UK Politics: Winter of Discontent

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

He's also quite remarkably thick, in the Gove/Raab camp of people who like to pretend they are intellectual and then show the precise opposite (unlike, say, Johnson, who actually is relatively bright but completely collapses when he is required to perform on the spot without the benefit of several hours of revising and editing what he's saying). He doesn't do the thing Raab does when he loses an argument which is start blustering and sweating like a mofo, which is endlessly entertaining.

I still don't buy into that BoJo is a smart guy playing an idiot narrative. He is an idiot. A highly educated idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. And he kinda makes you question the value of higher education, even if it's just Eton.

5 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm no fan of Cameron, as anyone here will attest. But May is without doubt a much, much less competent PM than Cameron, or indeed any other PM I can remember, and I can remember back to Callaghan (if only vaguely).

Cameron? You mean "you can call me Dave" whose political miscalculation set this whole Brexit thing into motion? You must really feal some sort of deep contempt for May.

[mormont]

16 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Tluckily there are still some people in the world who can understand the difference between jokes and actual offensive behaviour

You're close. So close. Now, you just need to ask yourself: who are those people, and am I, Eggegg, one of them? Or could it be that other people have the right of which side of that line these remarks are on?

A clue might lie in reading the things that Young actually said. Is there anything funny about them at all? Once you take away the pre-pubescent thrill of saying naughty things about women's bodies, is there any wit, any amusing observation, any entertainment value, anything at all except a boy who never grew up acting in a way that would see a ten-year-old told off for being immature and crude? Is there, in fact, anything to those remarks except offensive behaviour?

I would say 'no'. If you differ, please do explain specifically where the humour in those comments is.

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, especially if its things said almost a decade ago in some cases.

Since there is zero indication that Young has changed his attitude over that decade - except for a mealy-mouthed statement he put out yesterday trying to salvage his appointment - and since he has continued to behave that way, this is irrelevant.

ps a decade ago, Toby Young was the age I am now - in his mid-forties. Why is there this urge always to excuse and explain away bad behaviour by straight white middle-aged men with 'it was a long time ago'?

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He's certainly an arsehole, and an abrasive arsehole, but that doesn't preclude him from doing his job.

I've not only explained that it does, but given a specific example of how.

[The Marquis de Leech]

16 hours ago, Notone said:

Cameron? You mean "you can call me Dave" whose political miscalculation set this whole Brexit thing into motion? You must really feal some sort of deep contempt for May.

Cameron could actually run a half-decent campaign.

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Cameron could actually run a half-decent campaign.

 

The curious thing is that at the time, I thought the 2015 election campaign was awful.  I expected the Conservatives to come first, but to be well short of the number of seats they needed to form a government.  In fact, I think that the Conservatives ran awful election campaigns in each of 2010, 2015, and 2017.  Fortunately, they have enough support in the country (or Labour are sufficiently disliked)  to offset this.

[The Marquis de Leech]

18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Fortunately, they have enough support in the country (or Labour are sufficiently disliked)  to offset this.

Along those lines, I think fear of Corbyn is the only thing keeping the polls close.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Along those lines, I think fear of Corbyn is the only thing keeping the polls close.

That, and Brexit.

[Eggegg]

3 hours ago, mormont said:

I would say 'no'. If you differ, please do explain specifically where the humour in those comments is.

I'm not going to waste everyone's time explaining humour to you. If your sense of humour is different to his and other people, then fair enough.

3 hours ago, mormont said:

Why is there this urge always to excuse and explain away bad behaviour by straight white middle-aged men with 'it was a long time ago'?

Nice unnecessary highlighting of race and gender there. I'm not sure there is any need to really comment further after you did that.

37 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Along those lines, I think fear of Corbyn is the only thing keeping the polls close.

Well the fear on one side and the idolisation on the other side is what is keeping the polls so close. Its very interesting how divided opinion is on him, and pretty much everything in the UK right now.
 

[Derfel Cadarn]

46 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Along those lines, I think fear of Corbyn is the only thing keeping the polls close.

I sometimes wonder how things would have played out had Milliband stayed in place.  

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I sometimes wonder how things would have played out had Milliband stayed in place.  

There would be less enthusiasm for him, but less fear, on the other side, so in think that the overall result would be much the same.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Eggegg said:

I'm not going to waste everyone's time explaining humour to you.

You wouldn't be wasting anyone's time: I've asked, so it wouldn't be wasting my time, and nobody else has to read it, so it's not wasting theirs.

However, I think everyone clearly understands this to mean that you can't explain the humour because there is no humour here.

'Can't you take a joke?' really is the weakest bullshit argument there is.

[Eggegg]

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

You wouldn't be wasting anyone's time: I've asked, so it wouldn't be wasting my time, and nobody else has to read it, so it's not wasting theirs.

However, I think everyone clearly understands this to mean that you can't explain the humour because there is no humour here.

'Can't you take a joke?' really is the weakest bullshit argument there is.

No, I just think that you will simply not understand that someone might find something amusing even if you do not. No point continuing that line of discussion. Its not for you, fair enough.

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I sometimes wonder how things would have played out had Milliband stayed in place.  

Even if Miliband might have been able to occupy a 'less bad option' position in opposition to the May's Tories, he had the charisma of a pork pie, and wouldn't have had a chance to mobilise support in the way that Corbyn did. 

[Werthead]

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No, I just think that you will simply not understand that someone might find something amusing even if you do not

 

To be fair, I think most people find the notions of making fun of disabled people, of openly leering over underage girls and making comments about women that emphasise their attractiveness (or not) as their only attribute of merit as incompatible with "humour".

Toby Young is a misogynistic and sexist moron with what appears to a paedophiliac streak (however inadvertent) and a creepy obsession with young women. He is also profoundly dishonest, stating that he's got nothing to be ashamed of and then deleting fifty thousand tweets (indicating he is ashamed of them). He has nothing to offer to the conversation or the role and his appointment is a serious error of judgement.

[Eggegg]

23 hours ago, Werthead said:

To be fair, I think most people find the notions of making fun of disabled people, of openly leering over underage girls and making comments about women that emphasise their attractiveness (or not) as their only attribute of merit as incompatible with "humour".

Toby Young is a misogynistic and sexist moron with what appears to a paedophiliac streak (however inadvertent) and a creepy obsession with young women. He is also profoundly dishonest, stating that he's got nothing to be ashamed of and then deleting fifty thousand tweets (indicating he is ashamed of them). He has nothing to offer to the conversation or the role and his appointment is a serious error of judgement.

You might think he is a misogynist ( possibly I agree with you, but again I think making jokes is not the same as expressing genuine opinion on something, people say things for shock value and the offensiveness is part of the point when joking) 

I take issue with you calling him a paedophile however. That is a very dangerous term to be throwing around and can destroy people. I'd be very careful about using that word unless you absolutely mean it. I'm sure you are in general careful with your words.

Also, having read his articles and tweets I don't agree he was making fun of disabled people ,his comments in question referred to promoting inclusivity above educational attainment. 

I, like most people don't think he should be given the job he's been given, mainly because I'm not convinced that he has the appropriate qualifications, even if he has had experience in starting schools etc. I also think he's a bullshitter and a bit of a nob.
I can't stand the twitter culture of outrage however, I don't want to live in a world where making jokes about boobs can destroy peoples lives, or be part of a culture that dredges up things people said decades before to use it against them. Its a scary time. 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

again I think making jokes is not the same as expressing genuine opinion on something

And again, we are not discussing jokes.

Look, I know you've picked this hill to die on but: let's remind ourselves of what we're talking about.

'Danny Boyle's wife's got huge knockers'.

'Do Padma's breasts look bigger than normal? I think they do'.

'What happened to Winkleman's breasts. Put on some weight, girlie'.

There is literally no content in these remarks other than a jackass leering at women's breasts. To describe these as 'jokes' is rendering the word meaningless*. If those are 'jokes', then 'Toby Young is a paedophile' is also a joke. Ha ha. You just don't get why it's funny. I could explain it but why waste everyone's time. Etc.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will be over here in the world where words have meanings.

 

*unless of course you find leering inherently funny, in which case that's a whole different issue.

[Eggegg]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

And again, we are not discussing jokes.

Look, I know you've picked this hill to die on but: let's remind ourselves of what we're talking about.

'Danny Boyle's wife's got huge knockers'.

'Do Padma's breasts look bigger than normal? I think they do'.

'What happened to Winkleman's breasts. Put on some weight, girlie'.

There is literally no content in these remarks other than a jackass leering at women's breasts. To describe these as 'jokes' is rendering the word meaningless*. If those are 'jokes', then 'Toby Young is a paedophile' is also a joke. Ha ha. You just don't get why it's funny. I could explain it but why waste everyone's time. Etc.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will be over here in the world where words have meanings.

 

*unless of course you find leering inherently funny, in which case that's a whole different issue.

Look , honestly. You just don’t understand that the crudeness of what he’s saying is part of the humour. You don’t have to find it funny ( and I don’t really) to understand that he is saying things in jest and being purposely shocking. It’s laddish humour and that is probably why you don’t appreciate it. 

And no, accusing someone of paedophilla when they clearly are not interested in prepubescent children is no laughing matter at all, and certainly wasn’t said in the spirit of humour. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

It may well be laddish humour but it is also Rape Culture.   So the argument about it being a joke or funny to some people is completely irrelevant.   Rape Culture is 100% intolerable.  you can either oppose rape culture or your part of it.  there is no middle ground.

[Eggegg]

53 minutes ago, Pebble said:

It may well be laddish humour but it is also Rape Culture.   So the argument about it being a joke or funny to some people is completely irrelevant.   Rape Culture is 100% intolerable.  you can either oppose rape culture or your part of it.  there is no middle ground.

It’s not rape culture. Stop being silly.

[denstorebog]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

Look , honestly. You just don’t understand that the crudeness of what he’s saying is part of the humour.

So basically you've just given me carte blanche to say anything about you, your closest family, to humiliate you and them in public, to carefully and passively incite antagonism against any minority, as long as I follow up with a humour disclaimer. Is that correctly understood?

[Eggegg]

8 minutes ago, denstorebog said:

So basically you've just given me carte blanche to say anything about you, your closest family, to humiliate you and them in public, to carefully and passively incite antagonism against any minority, as long as I follow up with a humour disclaimer. Is that correctly understood?

Is that anything like what Young has done here? Some very silly comments in here today. 

[denstorebog]

22 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Is that anything like what Young has done here? Some very silly comments in here today. 

You should just be flattered that so many are taking this level of interest in finding out what the fuck you mean, because it sure is obscure. You justified crass, personal comments with the classic 'humour' defense, but you won't play ball when it's turned around on you.