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Werthead

UK Politics: Winter of Discontent

412 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, Werthead said:

If we have 17 million people retiring over the next twenty years - a huge number - plus millions more living to extreme old age beyond that, then we need several tens of millions of people in work to sustain them. The 30 million odd who will be in work (although six million plus of them will be in very low-paid gig economy, zero-hours or minimum wage jobs and won't be contributing much to alleviate that) during that time will not remotely cut it. Since the birthrate has not provided a "native" solution and since the economy is likely to produce fewer and fewer jobs with each successive generation over the next decades, mass immigration was one of the few working solutions, despite the problems that raised with infrastructure and the long-term problems it would run into with a declining job production rate.

If Brexiteers want to square this circle, it would require a radical and dramatic shift in Britain's economic structure. But for some reason they have not addressed this problem and how it will affect future prosperity.

Agree that the demographic timebomb is something that needs to be addressed, and immigration has to be part of that. There will need to also be a number of probably very unpopular decisions made in the future as well, regarding increasing the pension age, less money spent on the NHS etc. 

 

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Eggegg,

18 hours ago, Eggegg said:

It would be extremely naive of any politician to suppose that you can allow large scale immigration into a country in a very small amount of time and not expect that the native population would feel disgruntled and uneasy about it. 

It was made worse by instead of listening to people’s fears , anyone complaining was labelled a racist or xenophobic, only adding to the sense of injustice and lack of control. 

It all could easily have been avoided had there been some sort of control on the influx of people, limits on numbers or at the very least not allowing people in at the earliest opportunity. But that is where we are now, and the labour gov has to take its share of the blame.

Emphasis mine.  The implicit assumption here is that there was zero control on the influx of people.  Will you please substantiate this assertion?  It just runs contrary to experience and common sense, and is therefore an extraordinary claim.

I don't mean to deny that the Labour government has to take some blame.  Leadership cannot, by definition, escape blame for what happens politically while they are in office, or in the aftermath of their decisions.  That's fair.  Yet, by whom, and with what honeyed words do we suppose the monster of these people's irrational fears were ever going to be tamed?  The British people may ordinarily be lovely, fair-minded, charitable, etc.  Until this conversation, I was prepared to accept that there were principally libertarian, "let's be ruled by Britons alone" sort of attitude underpinning Brexit.  Yet, you posited immigration was a principal issue, and insofar as that is accurate, then it was an ugly overreaction, and one is forced to wonder how long that instinct should be coddled.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Mord said:

Eggegg,

Emphasis mine.  The implicit assumption here is that there was zero control on the influx of people.  Will you please substantiate this assertion?  It just runs contrary to experience and common sense, and is therefore an extraordinary claim.

I don't mean to deny that the Labour government has to take some blame.  Leadership cannot, by definition, escape blame for what happens politically while they are in office, or in the aftermath of their decisions.  That's fair.  Yet, by whom, and with what honeyed words do we suppose the monster of these people's irrational fears were ever going to be tamed?  The British people may ordinarily be lovely, fair-minded, charitable, etc.  Until this conversation, I was prepared to accept that there were principally libertarian, "let's be ruled by Britons alone" sort of attitude underpinning Brexit.  Yet, you posited immigration was a principal issue, and insofar as that is accurate, then it was an ugly overreaction, and one is forced to wonder how long that instinct should be coddled.

I would go back and read my last few posts, might help answer your questions

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This 'reshuffle' appears to be a big bag of nothing. 

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Jeremy Hunt has apparently just gone in to see May. There seems to be division on whether he's going to be promoted or if a large plastic bag is going to be manhandled out of the back door and taken to the dump in a few minutes.

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Larry just seen entering Downing Street. "Highly likely" to be made Deputy PM.

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I was Conservative Party Chairman once. Hardest thirty seconds of my life. 

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They've given Jeremy Hunt social care as well. Brilliant, he's probably starting a scoreboard of how many fatalities he can add to his tally through this measure. I think he's still in a competition with the DWP.

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Jeremy Hunt has apparently just gone in to see May. There seems to be division on whether he's going to be promoted or if a large plastic bag is going to be manhandled out of the back door and taken to the dump in a few minutes.

That would only happen, if there were NHS employees waiting for him behind the doors of number ten.As amusing as that idea might be.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

They've given Jeremy Hunt social care as well. Brilliant, he's probably starting a scoreboard of how many fatalities he can add to his tally through this measure. I think he's still in a competition with the DWP.

Well, winter is not over yet. Your heart surgery has been postponed we are deeply sorry for this. Your socialcare check is in the mail, we are deeply sorry for any inconvenience caused by you not being able to pay the heating bill. Sincerely Jeremy Hunt.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

They've given Jeremy Hunt social care as well. Brilliant, he's probably starting a scoreboard of how many fatalities he can add to his tally through this measure. I think he's still in a competition with the DWP.

According to the BBC he apparently was going to be moved to a different role but refused and insisted on also taking on social care. Meanwhile Justine Greening has apparently quit rather than be moved to DWP. It does say something about May's control of her cabinet that she can't make her ministers do the role she wants them to do.

To be fair, considering social care and health together could make sense, but only if it went to a minister less disastrous than Jeremy Hunt.

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Toby Young has fallen on his sword, but unfortunately not literally.

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I return to my earlier point about May being the least competent PM I've ever seen. Ministers semi-publicly refusing to move in a reshuffle? a reshuffle trailed as bringing more women in, that results in one of your few high-profile women resigning? Announcing a new party chairman, oops, sorry, that was a mistake? Backing Young only to have him resign the next day? All this and it's only Tuesday morning. What next? 

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Posted (edited)

Theresa May is so weak she cannot force her will on Jeremy Hunt, who is nothing but a walking sack of flesh containing only human faeces. This is desperately pathetic.

Edited by Werthead

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Best part about this story: Farage making an idiot of himself as usual.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42621425

'Banning things because you don’t like them solves nothing', says man who wants to ban burqas, breastfeeding in public, and wind farms, among other things. 

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See, this is why I was asking about May’s longevity. There’s nothing from a realpolitik standpoint that suggest she can last much longer.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

See, this is why I was asking about May’s longevity. There’s nothing from a realpolitik standpoint that suggest she can last much longer.

The Tories have gotten themselves into a real mess and it would be vastly more amusing if they weren't in power and letting the country go to the dogs whilst they were rebelling and blaming one another for rebelling.

The problem is that there isn't anyone with the will and authority who could step in and take over. You'd just end up with another weak, make-do candidate who would be seen as a caretaker. Even worse, with May having set the precedent of seeking a mandate after becoming leader and the Conservatives screeching about Gordon Brown's unelected coronation as PM, it would be very difficult for a new Tory leader to resist the calls for a fresh general election, which would just blow everything up right now (they might just stretch out their caretaker role until mid-2019 and call a fresh election then, which Gove seems to be in favour of).

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Interestingly, Richard Leonard (new Scottish Labour leader) was interviewed on the radio this morning. Asked about how he saw Brexit going, he suggested that the government would agree a deal that the Commons would reject: but instead of this leading to a second referendum, it would lead to a general election.

I've been pondering if this was just him rambling out loud or if this is Labour's strategy.

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

Interestingly, Richard Leonard (new Scottish Labour leader) was interviewed on the radio this morning. Asked about how he saw Brexit going, he suggested that the government would agree a deal that the Commons would reject: but instead of this leading to a second referendum, it would lead to a general election.

I've been pondering if this was just him rambling out loud or if this is Labour's strategy.

I think the smart money is on it's the latter.

Hasn't Corbyn himself ruled out a second referendum? I mean he even refused to attend that keep the UK in the SM meeting with the other opposition parties, which has lead to Blackford nailing Corbyn.

So what makes you think it's just rambling?

But it's a job first Brexit. So what you gonna do? *shrug*

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Corbyn is trying to retain freedom of action for as long as possible, and ideally until after a Brexit deal is already agreed by the Tories so he can come in and say they are obligated to stick to the Tory deal but they can change everything else. If he won a pre-finalised Brexit deal general election, that would be the worst possible outcome for him as he would have to firmly choose a stance, and if he chose an pro-Brexit one he might find the people who voted for him dropping away (shades of the Lib Dems and tuition fees, although probably not as dramatic). It's a tightrope he doesn't want to get on, which is why Labour are not making anywhere near as much hay on the government's chaotic leadership as they could be.

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