Tyrions Fate if Jamie Kept his Sword Hand

[Warren of Skagos]

If jamie remained intact all the way to KL, what would be different? Would jamie still change for the better considering he keeps he fighting ability. Would jamie champion for tyrion, if he did would cersei still choose gregor, if jamie fought gregor who wins. Anything else that comes to mind and/or how events would play out.

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Warren of Skagos said:

If jamie remained intact all the way to KL, what would be different? Would jamie still change for the better considering he keeps he fighting ability. Would jamie champion for tyrion, if he did would cersei still choose gregor, if jamie fought gregor who wins. Anything else that comes to mind and/or how events would play out.

I believe Jamie losing his hand was for the best in terms of finding "himself" and being less of a dick head to everyone including Brienne of Tarth which there relationship is what changed Jamie the most IMO. 

If Jamie kept his hand and Tyrion asked him to champion for him in Joffreys murder trial I believe he does fight for Tyrion since Tywin was present I believe he would tell Ser Gregor to leave at once before Cersie can command him to be her champion. If Jamie and the mountain did fight the mountain wins by a hair, only reason Oberyn was winning was because he was using a long spear which takes away Gregors height and reach advantage. 

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I believe Jamie losing his hand was for the best in terms of finding "himself" and being less of a dick head to everyone including Brienne of Tarth which there relationship is what changed Jamie the most IMO. 

If Jamie kept his hand and Tyrion asked him to champion for him in Joffreys murder trial I believe he does fight for Tyrion since Tywin was present I believe he would tell Ser Gregor to leave at once before Cersie can command him to be her champion. If Jamie and the mountain did fight the mountain wins by a hair, only reason Oberyn was winning was because he was using a long spear which takes away Gregors height and reach advantage. 

Pretty much. I imagine if Jaime had been there he would have been fighting Tom the Fisherman's son from Fleabottom though.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I don't like these what-ifs typically because the book is written the way the author intended, so there is no real alternative to consider.  That being said I definitely believe that Jaime would have been Tyrion's champion and, had he been fighting Ser Gregor, Jaime would have won.  But no way does Tywin let Ser Gregor fight, in fact I think he prevents the trial by combat from happening by negotiating with Tyrion to have Sansa formally accused on her own with Tyrion's testimony (lying).

[Warren of Skagos]

This for sure

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:21 AM, Warren of Skagos said:

If jamie remained intact all the way to KL, what would be different? Would jamie still change for the better considering he keeps he fighting ability. Would jamie champion for tyrion, if he did would cersei still choose gregor, if jamie fought gregor who wins. Anything else that comes to mind and/or how events would play out.

nothing would change. Jamie is the LC of the kingsguard. He would not be allowed to defend his brother  

[ChuckPunch]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

nothing would change. Jamie is the LC of the kingsguard. He would not be allowed to defend his brother  

I think Jamie would retire the KG to champion Tyrion. His character changes from losing his hand did not impact how he treats Tyrion and from what we can see the two brothers are very loyal to each other. Barristan's dismissal sets a precedent for KG members leaving before their death.

If Kingsguard cannot champion against Cersei's accusations, Tywin may actually subtly encourage Jaime to quit the KG (for Tywins own purposes) and then ensure Cersei picks Ser Boros or one of the Kettleblacks. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

I think Jamie would retire the KG to champion Tyrion. His character changes from losing his hand did not impact how he treats Tyrion and from what we can see the two brothers are very loyal to each other. Barristan's dismissal sets a precedent for KG members leaving before their death.

If Kingsguard cannot champion against Cersei's accusations, Tywin may actually subtly encourage Jaime to quit the KG (for Tywins own purposes) and then ensure Cersei picks Ser Boros or one of the Kettleblacks. 

That is very far from the character that is written 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

There in lies a genius move that Tywin would make. In order for Jaime to fight for Tyrion he'd have to leave the Kingsguard as he'd be fighting against the Crown. The only way Jaime can fight for Tyrion is by becoming the heir to Casterly Rock. Gregor would have never fought against Tyrion's champion if Tywin told him not too. Gregor was Tywin's man first before Cersei's and is under no obligation to fight for the Crown like a Kingsguard brother would be. Trant or someone else would fight two handed Jaime and lose and Tyrion would be exiled to Essos. Jaime is sent to Casterly Rock to await whichever wife Tywin picks for him to marry, Cersei is sent off to marry a Lord far away. Finally Tywin raises Tommen to be the King he wants him to be without the influence of either of his parents.

Or, as a last resort, Cersei seduces Gregor to be her champion by sleeping with him. Jaime hears about the affair from Varys and goes full on "Robert Baratheon you stole my woman-Demon of the Trident" mode all over The Mountain with his new VS sword. Songs are made about the tragic love affair. "The Lion that climbed the Mountain, It's about the ride not what's on the other side"
 

[LynnS]

I can't imagine what would have happened.  That he did lose his sword hand and basically his identity and self-worth along with it; leaves him shattered and vulnerable. The question is how will he be re-made.  I fancy that Lady Stoneheart will send him off to the Wall for adventures with Un-Jon and that Jaimie will become the proverbial 'shield' in the trio of Sword, Shield and Horn of the Night's Watch.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

   

[Stormking902]

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

There in lies a genius move that Tywin would make. In order for Jaime to fight for Tyrion he'd have to leave the Kingsguard as he'd be fighting against the Crown. The only way Jaime can fight for Tyrion is by becoming the heir to Casterly Rock. Gregor would have never fought against Tyrion's champion if Tywin told him not too. Gregor was Tywin's man first before Cersei's and is under no obligation to fight for the Crown like a Kingsguard brother would be. Trant or someone else would fight two handed Jaime and lose and Tyrion would be exiled to Essos. Jaime is sent to Casterly Rock to await whichever wife Tywin picks for him to marry, Cersei is sent off to marry a Lord far away. Finally Tywin raises Tommen to be the King he wants him to be without the influence of either of his parents.

Or, as a last resort, Cersei seduces Gregor to be her champion by sleeping with him. Jaime hears about the affair from Varys and goes full on "Robert Baratheon you stole my woman-Demon of the Trident" mode all over The Mountain with his new VS sword. Songs are made about the tragic love affair. "The Lion that climbed the Mountain, It's about the ride not what's on the other side"
 

Gregor is a mad man but he isnt insane enough to sleep with Cersie aka Tywins daughter that spells head on pike very fast, lands ceased and the name Clegane lost for ever. 

[ChuckPunch]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is very far from the character that is written 

Of the three characters I listed making different choices, which character are you referring to and why? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

One thing about Jaime is that he's always loved Tyrion, and probably would have believed him if Tyrion swore that he hadn't poisoned Joffrey. The question would be if a Kingsguard could defend someone against the queen. If so, it is possible that Jaime would have been his champion against the Mountain. He would, after all, still have his sword hand.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

Of the three characters I listed making different choices, which character are you referring to and why? 

Jamie.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Gregor is a mad man but he isnt insane enough to sleep with Cersie aka Tywins daughter that spells head on pike very fast, lands ceased and the name Clegane lost for ever. 

If were talking prime Cersei I still think Gregor might take the chance. Lancel slept with Cersei despite Tywin being alive and Jaime having two hands. 

[ChuckPunch]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jamie.

Alright. So what exactly did I say he'd do that's out of character?

Defend his brother? Retire from KG? He loves his brother and loathes the white cloak.

[Stormking902]

13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If were talking prime Cersei I still think Gregor might take the chance. Lancel slept with Cersei despite Tywin being alive and Jaime having two hands. 

Lancel is Tywins nephew and Kevins son, even if caught Tywin wouldnt have Lancels head on a pike he would do everything in his power to hide what has happened and probably send Lancel away to Essos somewhere or at the very least back to the Westerlands. 

Kevin would never forgive Tywin if he had Lancel killed, Tywin loves Kevin very much so wouldnt wanna ruin another relationship with another one of his brothers. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

Alright. So what exactly did I say he'd do that's out of character?

Defend his brother? Retire from KG? He loves his brother and loathes the white cloak.

the whole point of his arc is he wants to regain his honor by doing his duty as LC of hte guard. His father asks him to retire and he says no. 
He does not loathe the white cloak. He loves it. What he loathes is that he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but he became the smiling knight instead. So retiring, going against the cloak and fighting against the crown ie defending the accused killer of the king is completely out of character 

 

[ChuckPunch]

30 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the whole point of his arc is he wants to regain his honor by doing his duty as LC of hte guard. His father asks him to retire and he says no. 
He does not loathe the white cloak. He loves it. What he loathes is that he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but he became the smiling knight instead. So retiring, going against the cloak and fighting against the crown ie defending the accused killer of the king is completely out of character 

 

Loves it eh?

A Storm of Swords; Jaime II - "It was the white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."

A Storm of Swords; Jaime II - "The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well."

A Storm of Swords; Jaime VI - That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

A Storm of Swords; Jaime VI - Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he'd ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late.

It certainly doesn't seem like Jaime likes the cloak very much to me. And as a final touch, Robb mentions the precedent of Kingsguard and Nights Watch members having the option to leave their post with high enough authority demanding it.

A Storm of Swords; Catelyn V - "So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

Loves it eh?

A Storm of Swords; Jaime II - "It was the white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."

A Storm of Swords; Jaime II - "The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well."

A Storm of Swords; Jaime VI - That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

A Storm of Swords; Jaime VI - Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he'd ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late.

It certainly doesn't seem like Jaime likes the cloak very much to me. And as a final touch, Robb mentions the precedent of Kingsguard and Nights Watch members having the option to leave their post with high enough authority demanding it.

A Storm of Swords; Catelyn V - "So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."

Yes, and all of that was before his redemption arc started. Next .....