AlaskanSandman

Can you bring an Other back to life (Fire)?

85 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

A lot of attention seems to be given to the idea of human (Fire) being turned into Other (Ice), yet i never see any thoughts going the other way.

Can you change an Other (Ice), back to human (Fire)?

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves or shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons—and even their vaunted greenseers—were not proof against. But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. 
 
 
Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The North

The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet's Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.
 
 
So the curse was placed on Garth by shoving the obsidian possibly into his chest. This only started the curse, NOT THE OTHERSSSSSSSS. Following?
 
Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns

In the Age of Heroes, the legends say, the ironborn were ruled by a mighty monarch known simply as the Grey King. The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose. His hair and beard and eyes were as grey as a winter sea, and from these he took his name. The crown he wore was made of driftwood, so all who knelt before him might know that his kingship came from the sea and the Drowned God who dwells beneath it.
 
 
The Grey King who activated the curse on his father Garth the Green, when the Grey King made war on his brother to become High King, which the curse prevents as it turns you into an other.
 
The war is eventually won, and a wall is built to divide the land. So no one can rule all of westeros any more, just everything south of the Wall. 
Hope i dont need a quote for the wall too.
 
 
In my theory on the Empire of the Dawn family, you can see, that i think Nissa Nissa may have been born to the side of the Others. 
 
 
Edited by Stubby
Made it clear that the post was about the books and removed implied criticism from author of post

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, so i have a thread showing my rough idea of the Empire of the Dawn family tree, and it brings me back to something ive thought about before. The change over or conversion into a white walker. 

A lot of attention seems to be given to the idea of human (Fire) being turned into Other (Ice), yet i never see any thoughts going the other way.

Can you change an Other (Ice), back to human (Fire)?

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

I think Rose of Red Lake was turned into an Other by Brandon of the Bloody Blade, but i think Nissa Nissa may have already been born an Other, and was thus turned back to Fire. 

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

I have also suspected that this may be a motive of the Night's King, to break the curse against him. Not just turn back to human, but break the curse for good. Which will involve a sacrifice of the Fire side to help the Night's King end it all. Idk. Main point is the transformation issue. 

Edit- After all, it may be that shoving obsidian in some ones chest is how you turn them, and obsidian is frozen fire. 

Nothing that you stated is even slightly hinted in the books. But nice fan fiction though. It may be, but every other idea that one can come up with, is just as possible, which makes this thesis pretty much personal opinion and not backed up by the source material. 

Also GRRM has already stated that there is no Night's King in the book. This should be given knowledge by now. 

 

 

Edited by Dragonsbone

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5 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Nothing that you stated is even slightly hinted in the books.

False. Even as a casual follower on this forum, I can tell where he's coming from with his theories.

5 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Also GRRM has already stated that there is no Night's King in the book. This should be given knowledge by now.

This is just not true. Are people really so dense as to think GRRM's statement on the status of legendary figures in the novels (Night's King, Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, etc) precludes those figures from impacting the storyline? All he says is that the Night's King is "no more likely" to have survived to the present than any other legend. If anything, his ambiguity should fuel more speculation that NK exists! Well done to @AlaskanSandman for theorizing outside the box and picking up on the obscure hints and clues.

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6 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Nothing that you stated is even slightly hinted in the books

This. There would have to be a concrete passage detailing the conversion of human to other for there to be a reverse. 

6 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

 But nice fan fiction though. It may be, but every other idea that one can come up with, is just as possible, which makes this thesis pretty much personal opinion and not backed up by the source material. 

This is primarily a show thing and thus we aren't supposed to discuss it here 

6 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Also GRRM has already stated that there is no Night's King in the book. This should be given knowledge by now. 

Do you have an SSM for this? 

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We have no reason to believe that the Others are dead.

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6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Are you even reading or just going around trying to put down stuff?? None of this is really a theory. What are you talking about? 

The idea that the Others were humans turned into Others is not my idea or theory, that's been around. The brief opinion i mention of mine is not the point of this post. The Question is. 

The idea that Obsidian shoved into the chest is not mine either, the show actually went that route and TWOIAF mentions a giants grave with obsidian daggers still found in his extant ribs. So again, what are you talking about?

Im simply asking if an Other can be turned back. 

Reading comprehension much?

And as far as the Night's King and the little bit i did mention as an idea of mine that is not relevant to the post, but sure, like a dog with a ball i guess. Sure, ill answer this non sense.

The Night's King is played down by Martin when talking about the books but not said to not exist. He said the Night's King is no more likely to exist than Bran the Builder. Since Bran the Builder likely is the Night's King, that's kind of really just a play on words. Just leaves open whether or not Bran the Builder is still alive then. 

If youd like though, i can flood your messages with links to threads to some of these other ideas since they seem to "Fan Fiction" of mine. As they actually are not and have been floating around for years by others. Just because you dont read much doesnt mean they're not there. 

His statement was entirely correct.  Perhaps you should check your own reading comprehension.  He said nothing you stated is remotely hinted at in the books, not that no one has theorized stuff you included, and certainly did not mention the show which we are not suppose to be discussing anyway.  If you don't want people to put down your theories, perhaps you should post theories that make sense.

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, so i have a thread showing my rough idea of the Empire of the Dawn family tree, and it brings me back to something ive thought about before. The change over or conversion into a white walker. 

A lot of attention seems to be given to the idea of human (Fire) being turned into Other (Ice), yet i never see any thoughts going the other way.

Can you change an Other (Ice), back to human (Fire)?

This assumes the show is the same as the book on this, and we have not been shown it yet 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

The legend says he killed her and her soul went into the sword and there was no mention of her as an other (eyes, skin, freezing weather following her around) so probably not. 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think Rose of Red Lake was turned into an Other by Brandon of the Bloody Blade, but i think Nissa Nissa may have already been born an Other, and was thus turned back to Fire. 

Why do you think this (as in, what part of the description leads you to come to that conclusion?) 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

You seem to be the first here, but this is really a show forum question as the show was where the transformation happened

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I have also suspected that this may be a motive of the Night's King, to break the curse against him. Not just turn back to human, but break the curse for good. Which will involve a sacrifice of the Fire side to help the Night's King end it all. Idk. Main point is the transformation issue. 

Edit- After all, it may be that shoving obsidian in some ones chest is how you turn them, and obsidian is frozen fire. 

Again, since this has not happened in the books, this is more of a show forum question 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

False. Even as a casual follower on this forum, I can tell where he's coming from with his theories

Provide any line in the book series that supports what you are just saying. I'll wait.

 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Are you even reading or just going around trying to put down stuff?? None of this is really a theory. What are you talking about? 

OK. So this is a fact now? : 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The idea that the Others were humans turned into Others is not my idea or theory, that's been around. The brief opinion i mention of mine is not the point of this post. The Question is. 

And I never used the word theory, since that would mean that you have a derivation of logically built concepts supported by facts, which you have not. I used the word thesis, which to be honest seems also a little bit over the top, since you still miss a logical concept out of your thoughts. What you have written seems more like brainstorming. And I also never said it was your theory or that you have came up with. But since you are writing it down, I can only answer to you. 

 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Since Bran the Builder likely is the Night's King, that's kind of really just a play on words. Just leaves open whether or not Bran the Builder is still alive then. 

You use this word "likely". I don't think you know what it means. 

 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just because you dont read much doesnt mean they're not there. 

Who denied their existence? How can you conclude out of my statement that I do not read? I do not read Fanfiction, that I can say, though. So your implication is what exactly? There are also a growing amount of people who believe the Earth is flat. Does this mean the Earth is therefore flat? The amount of opinions does not make an opinion true nor false. But the facts do. That is what I have stated in my post. You have some interesting, and to some people maybe apealing ideas, but you can not provide any line from the books that provide what you are saying. And no, relying your ideas on other unproven ideas or in the amount of people who believe It, are no facts. 

Edited by Dragonsbone

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2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This. There would have to be a concrete passage detailing the conversion of human to other for there to be a reverse. 

Let me ask you a more interesting question.

What would happen if a red priest tried to revive a wight?

So far we believe they are dead bodies being skinchanged/or something similar by the others.

So if the red priest revived all wight the others lose their army?

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The idea that Obsidian shoved into the chest is not mine either, the show actually went that route and TWOIAF mentions a giants grave with obsidian daggers still found in his extant ribs.


Not to be a nitpicky Nelly, but that is not quite what the big fat ol'World book says. While what the current day, in-world characters (and we readers) have as "fact" is actually more akin to tales and twisted history, there is some truth in there as well. The World book is really a reflection of the past to tell what is going on in the current story.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Yet no matter the truths of their arts, the children were led by their greenseers, and there is no doubt that they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea. They made their homes simply, constructing no holdfasts or castles or cities. Instead they resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of trees—secret tree "towns."
It has long been held that they did this for protection from predators such as direwolves or shadowcats, which their simple stone weapons—and even their vaunted greenseers—were not proof against. But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs. It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall. But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.
The beasts of the woods and the giants were eventually joined by other, greater dangers, however.

So here we have the giant, mostly decayed with just exisiting ribs left, and it has obsidian arrow heads in the ribs. Was this a fight for possessions or domain, or a fight to kill a wighted giant?

We have no proof or hints in the books that obsidian to a ribcage, or heart, makes an Other. Maybe we will get that :dunno:, but as of right now it is fan theory.

What we do have is Jon finding the cache of arrowheads hidden within the cracked horn, like a deliciously sharp smorgasbord. All of this seems to point to the upcoming events of how to kill the mass hoard of wights coming. The objective is to get the obsidian weapons into each brothers hand so they can help guard the realms of men. As Jojen tells us, "By night, all cloaks are black."

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

It must have been buried for a reason.
He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck.
The Old Bear had seemed pleased by the dagger, but he preferred a steel knife at his belt, Jon had noticed. Mormont could offer no answers as to who might have buried the cloak or what it might mean. Perhaps Qhorin will know. The Halfhand had ventured deeper into the wild than any other living man.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

He had told them. He had told them all. Some of them didn't believe him, he knew. Dirk had shown Sam his dirk and said, "I got iron, what do I want with glass?" Black Bernarr and the three Garths made it plain that they doubted his whole story, and Rolley of Sisterton came right out and said, "More like you stabbed some rustling bushes and it turned out to be Small Paul taking a shit, so you came up with a lie."
But Dywen listened, and Dolorous Edd, and they made Sam and Grenn tell the Lord Commander. Mormont frowned all through the tale and asked pointed questions, but he was too cautious a man to shun any possible advantage. He asked Sam for all the dragonglass in his pack, though that was little enough. Whenever Sam thought of the cache Jon had found buried beneath the Fist, it made him want to cry. There'd been dagger blades and spearheads, and two or three hundred arrowheads at least. Jon had made daggers for himself, Sam, and Lord Commander Mormont, and he'd given Sam a spearhead, an old broken horn, and some arrowheads. Grenn had taken a handful of arrowheads as well, but that was all.

Then later, Jon, as Lord Commander, is requiring daily archery training for his brothers. Sam even makes note of it while he is on the Cinnamon Wind. And remember how Jon won the election? A flood of arrowheads...

Storm of Swords - Jon XII

The raven cocked its head and looked at Jon. "Corn?" it said hopefully. When it got neither corn nor answer, it quorked and muttered, "Kettle? Kettle? Kettle?"
The rest was arrowheads, a torrent of arrowheads, a flood of arrowheads, arrowheads enough to drown the last few stones and shells, and all the copper pennies too.
When the count was done, Jon found himself surrounded. Some clapped him on the back, whilst others bent the knee to him as if he were a lord in truth.

And we have this, which is so nice that GRRM told it to his readers twice!

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"
"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."
"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"
"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night … or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."
"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"
 
(I want to know what the heck an ice spider is:P)

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

finally, it is in the proper forum 

Shit! This happened while I was writing my last post.

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33 minutes ago, divica said:

Let me ask you a more interesting question.

What would happen if a red priest tried to revive a wight?

The wights are already revived, so kissing them might not be an option :D
And Stoneheart is pretty screwed up on many levels after being dead for 3 days 

33 minutes ago, divica said:

So far we believe they are dead bodies being skinchanged/or something similar by the others.

Do we? In game, Jon notices that the wight he burned had to be able to locate the LC's quarters. It also seems that magic cannot pass the wall, except via the weirnet. Otherwise, the others could just raise every dead body south of the wall. 

35 minutes ago, divica said:

So if the red priest revived all wight the others lose their army?

Again, that would mean kissing a lot of wights that are already revived and attacking. There is no mass revive spell in ASOIAF

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47 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Shit! This happened while I was writing my last post.

did it hose your reply? 

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5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The wights are already revived, so kissing them might not be an option :D
And Stoneheart is pretty screwed up on many levels after being dead for 3 days 

Ok, but the red priest revival puts the soul of the body owner inside the body. Even if the wights are revived there is something foreign controling the bodies.

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Do we? In game, Jon notices that the wight he burned had to be able to locate the LC's quarters. It also seems that magic cannot pass the wall, except via the weirnet. Otherwise, the others could just raise every dead body south of the wall. 

I don t think it is that easy. Jon and other skinchangers can pass through the Wall with their animals without problems. So maybe a skinchanger noth of the Wall can t skinchange into an animal south of the wall? This seems more realistic, but I have no idea if there are exemples in the text that prove this is false or not. For example, does varamyr fly his eagle over the Wall during the attack of the wildlings? Does jon dream about his siblings wolves while he is north of the Wall? 

Having the knowledge of the previous owner of the body is a much more interesting argument. However, when jon and bran warg into their wolves don t they have the same knowledge as the wolves? I know this doesn t happen when bran hijacks hodor, but it may be because bran is doing it wrong?

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, that would mean kissing a lot of wights that are already revived and attacking. There is no mass revive spell in ASOIAF

We could have an army of red priest kissing wights. Besides, reviving a giant would be awesome and totally worth it.

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13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

did it hose your reply? 

Yes :angry2:

All of my balloons have been popped. ;):P

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11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, so i have a thread showing my rough idea of the Empire of the Dawn family tree, and it brings me back to something ive thought about before. The change over or conversion into a white walker. 

A lot of attention seems to be given to the idea of human (Fire) being turned into Other (Ice), yet i never see any thoughts going the other way.

Can you change an Other (Ice), back to human (Fire)?

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

I think Rose of Red Lake was turned into an Other by Brandon of the Bloody Blade, but i think Nissa Nissa may have already been born an Other, and was thus turned back to Fire. 

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

I have also suspected that this may be a motive of the Night's King, to break the curse against him. Not just turn back to human, but break the curse for good. Which will involve a sacrifice of the Fire side to help the Night's King end it all. Idk. Main point is the transformation issue. 

Edit- After all, it may be that shoving obsidian in some ones chest is how you turn them, and obsidian is frozen fire. 

Okay you have a bunch of stuff going on and bunches of boocoo assumptions.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, so i have a thread showing my rough idea of the Empire of the Dawn family tree, and it brings me back to something ive thought about before. The change over or conversion into a white walker. 

I can't discuss the Empire of the Dawn thing. I'm assuming it is something to do with the world book.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A lot of attention seems to be given to the idea of human (Fire) being turned into Other (Ice), yet i never see any thoughts going the other way.

Mayhaps you may like to try the heretic's thread in the DwD forum.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Can you change an Other (Ice), back to human (Fire)?

Mayhaps you may like to try the heretic's forum in DwD.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This question comes to me given that Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa, but what if it was to turn her into an Other, or back from being an Other?

I dunna know.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I think Rose of Red Lake was turned into an Other by Brandon of the Bloody Blade, but i think Nissa Nissa may have already been born an Other, and was thus turned back to Fire. 

Perhaps you should post this in the World of Ice and Fire forum because none of it is related to the five book uncompleted saga.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I was wondering if any one has given thought to this idea of it going the other way with transformations?

Me, no I have not.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I have also suspected that this may be a motive of the Night's King, to break the curse against him. Not just turn back to human, but break the curse for good. Which will involve a sacrifice of the Fire side to help the Night's King end it all. Idk. Main point is the transformation issue. 

Although Martin writes in an ambiguous manner I'm kinda thinking, no.

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Edit- After all, it may be that shoving obsidian in some ones chest is how you turn them, and obsidian is frozen fire. 

This has not happen in Martin's books. That is why the thread was moved to the show forum. The show Night King and the book saga Night's King are two different characters.

In the book saga frozen fire/obsidian/dragonglass is what kills the Others. Fire is what put the wights out of commission.

The show had to come up with an as yet undisclosed enemy in the books-- The Great Other --- whose name can't be said.

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40 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok, but the red priest revival puts the soul of the body owner inside the body. Even if the wights are revived there is something foreign controling the bodies.

So,  Thoros has a seperate soul for every time he revived Beric? 

41 minutes ago, divica said:

I don't think it is that easy. Jon and other skinchangers can pass through the Wall with their animals without problems. So maybe a skinchanger north of the Wall can't skinchange into an animal south of the wall? This seems more realistic, but I have no idea if there are exemples in the text that prove this is false or not. For example, does varamyr fly his eagle over the Wall during the attack of the wildlings? Does jon dream about his siblings wolves while he is north of the Wall? 

That is literally what happens in the books. And the eagle flies above the wall, but not past it 

44 minutes ago, divica said:

Having the knowledge of the previous owner of the body is a much more interesting argument. However, when jon and bran warg into their wolves don t they have the same knowledge as the wolves? I know this doesn t happen when bran hijacks hodor, but it may be because bran is doing it wrong?

Bran experiences everything hodor does in the same way he experiences the wolves 

46 minutes ago, divica said:

We could have an army of red priest kissing wights. Besides, reviving a giant would be awesome and totally worth it.

wights will not let someone get close enough to kiss it. But I am sure there are some necrophiliac red priests out there that would try :rofl: 

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3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We have no reason to believe that the Others are dead.

I agree.

1 hour ago, divica said:

What would happen if a red priest tried to revive a wight?

So far we believe they are dead bodies being skinchanged/or something similar by the others.

So if the red priest revived all wight the others lose their army?

I dunna know.

No, I dunna believe they are dead bodies being skinchanged.

Might I suggest the heresy thread.

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36 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes :angry2:

All of my balloons have been popped. ;):P

that blows!

 

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