lAPPYc

The lie of a love story

55 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To add on to what's been said I have point out if Rheagar was intent on marrying Lyanna and she was truly consenting, even it caused an uproar if they had gotten married there's virtually nothing Rickard Stark could do about it, there's no such thing as divorce in Westeroes so even if Rickard disapproved of the relationship he'd have to bear it for honors sake. Hell you don't have to wait for Lyanna to have had a swelled belly I'm sure there saying so would destroy any chance of the marriage contract to Robert being fulfilled. 

Also I find it hard to accept Ellia would be cool with this. Jon bringing in another wife adds unneeded competition to her own children.

I think Rhaegar was told to give Lyanna the crown by Aerys. That explains why he didn't give it to Elia.  This is the meaning of the thorns hidden beneath the crown.  If anyone took Lyanna; it was Aerys because what follows is an attempt to destroy House Stark.  If Rhaegar saved her from Aerys; it wasn't to get into bed with her.   

The notion that the thorns represent the difficulties in their relationship is so soppy; it's making it up as you go.  The question is why is it necessary for Jon to have Targ blood in the first place? 

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Rhaegar was diabolical with his plan from the very begining.

Edited by Steel and Ice

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On 12/13/2017 at 11:01 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

What sappy love story are you talking about? Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he abandoned everything for her, and her family did not like it one bit. Rickard Stark ended up killed because of Brandon's stupidity, Rhaegar was forced to fight against the remaining Starks who were heavily allied with Robert Baratheon who would certainly kill his and Lyanna's child, and in the end the Starks succeeded in killing Rhaegar. Now Lyanna finds herself giving birth alone in the middle of nowhere while Robert rewards the Lannisters and Gregor Clegane for raping and butchering Elia Martell and her children, and what's worse, Lyanna knows she's gonna die. She now has no choice but to beg Ned(Robert's best friend) to protect her son.

What sappy love story are you talking about? have you been reading the same story i did? if you did, i would advise you to pay more attention to the details. Everything is tragic enough already.

Lyanna was terrified of Rhaegar. He was a monster, with god-complex.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 5:40 AM, lAPPYc said:

Aerys may be unstable, but the Stark's WON'T try to put an end to their romance. That was the whole point I was trying to make. Rickard Stark wanted power, and what is more power than having the heir to the crown as his son-in-law?

The Starks are basically the Children's "nannycams" for humanity. Anything The Stark knows, they know, and the Children can sway The Stark to whatever decision they wish by sending him directives in dreams. Rhaegar was a mythic player, but you're still talking about the "game of thrones". The Stark cannot be trusted to make decisions in the best interest of humanity when those choices would conflict with the interests of his masters.

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13 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

I have sadly thought that the notion that there is a real love story between Rhaegar and Lyanna was wishful thinking.

GRRM considers himself a romantic...

13 hours ago, Daniel Newhouse said:

But it led to some good art work.

Very much true.

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On 23. 12. 2017 at 7:45 PM, Jamie Roberts said:

Especially, this.  I believe the rose she had in her hand wasn't from that.

It may have, and it may not.

But as for the logic of her having the crown with her: it would make sense for a pre-planned journey, and she took along the one thing that she had from Rhaegar and that she cherished. Does this really seem far-fetched to you?

On 24. 12. 2017 at 1:15 AM, Jamie Roberts said:

She or he might have put the roses in the room. 

Lots of things might have happened. But they usually don't explain why Ned keeps associating Lyanna with blue roses in his thoughts, memories and dreams. This single occurence, early in AGOT - Ned's first PoV, in fact - is the only place where the colour of the roses is not specified (before they dried, that is). Everywhere else it is blue roses, and those blue roses gradually become a garland, to be eventually revealed as the QoLaB crown gifted by Rhaegar. Given this gradual reveal, I believe that the first mention is merely part of the pattern not to reveal what those roses were too early into the book.

On 24. 12. 2017 at 1:15 AM, Jamie Roberts said:

I always get this gut feeling that Ned knew where Lyanna was for a long while.  Like I said, gut feeling.  :)

On that we can agree. 

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On 12/19/2017 at 6:46 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Someone had to have seen Rhaegar there to say that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Perhaps this plays into the theory that Littlefinger caused Robert’s Rebellion?...

I have a hard time seeing why Rhaegar would even like or want Lyanna. 

Specially since most people think Elia was pregnant still at Harrenhal. Which means Rhaegar doesn't know he needs a third child. So why Crown Lyanna, when your not even interested in her and have no plan to kidnap her till you later learn that your wife can't birth a third child for your prophecy. Makes no sense at all. 

If Aegon was born before Harrenhal then he at least has motive for giving her a rose. Though it wouldn't be love then, just serving a purpose. Real romantic. 

But as most believe Aegon is born after Harrenhal. Then why is Rhaegar paying her any attention at all? 

And dont say cause she's the Knight, The Knight of the Laughing tree was a male as repeatedly said by Meera. 

Rheagar can't find high spirited women in Dorne? He doesn't even seem the type to cheat. Eddard even say's Rheagar didn't seem the type to visit brothels. Why would he want Lyanna out of no wheres? She's not the Knight, so only time we can assume he even saw her was at the feast crying, but meh. That was enough to hook him? Sounds weak. 

I just dont see what drew Rhaegar to risk his families lives, his kingdom, and his life. To run away with some chick he didn't know to father a child he didn't know he even needed yet when he crowned her. 

For a guy who kidnapped some ones bride and brought on a war, he seems awfully unconcerned with it when talking to Jamie. Even telling Jamie that Aerys fears Tywin more than Robert. Even after Robert won the Battle of the Bells and the North, Riverlands, Stormlands, and Vale have already united. Even with all of this, Rhaegar seems' very chill about it all. Not even giving it a mention. Just talking about Tywin.

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if Tywin didnt' spread the lie that Rhaegar took Lyanna. Aerys and Rhaegar are more concerned with Tywin. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 8:55 AM, LynnS said:

I think Rhaegar was told to give Lyanna the crown by Aerys. That explains why he didn't give it to Elia.  This is the meaning of the thorns hidden beneath the crown.  If anyone took Lyanna; it was Aerys because what follows is an attempt to destroy House Stark.  If Rhaegar saved her from Aerys; it wasn't to get into bed with her.   

The notion that the thorns represent the difficulties in their relationship is so soppy; it's making it up as you go.  The question is why is it necessary for Jon to have Targ blood in the first place? 

Im fully on board with the idea that Rhaegar gave the crown on behest of some one else. This happened in other Tourneys too, like Aemon the Dragon Knight who was going to crown the woman he loved, but instead crowned his sister Naerys to try to restore her honor due to Aegon IV treating her so bad. 

And yea, good point. Since Dany is the mother of dragons and isn't that what matters? The flaming sword in the darkness? Then what is Jon? The Darkness? the opposite to Dany? That would make more sense than him being a secret Targaryen who's gonna ride a dragon and wield a magical flaming sword, and sleep with Dany and yada yada. No sense at all. 

What would it even change in Jon's life to find out? Jon's already where he needs to be. He's already doing what he need's to be doing. So finding this out would change nothing. He's not suddenly gonna stop everything and run south to fight for the throne, or compete against Dany. It's stupid.

If any one like other odd clues to. 

13 never is linked to Dany, Just BR, Jon, Bran, and the Night's King.

Dany on the other hand is told that 13 is an unlucky number. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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On 19/12/2017 at 7:18 AM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

 

Following that line of thought, one can assume that if something is already tragic, George will make it even more tragic. I doubt Elia was involved in anything Rhaegar did, it just wouldn't make sense, she had kids, and the image of a woman who made her husband unhappy or just wanted to do her duty is not interesting. I don't see George writing something like that, i see him writing something more human, more complex.

What i see George writing is a woman who loved her husband, and said husband left her in the end, and to make things worse, the mountain rapes and butchers her. That's something i see George writing, and as unreliable as the show is, this is in line with what Oberyn said on the show: "my sister loved him, and beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her". Rhaegar also played a bittersweet song for Elia when Aegon was born, it was a happy moment, but Rhaegar(not Elia) also knew it was the end of their relationship.

Ah agree so much with this. As much as i love R and L there is no denying that they were selfish. In love but selfish. I can also see Elia deep inside knowing that Rhaegar didnot love her and after the tourney of Harenhall realising that her husband is in love with another girl. Because though Rhaegar didnot ran off after at least a year, he probly already was smitten/intrigued/ maybe in love. Poor Elia. 

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On 12/13/2017 at 10:22 AM, lAPPYc said:

Why did Rhaegar Targaryen take Lyanna Stark to the Tower of Joy? He was the Prince of Dragonstone.There was the Red Keep. Assuming that he knew about the grand plans and alliances of Rickard Stark, and that he was pressed by the necessity to impregnate Lyanna Stark to save the world, and assuming that she was in love with him, he would have had a much better future if he'd taken Lyanna to either Dragonstone or the Red Keep, or anywhere else, and just contacted Rickard Stark and traded Dorne for the price of the North, the Riverlands, and the maybe even the Vale once Hoster Tully marries Lysa to Jon Arryn(now that Jaime had taken the white). Dorne might have stewed, and of course, the Stormlord would have been angry. But this is a course that would have been worth trying. And if he thought Rickard Stark might prove reluctant to break his vow to the lecherous teenage orphaned lord of Storm's End who has never yet proved his mettle like Rhaegar has for the man his daughter actually loves, all he had to do was show him her swollen belly once he'd impregnated her, and now the only way for her father to save her honor would be for him to accept this marriage between his daughter and the Crown Prince who won the greatest tourney of them all.(Oh, what a hard choice)

He didn't try any of this though, and the only explanation I can come up with is that Lyanna refused to marry him.

Oh, she might have loved him. We know she didn't approve of the way Robert chased skirts, (I can't remember if she complained about his drinking, she might have), and we know she was willful and wild. But the fact that Rickard Stark calls it the 'wolf blood' tells us that she wasn't the first in the long ancient line of the Starks to have had this blood(Gee, what are the chances of that happening?). And yet the Starks are reputed to be honorable than most. That means that many, if not most, of their 'wolf blooded' children calmed their blood and went the honorable way(Gee, what are the chances of a lord's daughter adhering to the proud history of her house and making true on her promises?)

I am not saying that Lyanna Stark was the strongest of the people. It takes courage to put aside our own feelings and marry the man you hate for the good for your kingdom. And not all people are that strong. But had she consented to Rhaegar, he wouldn't have needed to hide her like he did. If it had been consensual, he'd have returned to the Red Keep once he heard of Brandon's arrest and of the fact that a summons has been sent to Rickard Stark. The summons went the north and then the lord of Winterfell made the long journey to the south, even by ship that's a lot of time(He'd have to journey to White Harbor) for Rhaegar to learn of the developments with the family of the woman whose love he meant to keep right there in the Tower of Joy.

So I do think that Lyanna was a strong woman who could put the needs of her kingdom before her own feelings. Maybe she had an affair with Rhaegar when he/or friends captured the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and maybe that's what prompted the Dragon Prince to recognize her as his true love/or meant to be and into giving her the crown of Love and Beauty.(I don't like to assume that he fell in love with her either. He was already being an asshole to Elia, he didn't need to actually fall for another woman too. He'd be a much better person if he did all this only for the kingdoms, and no f****ing love was involved). But when he offered her the chance to marry him, I think that for Lyanna, the good of her kingdoms was what her father told her. She is a sixteen-year-old girl and we have never been led to believe she knew enough about politics to recognize Rhaegar as a better match in her father's eyes. Rhaegar might have tried to convince by making the arguments mentioned above, but maybe he failed(How often do girls believe the wild tales men tell them when they know the man only wants to get in their pants? Very very few times, I hope).

All I know is that Rhaegar took pains to hide her till she was heavy with child. Dragonstone would be essentially a Dornish base at the moment what with Elia the homemaker, and who knows what a vengeful venomous person might do, so Rhaegar couldn't bring Lyanna there even if she had consented. But if she had consented, the Red Keep, the center of the Kingdom was the best place to plan his next alliances. I doubt Aerys would have been that much of a problem. Pycelle writes to the citadel that the 'Red Keep' was divided and that it reminded him of the court in the times of the Dance. So we know that Rhaegar had friends there. Even if he hadn't though, Aerys wouldn't have harmed him or Lyanna. For all he is thinking, Rhaegar is just following his little head. And if he thinks along the lines of 'Rhaegar just insulted Storm's End and the North', well, that's just the regular politics for the Red Keep, nothing to fear for your life, or that of your bastard's, or of that of the girl's that is making you look dishonorable in the eyes of the kingdom itching to crown you.

No, Rhaegar didn't bring her to the Red Keep because he was afraid Lyanna might find a helper to spirit her from the crowded Keep. That's regular politics also, especially if Lyanna was held against her will, and that's what he was afraid of. I want the Song of Ice and Fire be a saga of hard choices, and not a sappy love story that D&D have given to us.

I always thought that if Rhaegar had truly loved Lyanna he wouldn't have taken her to Dorne, even if she consented. He was older and he should've put her well-being and reputation before his desires.

I actually wish that we find out later that Lyanna had been kidnapped rather than that she fled with him willingly. From what we read about her she was responsible had similar traits with Arya, and I can hardly think that Arya as a selfish girl who would leave her family to burn while having a good time with her lover. 

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On 3/29/2018 at 7:05 AM, theShe_wolf said:

Ah agree so much with this. As much as i love R and L there is no denying that they were selfish. In love but selfish. I can also see Elia deep inside knowing that Rhaegar didnot love her and after the tourney of Harenhall realising that her husband is in love with another girl. Because though Rhaegar didnot ran off after at least a year, he probly already was smitten/intrigued/ maybe in love. Poor Elia. 

Agreed. Elia and her children (i can't think of them as Rhaegar's because he left them to kidnap or run off with Lyanna) didn't deserve their fate. 

On 4/16/2018 at 10:09 AM, Lady Jowana said:

I always thought that if Rhaegar had truly loved Lyanna he wouldn't have taken her to Dorne, even if she consented. He was older and he should've put her well-being and reputation before his desires.

I actually wish that we find out later that Lyanna had been kidnapped rather than that she fled with him willingly. From what we read about her she was responsible had similar traits with Arya, and I can hardly think that Arya as a selfish girl who would leave her family to burn while having a good time with her lover. 

I agree that Arya is not a selfish girl and she would not run off with a married man with two children.  Arya wouldn't hurt an innocent woman or her children.  Maybe Arya and Lyanna aren't that similar after all even though they have similar interests and look alike if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. 

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On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, Lady Jowana said:

I always thought that if Rhaegar had truly loved Lyanna he wouldn't have taken her to Dorne, even if she consented. He was older and he should've put her well-being and reputation before his desires.

I actually wish that we find out later that Lyanna had been kidnapped rather than that she fled with him willingly. From what we read about her she was responsible had similar traits with Arya, and I can hardly think that Arya as a selfish girl who would leave her family to burn while having a good time with her lover. 

 

23 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

Agreed. Elia and her children (i can't think of them as Rhaegar's because he left them to kidnap or run off with Lyanna) didn't deserve their fate. 

I agree that Arya is not a selfish girl and she would not run off with a married man with two children.  Arya wouldn't hurt an innocent woman or her children.  Maybe Arya and Lyanna aren't that similar after all even though they have similar interests and look alike if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. 

I don't think we should overlook the possibility that both Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been kidnapped. We don't really know how the abduction story got out. Were there witnesses? Who brought the tale to Brandon? For all we know, the whole story could have been cooked up by Aerys because he suspected both of them to be plotting against him following the Laughing Tree episode at the tourney.

If this is the case, though, why would Rhaegar then lead an army to defeat Aerys' enemies rather than using it to depose his father? Simple: Aerys was holding Elia and the two children, who would most certainly have wound up in a vat of wildfire should Rhaegar not do as he is told.

And if this is the case, I think there is a strong argument in favor of the idea that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar, but of Aerys.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

I don't think we should overlook the possibility that both Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been kidnapped. We don't really know how the abduction story got out. Were there witnesses? Who brought the tale to Brandon? For all we know, the whole story could have been cooked up by Aerys because he suspected both of them to be plotting against him following the Laughing Tree episode at the tourney.

If this is the case, though, why would Rhaegar then lead an army to defeat Aerys' enemies rather than using it to depose his father? Simple: Aerys was holding Elia and the two children, who would most certainly have wound up in a vat of wildfire should Rhaegar not do as he is told.

And if this is the case, I think there is a strong argument in favor of the idea that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar, but of Aerys.

I'm not really sure if someone could kidnap Rhaegar given his strength and the amount of people that would accompany him all the time. Even if they were kidnapped how did he escape and why would he leave Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and not return her to her family?

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21 hours ago, Lady Jowana said:

I'm not really sure if someone could kidnap Rhaegar given his strength and the amount of people that would accompany him all the time. Even if they were kidnapped how did he escape and why would he leave Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and not return her to her family?

I don't think Rhaegar is overly strong. About average for a knight, I suppose, but he preferred music and poetry to swords and lances. Aerys could easily send a company of men to overwhelm whatever guard Rhaegar might have with him.

As I said, Aerys could compel Rhaegar's loyalty by threatening to slow-roast his family over a big vat of wildfire if he doesn't comply.

Rhaegar cannot return Lyanna to her family because he is not the one holding her.

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