Non Believers: I'm What's Called a Pessimist

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Looks like The Mance beat me to the punch, but this statement demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of what bullying is.  Like, seriously, have you ever been in a group of friends?  You don't think saying "hey, being a Mormon is ridiculous and makes you an idiot" is bullying?

It can certainly be bullying in a sense, but is it not also necessary? For example, last night I was chatting with an ex on Facebook about politics and her religious beliefs came out. I encouraged her to think outside the box and her world view because she could be wrong, and her response was to say that I had committed a mortal sin by encouraging to question her god and that meant I would burn in hell. What do you do with that other than bully the hell out of the person for their moronic world view?

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I wouldn't be surprised if intellectual bullying occurs sometimes by a small minority of jerks seeking social dominance, but that is nothing compared to evangelism, religious law, etc.  And that's the nature of bullying rather than the nature of atheism.

Yes, in the aggregate this is still certainly correct.  Doesn't justify it though.

8 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

If anyone felt intellectually bullied in this thread, for example by my description of theism as an intellectual and/or emotional immaturity, then I'm afraid you cannot claim bullying when you knowingly enter a discussion about unbelief which will contain impersonal contrasts between belief and unbelief. 

I was not referring to your posts, at least from what I can recall.  Like you said, speaking in generalities is different, and I'm pretty sure I called organized religion dumb about four times in one post myself.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It can certainly be bullying in a sense, but is it not also necessary? For example, last night I was chatting with an ex on Facebook about politics and her religious beliefs came out. I encouraged her to think outside the box and her world view because she could be wrong, and her response was to say that I had committed a mortal sin by encouraging to question her god and that meant I would burn in hell. What do you do with that other than bully the hell out of the person for their moronic world view?

Well, that seems to be a different situation.  If someone uses their faith to judge you I have no problem using logic, even insulting logic, to judge them right back.  What I'm referring to is unprovoked attacking of a 27 year old woman that goes out of her way not to judge anyone and only mentions her religion when asked/the topic is raised.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, that seems to be a different situation.  If someone uses their faith to judge you I have no problem using logic, even insulting logic, to judge them right back.  What I'm referring to is unprovoked attacking of a 27 year old woman that goes out of her way not to judge anyone and only mentions her religion when asked/the topic is raised.

What do you think is more common, the person you described being bullied by non-believers or non-believers being bullied by Bible thumpers? Because I absolutely believe it’s the latter and I’m sick and tired of being told that I have to respect people’s religious views while at the same time society still allowing them to attack mine without any penalty. I mean, we had multiple candidates in the Republican primary say that you cannot be a good and moral person if you don’t believe in god and Jesus and they were celebrated for expressing those views. If I came out and said you can’t be a good and moral person if you don’t reject made up stone age dogma I would get crucified (pun intended).

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What do you think is more common, the person you described being bullied by non-believers or non-believers being bullied by Bible thumpers?

As I mentioned in my response to Iskaral, it is most certainly the latter in the aggregate.  I'm just speaking from my own experience - which has almost entirely been in a very liberal (and subsequently primarily atheist, as well as plenty of reform jews growing up) environment since birth.  That's probably why I'm as "centrist" as some think of me - it's my only way to rebel!

[TrueMetis]

5 hours ago, The Mance said:

The truth of a statement doesn't make it not bullying.  A message can be both true and bullying because of tone and context.

Well yes, literally anything can be bullying in the right tone and context. So saying "homeopathy is idiotic and you're an idiot for believing it." is not bullying inofitself, anymore than saying "I'm not touching you" is. But both can be in the right context.

So again, when I tell a homeopath that they're an idiot for believing that water can cure their cancer I'm not bullying. Because I haven't done the other things that make it bullying. Unless your assuming when I say that that I go around harassing people.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

As I mentioned in my response to Iskaral, it is most certainly the latter in the aggregate.  I'm just speaking from my own experience - which has almost entirely been in a very liberal (and subsequently primarily atheist, as well as plenty of reform jews growing up) environment since birth.  That's probably why I'm as "centrist" as some think of me - it's my only way to rebel!

Idk if you’re talking about now or throughout your life, but if it’s the former I’d guess that has more to do with you teaching college level poli sci courses than anything else.

[The Mance]

9 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Well yes, literally anything can be bullying in the right tone and context.

Regardless of how objectively true it is?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It can certainly be bullying in a sense, but is it not also necessary? For example, last night I was chatting with an ex on Facebook about politics and her religious beliefs came out. I encouraged her to think outside the box and her world view because she could be wrong, and her response was to say that I had committed a mortal sin by encouraging to question her god and that meant I would burn in hell. What do you do with that other than bully the hell out of the person for their moronic world view?

In that instance? You laugh. And shake your head. Any conversation past that point is a waste of oxygen.

 

/And thank the void that this person is your "ex".

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk if you’re talking about now or throughout your life, but if it’s the former I’d guess that has more to do with you teaching college level poli sci courses than anything else.

Both, but yeah, prepping political material that must be palatable to all students certainly lends itself to centrism.

[TrueMetis]

14 minutes ago, The Mance said:

Regardless of how objectively true it is?

Yes. Fleep Florp Floop could be bullying the right context. The only thing that makes something bullying is context, not what was said.

So again, when I tell a homeopath that they're an idiot for believing that water can cure their cancer I'm not bullying. Because the sentence in-of-itself is not bullying, because what makes bullying isn't what is being said and I'm not doing the other things that make it bullying.

ETA: I think the issue here is you think I said "I'm telling the truth, therefore it's not bullying" when I actually said "I'm not bulling, I'm just telling the truth" these do not mean the same thing.

[The Mance]

17 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

ETA: I think the issue here is you think I said "I'm telling the truth, therefore it's not bullying" when I actually said "I'm not bulling, I'm just telling the truth" these do not mean the same thing.

Ok, well that's a legitimate, though thin, distinction that was not at all clear from your initial statement.

[DMC]

48 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

So saying "homeopathy is idiotic and your an idiot for believing it." is not bullying inofitself,

It may not be bullying, but it's certainly bad grammar.  

Anyway, your point about context is a large part of what I've been saying from the get-go, so I obviously agree.

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

What do you think is more common, the person you described being bullied by non-believers or non-believers being bullied by Bible thumpers? Because I absolutely believe it’s the latter and I’m sick and tired of being told that I have to respect people’s religious views while at the same time society still allowing them to attack mine without any penalty. I mean, we had multiple candidates in the Republican primary say that you cannot be a good and moral person if you don’t believe in god and Jesus and they were celebrated for expressing those views. If I came out and said you can’t be a good and moral person if you don’t reject made up stone age dogma I would get crucified (pun intended).

Bravo, Bravo, this is a wonderful and thoughtful post.

The double standard sickens me as well. Unfortunately it permeates all through American culture, its like a sickness that has a deathgrip on a large swath of the country.

[mankytoes]

I live near the UK home of Scientology, and I've always found it unfair the way it seems totally socially acceptable to mock them, in a way people never would Christians or Muslims.

[Eggegg]

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I live near the UK home of Scientology, and I've always found it unfair the way it seems totally socially acceptable to mock them, in a way people never would Christians or Muslims.

I mean.. come on.. its Scientologists! Xenu!

[mankytoes]

43 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I mean.. come on.. its Scientologists! Xenu!

Catholics literally think that when you eat the cracker, it turns into Jesus' body. They literally think that. I have never heard anything from any religion more crazy than that.

And if you're talking about them being bad instead of crazy, they really haven't killed that many people compared with the big guys. And Muhammed did marry a nine year old.

[Rippounet]

56 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I live near the UK home of Scientology, and I've always found it unfair the way it seems totally socially acceptable to mock them, in a way people never would Christians or Muslims.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/657/039/7fa.jpg

[Stubby]

A belief is just an idea that is unsupported by evidence.  It is therefore impossible to insult a belief. If a person holds to such a belief, and the idea is strongly criticised, it is not the person being attacked, but the idea.  That is a distinction that many believers cannot separate in their minds.

[Altherion]

18 hours ago, Stubby said:

All of which is very convenient reasoning, when pre-judging that there needs to be a god.

None of this makes any sense until there is some explanation of why there needs to be a god.

Because it would be more amusing that way? As IheartIheartTesla says, if one takes the universe a tiny bit of time after the Big Bang as a given, there is no real need for a God... but where's the fun in that? There is some circumstantial evidence in the laws of nature as we currently understand them for intelligent influence on said laws, but it can have other causes and so is not proof. Likewise, there are some decent arguments from logic alone (see, for example, Bostrom's simulation argument), but, as far as anyone can tell, they are not verifiable.

As an aside, it's rather sad that the debates regarding religion are overwhelmingly focused on the ancient stuff and not on ideas from people who have access to modern science and philosophy.

8 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Well yes, literally anything can be bullying in the right tone and context. So saying "homeopathy is idiotic and you're an idiot for believing it." is not bullying inofitself, anymore than saying "I'm not touching you" is. But both can be in the right context.

So again, when I tell a homeopath that they're an idiot for believing that water can cure their cancer I'm not bullying. Because I haven't done the other things that make it bullying. Unless your assuming when I say that that I go around harassing people.

Somebody being called an idiot is a fairly robust indicator of bullying taking place. It's not always the case because this word can be used playfully between close friends or relatives, but in the context you are describing, your approach almost certainly amounts to bullying. It is possible to point out that homeopathy makes no sense without the ad hominem attack. It's even worse to apply this methodology to religion because, unlike with homeopathy, almost any non-trivial claim regarding religion is completely unverifiable.