’s his plan. 

Yes, you just didn't explain how to prove it wasn't consummated. Sansa's word? Both Sansa and Tyrion's word? Mind you, I'm sure it will be annulled eventually. 

9 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Actually they’re more likely to crown Eddard Stark’s trueborn son Rickon, and Jon would make sure they do because he’s not going to steal what rightfully belongs to his brother. 

One of several wrenches in the works is the when. Rickon may not turn up until a bit later, when the north already will have had to unite under one leader. I agree that Jon would never usurp any of his cousins' birthrights. 

[SunfyreTheGolden]

On 14.11.2017 at 7:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard.

Not exactly. You can marry a lot of women at the same time. And when u have children from all of them who are gonna be a bastard? All of them or none of them? Simply none of them.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The marriage wouldn't be considered valid on the basis of non-consumption, though.

I'm sure the marriage will be annulled at some point, but as it stands right now, she is married to Tyrion. If she marries Harry while she is married to Tyrion, then the marriage will not be valid. 

It always comes back to marriages, doesn't it? I swear, it's the worst thing ever.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

When all is said and done, I don't think anyone will care whether he is a bastard or not. 

I'd think that people will especially fall in line when he is resurrected.

They absolutely will care.  It's not just a social label.  There are legal implications involved.  Inheritance and the right to titles hinge on someone's legal status of legitimate or bastard.  Recall how careful Catelyn was to make sure Jon stays a bastard.  Catelyn is not the only one who feel this way about bastards and it's more than social snobbism.  There are very practical reasons for labeling bastards and making sure they have no rights to inherit.  It secures the inheritance of the children produced within the marriage and it allows their social system to function smoothly.  

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

No, he's not. 

He has likely entered Ghost who has been directly associated to the old gods. There's a massive ice structure woven with old magics and spells, and there's a fire priestess whose magic is made powerful by the magic of the Wall, just waiting for when Jon needs her. This is going to be Jon's own magical moment.

We should discuss this again when Winds of Winter comes out in a bagillion years.

[kissdbyfire]

34 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

This idea was born when wishful thinking and reading comprehension fail went out and got totally hammered together. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

’ve already explained that if a marriage isn’t consummated it can be legally annulled, in fact according to asoiaf wiki that’s the only way a marriage can be broken. Seeing as Littlefinger has already made the engagement public I’m going to assume that’s his plan. 

Except we know for a fact there are other ways a marriage can be broken else Tyrion would still be married to Tysha no? That marriage was definitely consimated with plenty of witnesses. 

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

One of several wrenches in the works is the when. Rickon may not turn up until a bit later, when the north already will have had to unite under one leader. I agree that Jon would never usurp any of his cousins' birthrights. 

Exactly. Rickon is thought to be dead. If the northern lords don't realize he is alive they would honor Robb's wishes. 

 

28 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They absolutely will care.  It's not just a social label.  There are legal implications involved.  Inheritance and the right to titles hinge on someone's legal status of legitimate or bastard.  Recall how careful Catelyn was to make sure Jon stays a bastard.  Catelyn is not the only one who feel this way about bastards and it's more than social snobbism.  There are very practical reasons for labeling bastards and making sure they have no rights to inherit.  It secures the inheritance of the children produced within the marriage and it allows their social system to function smoothly.  

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

I agree but does Robb naming him his heir legitimize him as well? I can't remember if Robb specifically said he was legitimazing him also. At any rate I would think so as he believes Jon is the only chance to carry on the Stark name. 

I disagree with the only way Jon is coming back is as a wight. First & foremost there are no others this side of the wall to wightify him. It would make more sense for him to stay dead than to return as a mindless wight only to be killed again. If Jon is dead & doesn't remain that way I think he will be resurrected via Mel, LSH, or Thoros breathing the fire of life into him. Not to say he may not lose some of his self like Beric or much of his self like LSH. 

[The Fattest Leech]

36 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They absolutely will care.  It's not just a social label.  There are legal implications involved.  Inheritance and the right to titles hinge on someone's legal status of legitimate or bastard.  Recall how careful Catelyn was to make sure Jon stays a bastard.  Catelyn is not the only one who feel this way about bastards and it's more than social snobbism.  There are very practical reasons for labeling bastards and making sure they have no rights to inherit.  It secures the inheritance of the children produced within the marriage and it allows their social system to function smoothly.  

People will care about who saves them from imminent, widespread, nipple chaffing cold and death- that is it. This whole concept of "you are nothing unless you have a pedigree" is about to be thrown to the gator eating bog dwellers for good.

36 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"--- said GRRM in interviews.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Except we know for a fact there are other ways a marriage can be broken else Tyrion would still be married to Tysha no? That marriage was definitely consimated with plenty of witnesses. 

 

Exactly. Rickon is thought to be dead. If the northern lords don't realize he is alive they would honor Robb's wishes. 

 

I agree but does Robb naming him his heir legitimize him as well? I can't remember if Robb specifically said he was legitimazing him also. At any rate I would think so as he believes Jon is the only chance to carry on the Stark name. 

I disagree with the only way Jon is coming back is as a wight. First & foremost there are no others this side of the wall to wightify him. It would make more sense for him to stay dead than to return as a mindless wight only to be killed again. If Jon is dead & doesn't remain that way I think he will be resurrected via Mel, LSH, or Thoros breathing the fire of life into him. Not to say he may not lose some of his self like Beric or much of his self like LSH. 

The idea here is that Robb, as KitN, first legitimises Jon and then names him his heir. 

[Dragonsbone]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

People will care about who saves them from imminent, widespread, nipple chaffing cold and death- that is it. This whole concept of "you are nothing unless you have a pedigree" is about to be thrown to the gator eating bog dwellers for good.

"Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"--- said GRRM in interviews.

To be fair, not that I agree with it, but George has also given several other interviews lately, where he kind of gives some stuff away if you read carefully enough. 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

To be fair, not that I agree with it, but George has also given several other interviews lately, where he kind of gives some stuff away if you read carefully enough. 

You mean the interview where he is specifically asked about the show, and how things on the show will go with Jon??? The interviewer literally asked "Jon on the show". That doesn't count for the real book canon.

And let's not upset nature here and start bringing the abomination into book discussion. One has nothing to do with the other in a long time.

[Pikachu101]

25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That marriage was definitely consimated with plenty of witnesses.

There were no witnesses, the wedding was performed by a drunken Septon with pigs as witnesses. Besides you can’t compare Sansa to Tysha, one was a nobody whilst the other is a noblewoman whose marriage was witnessed by every noble in King’s Lanfing therefore it has to be declared annulled rather than simply dismissed. Obviously it can be done because Tyrion never slept with her but at the same time doesn’t mean Littlefinger can do a Tywin and just pretend Sansa was never married. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, you just didn't explain how to prove it wasn't consummated. Sansa's word? Both Sansa and Tyrion's word? Mind you, I'm sure it will be annulled eventually. 

One of several wrenches in the works is the when. Rickon may not turn up until a bit later, when the north already will have had to unite under one leader. I agree that Jon would never usurp any of his cousins' birthrights. 

Unless Sansa sleeps with someone meanwhile, her maidenhead can be checked, I guess?

50 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They absolutely will care.  It's not just a social label.  There are legal implications involved.  Inheritance and the right to titles hinge on someone's legal status of legitimate or bastard.  Recall how careful Catelyn was to make sure Jon stays a bastard.  Catelyn is not the only one who feel this way about bastards and it's more than social snobbism.  There are very practical reasons for labeling bastards and making sure they have no rights to inherit.  It secures the inheritance of the children produced within the marriage and it allows their social system to function smoothly.  

And the moment there are no legitimate heirs, bastards come into play. Lord Hornwood's for example.

50 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The only way Jon is coming back from death is via wightification.  He's coming back as a wight.

Lol.