Israel in Gaza - General Thread II

[Samalander]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642936' date='Jan 9 2009, 21.58']So does this make the IDF a de facto extension of the US military?[/quote]
That depends. Do we take orders directly from the US? Because I can assure you Nasrallah gets his orders from Iran.

[Ser Reptitious]

Silent Speaker,

[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1642899' date='Jan 9 2009, 12.36']Sir Rep: When Israel left Gaza, they left behind a set of fully stocked greenhouses (donated by international money, I believe) that were intended to become the cornerstone of a new Gaza economy. Within days those greenhouses were sacked and gutted. "Making the average Palestinian in Gaza well-off" is much easier said than done, even if Hamas doesn't directly act to prevent this. Which they would, for exactly the same reasons you're suggesting it be done in the first place. (This would be really really easy for them to do without making it look to any particullar man on the street like they were sabotaging him.)[/quote]

If memory serves correctly, the settlers pretty much cannibalized the greenhouses and everything else that they built, out of spite for being removed from Gaza, despite pleas that they not do so. The greenhouses may perhaps have been left standing, but I'm quite certain that the irigations systems and other things were deliberately destroyed before the Palestinians could get their hands on them.

But aside from that, I think it's just too easy for Israel to say that it doesn't even have to try to help the Palestinians because big, bad Hamas would destroy it all anyways. If that turns out to be the case, so be it, but to use it as an excuse for not even trying seems pretty lame to me.

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe']Like say, letting them work in Israel and buying their agricultural produce? That was what happened from 1967 until the terror attacks got to the point where Israel considered this to be too dangerous and started hiring foreign workers instead.[/quote]

That situation was certainly better than what we have today, but it was nowhere near a long term solution. The Palestinians working in Israel were doing menial jobs, much like illegal immigrants in the States today. As for buying agricultural produce, Gaza is highly urbanized, so it's not like a lot of Gazans benefit from this.

[quote]Israel did provide things to Gaza, even money for some reason, but it was all channeled through Hamas channels in the Gaza strip. Hamas as the sole ruler in there controlled who gets what and made sure everyone knew they owed it to them.[/quote]

Israel never allowed Gaza to reopen the seaport and airport, which would certainly be helpful.

[quote]None of these things would be possible as long as the Hamas militants are in control of Gaza.[/quote]

At this particular point in time it would certainly be difficult, I agree. But when Hamas was first voted into power in early 2006, it clearly had a motivation to show that it could actually govern. Ismail Hanyeh (sp?) seemed to be a fairly pragmatic individual with whom Israel might have been able to do business, through informal channels if necessary.

People often seem to forget that every movement tends to have a spectrum within itself, ranging from fanatics to more moderate pragmatists. Israel's actions have basically ensured that any pragmatists that may have existed within Hamas have been completely sidelined at this point, leaving the rocket-firing radicals completely in charge.

[Walpurgisborn]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1643076' date='Jan 9 2009, 16.14']That depends. Do we take orders directly from the US? Because I can assure you Nasrallah gets his orders from Iran.[/quote]
You can assure us of it, but you'd be talking out of your ass. Hezbollah has their own agenda and it is only loosely tied with Iran.

[The Progressive]

[quote]If memory serves correctly, the settlers pretty much cannibalized the greenhouses and everything else that they built, out of spite for being removed from Gaza, despite pleas that they not do so.[/quote]

Indeed; the Israelites bulldozed and destroyed all viable building prior to leaving Gaza, rather than leaving it to the Palestinians. All of this were documented by news sources dating back to 2005.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Lyreiania']I maintain that if you seek to assign blame, the lions share should be to the Palestineans.[/quote]

The point that has been made often, in this thread and elsewhere, is that assigning blame is not going to solve anything in a situation as fucked up as this. But given what you posted below I doubt you care.

[quote name='Lyreiania']Palestineans have to be screened prior to leaving the Gaza or other [b]areas they haunt[/b] BECAUSE they wish to blow things up. [b]Because they are a culture of death, destruction.[/b] Israel MUST for her safety maintain such restrictions in the face of a people who are genocidally committed to Israel and Jewish destruction.

It is a Jewish saying that he who saves a life, it is as if he saved the world. The Palestinean corollary appears to be he who KILLS a life, gains the world.[/quote]

All I can say to that is that this kind of open racism is rare sight indeed. Yours is a disgusting mindset.

[TheKassi]

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1642881' date='Jan 9 2009, 11.24']Ummm...yeah. The supposed most powerful military in the world pound for pound, couldnt beat a bunch of guys with RPG's hiding in bunkers.

My point about their success is that they didnt get wiped out. They took on the strongest military force in the Middle East that had total air superiority, a massive technological advantage, survived, inflicted about 650 IDF casulties (117 dead), and fired rockets with impunity, and the Israeli offensive ended in a stalemate at best. The point is that Israel failed to accomplish its goals in a huge way, while Hizbollah accomplished theirs.



Of course, Hizbollah's got a good thing going on now. They have tons of bragging rights, and are part of the governance of Lebanon. Why would they mess that up?[/quote]


There is only one reason that Hizbollah in Gaze didn't get wiped out. They were not a bunch of guys with RPGs hiding in bunkers. They were a bunch of guys with RPGs hiding behind schools and apartment buildings and so forth.

Remove the civilians from the equation, and Hizbollah dies in fire without a single Israeli casualty. Getting someone to stop kicking your tail by interposing an infant between you and your them isn't standing up to your attacker. It is pretty much the direct opposite of standing up to your attacker.

Hizbollah didn't make the Israeli army blink. The Palestinian noncombatants did.

[CelticBrennus]

[quote]There is only one reason that Hizbollah in Gaze didn't get wiped out. They were not a bunch of guys with RPGs hiding in bunkers. They were a bunch of guys with RPGs hiding behind schools and apartment buildings and so forth.[/quote]

From what I recall reading some of them were, and some were hiding in air conditioned bunkers and destroying tanks in ambushes. IIRC, the first tank got something like 10 feet inside Lebanon before it was destroyed by a mine.

[quote]Remove the civilians from the equation, and Hizbollah dies in fire without a single Israeli casualty. Getting someone to stop kicking your tail by interposing an infant between you and your them isn't standing up to your attacker. It is pretty much the direct opposite of standing up to your attacker.

Hizbollah didn't make the Israeli army blink. The Palestinian noncombatants did.[/quote]

What, you going to whine about not getting a fair fight according to the rules of war or something?

You dont take civilians out of the equation - they are there, and like in every war ever fought, and that ever will be fought there are civilians. And dealing with the consequences of killing civilians are simply part of the equation.

Basically, either Israel blinked, or Hizbollah is simply too strong for them to defeat. Which one do you prefer?

[Werthead]

[quote name='Tsoert' post='1642854' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.04']I thought the Mossad (the Israeli secret service right) was pretty top class? Would not a round of assassinations do the trick? All this ground invasion is doing is killing innocents and leading a generation of people towards anti-Israelism and terrorist sympathising surely?[/quote]

I could be wrong about this, but isn't Mossad generally considered to have lost its mojo these days? Mossad was an impressive organisation when there were many foreign powers who were actively seeking the destruction of Israel, but with the reduction of those hostile countries opposed to Israel's very existence reduced to pretty much just two (only one of which even begins to approach the capability that it could actually hurt Israel at all), their services are probably less required. I'm guessing that for even the best-trained Israeli intelligence agent, infiltrating Hamas is not possible, and the general Gazan population unlikely.

[quote name='snake' post='1642898' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.36'][url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm"]Here's a link.[/url]

Needless to say the Israeli's were quite pissed at the statement and the Vatican is trying to backtrack a little I think.[/quote]

Calling it a 'concentration' camp has some rather nasty connotations for Israelis and Jews in general, funnily enough. Semantically the phrase is not inaccurate (as it's a camp which simply 'concentrates' certain people into one certain area) but with all the baggage attached to the phrase, you're not going to convince anyone by saying you're just using the word in its technically-correct form.

There's also the argument I suspect that Israel would take, that the siege of Gaza was there to prevent suicide bombers from sneaking into Israel to take out civilian targets and would be lifted once discussions on a negotiated settlement could begin. Since Hamas are still dedicated to the destruction of Israel, that's not likely to happen any time soon (see my posts in the prior thread for more on this).

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642936' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.58']So does this make the IDF a de facto extension of the US military?[/quote]

There isn't any command-and-control interface between the Israeli and US militaries, I believe, whilst there seem to be direct contacts between Iran and Hizbollah, although the extent of those is heavily disputed.

One interesting thread we had a while back was the one asking exactly why Israel and the USA are so tight, and why the USA backs Israel up even when it does something really unwise, and why the USA never criticises Israel even when the rest of the world does. The only time you get the impression the USA is unhappy with Israel is when it abstains from a motion demanding a ceasefire rather than vetoing it if Israel doesn't want it. The USA is the only outside power that has the influence needed to persuade Israel to take alternate steps to the ones it normally does.

[arya_underfoot]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1643194' date='Jan 10 2009, 09.32']Indeed; the Israelites bulldozed and destroyed [b]all viable building[/b] prior to leaving Gaza, rather than leaving it to the Palestinians. All of this were documented by news sources dating back to 2005.[/quote]

all viable buildings?? israelites?? do you really expect to be taken seriously?

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1643195' date='Jan 10 2009, 10.03']All I can say to that is that this kind of open racism is rare sight indeed. Yours is a disgusting mindset.[/quote]

that may be so, but lyreiania's comments have a ring of truth to them. the people of israel are surrounded by arab muslim states and organizations hell-bent on the utter annihilation of israel. even the so-called 'moderate' arabic countries like egypt and jordan which are now on good terms with israel, only became 'moderate' after they got their arses caned in multiple wars.

unfortunately, terrorist groups like hamas use women, children, hospitals and schools to do their dirty work. this is hardly israel's fault.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='arya_underfoot' post='1643343' date='Jan 9 2009, 19.45']all viable buildings?? israelites?? do you really expect to be taken seriously?[/quote]

Get with the times. Israelites is now the preferred nomenclature. Pax has spoken. ;)

[Tsoert]

[quote name='Lyreiania' post='1643035' date='Jan 9 2009, 20.56']Lyana you seem upset that I dont have sympathy for the dying. Why should I, when they seem to rush towards their death with open arms, embracing the idea of jihad? It would be like pitying a child for getting a toy he so very much desired.

Dont believe me? OK. Watch these YouTube links. See Palestinean children joyously singing about the joys of being a little suicide bomber. So, NO, I have NO sympathy when they get exactly what they want. I have outrage. I have anger that a people would abuse and misuse their own children so.[/quote]

Because obviously brain washed children deserve to die right? Children who have had misguided views drilled into them by fanatical killers deserve to be put down? Are these children to be treated like dogs then? Those runts that are the offspring of those with weak genes, or in this case muderous fanaticism, deserve to be shot like animals in case they grow up to be fanatics too?

I'm sorry, I don't know you but I'm afraid that anyone who has no sympathy for children dying is a dick, plain and simple.

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='arya_underfoot' post='1643343' date='Jan 10 2009, 13.45']that may be so, but lyreiania's comments have a ring of truth to them. the people of israel are surrounded by arab muslim states and organizations hell-bent on the utter annihilation of israel. even the so-called 'moderate' arabic countries like egypt and jordan which are now on good terms with israel, only became 'moderate' after they got their arses caned in multiple wars.[/quote]

You forgot to mention that "poor little Israel" has the fourth most powerful military on the planet, has a nuclear weapons monopoly in the region, and is backed to the hilt by the world's only superpower (which prevents the UN from sorting out the mess). The Palestinians have ...

I suppose the defenders of Israel on this would be happy if Britain during the Troubles had sealed off Northern Ireland and carpet bombed the Republic in response to IRA attacks.

[Tsoert]

[quote name='Roose Bolton's Pet Leech' post='1643366' date='Jan 10 2009, 01.16']You forgot to mention that "poor little Israel" has the fourth most powerful military on the planet, has a nuclear weapons monopoly in the region, and is backed to the hilt by the world's only superpower (which prevents the UN from sorting out the mess). The Palestinians have ...

I suppose the defenders of Israel on this would be happy if Britain during the Troubles had sealed off Northern Ireland and carpet bombed the Republic in response to IRA attacks.[/quote]

I'm glad they didn't. The IRA were a wonderful help to stimulate regeneration of Manchester's old shitty town centre.

I'm actually a little confused as to how they sorted out the whole IRA/Sinn Fein malarky. Did someone just have some bright idea like "lets just sit down and have a chat eh?"?

[Werthead]

[quote name='arya_underfoot' post='1643343' date='Jan 10 2009, 00.45']that may be so, but lyreiania's comments have a ring of truth to them. the people of israel are surrounded by arab muslim states and organizations hell-bent on the utter annihilation of israel. even the so-called 'moderate' arabic countries like egypt and jordan which are now on good terms with israel, only became 'moderate' after they got their arses caned in multiple wars.[/quote]

This is somewhat hyperbolic. Exactly none of Israel's neighbours are hell-bent on the utter annihilation of Israel, although I doubt Syria and numerous elements in Lebanon would shed a tear if Israel vanished off the map tomorrow. The only nation that can be said to fit that description is Iran, and at the moment they are bottled in on two sides by nations aligned with the USA (okay, sort of) and lack the ability to carry out direct offensive action against Israel without taking action that would result in their own destruction.

The image of Israel standing on the brink of utter destruction and fighting on against all the odds is a stirring one, but has not been accurate for a good thirty years.

[quote]unfortunately, terrorist groups like hamas use women, children, hospitals and schools to do their dirty work. this is hardly israel's fault.[/quote]

Whilst this may be true, Israel doesn't [i]have[/i] to flatten the targets with high explosives. They choose to do so in the full knowledge that civilians will be killed, but banking that doing so will prevent [i]their[/i] civilians from being killed on another occasion. This is a no-win situation for either side, as you can say that Israel are in the wrong for doing that (even if they feel they have no choice and their own civilians are being killed) and Hamas are in the wrong for doing something they [i]know[/i] will result in their own civilians being killed later on, and you can say that Israel is in the right for taking whatever measures necessary to protect its people and Hamas has no choice but to use those buildings as their bases given the size and urbanisation of the area.

In the meantime, arguing these points never gets anyone anywhere.

[Werthead]

[quote]I'm actually a little confused as to how they sorted out the whole IRA/Sinn Fein malarky. Did someone just have some bright idea like "lets just sit down and have a chat eh?"?[/quote]

There was a lot of semantic hand-waving going-on, basically recognising that Sinn Feinn was a legitimate political party in its own right rather than simply the negotiating arm of the IRA. By separating the two out, and then the IRA declaring a ceasefire, the British government was able to declare it was talking to the Republican movement without actually talking to terrorists and Sinn Feinn was able to claim it was talking to the British government without actually surrendering anything. Face was saved on both sides and discussions were able to proceed.

A similar approach to the Israeli/Palestinian situation is possible, and Arafat and Rabin did something vaguely similar back in the day (with the PLO recognising Israel and Israel recognising the PLO as a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people they could negotiate with).

Unfortunately, at present the situation is complicated by the lack of clear peace-brokers on either side and the total lack of interest by Hamas in taking the steps necessary to achieve a lasting peace.

[Annelise]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1643227' date='Jan 9 2009, 18.03']All I can say to that is that this kind of open racism is rare sight indeed. Yours is a disgusting mindset.[/quote]

I think the reason this conflict endures is because there are understandable reasons for this mindset to perpetuate, on both sides. I have to think that when you're living it, it's much harder to turn the other cheek. I can see why such hatred exists on both sides, I really can. I'm sure I've said it before at some point; the tragedy is the dehumanization of the other side. That's what enables this sort of extended conflict, IMHO.

[Galactus]

[quote]Calling it a 'concentration' camp has some rather nasty connotations for Israelis and Jews in general, funnily enough. Semantically the phrase is not inaccurate (as it's a camp which simply 'concentrates' certain people into one certain area) but with all the baggage attached to the phrase, you're not going to convince anyone by saying you're just using the word in its technically-correct form.[/quote]

The definition usually used for "Concentration Camp" btw. is somethinga long the lines of "A camp designed to, in times of war or conflict, confine a certain segment of a civilian population." Concentration camps are rarely particularly nice, but the spectrum is huge. Most countries in involved in modern wars has made use of them. (they're a relatively recent invention, 19th century, mainly because that kind of mass-scale confinement simply wasn't possible before that)

[gryphon strike]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1642705' date='Jan 10 2009, 03.34']There's only one non-Israeli land border with Gaza and that country (Egypt) doesn't want Gazans in there either, so they keep it more or less closed to everyone but casualties. That leaves the sea and I'm wondering whose gonna pick them up on their boats and where are they gonna take them? There's not a country in the region that wants to absorb a bunch of refugees or is really willing to. So where exactly are they gonna go?[/quote]
Not to mention it would be a bunch of refugees with a large number of fanatical terrorists, Lebanon was a shining beacon in the middle east and the fighting caused by Palestinians has turned it into a largely unstable state.
Maybe caused is the wrong term I am no expert on the middle east, but there is still no way I want that many people who are terrorists into my country. If they could make a clear seperation of refugee and terrorist well thats different, especially if it were just temporary.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1643376' date='Jan 9 2009, 20.30']Unfortunately, at present the situation is complicated by the lack of clear peace-brokers on either side and the total lack of interest by Hamas in taking the steps necessary to achieve a lasting peace.[/quote]

It's not like Israel has shown any interest in taking those steps either.

Both sides are just perpetuating this conflict.

[quote]I think the reason this conflict endures is because there are understandable reasons for this mindset to perpetuate, on both sides. I have to think that when you're living it, it's much harder to turn the other cheek. I can see why such hatred exists on both sides, I really can. I'm sure I've said it before at some point; the tragedy is the dehumanization of the other side. That's what enables this sort of extended conflict, IMHO.[/quote]

And the current conflict is only making things worse for the future.

[url="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2009/01/08/1231004199877.html"]http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2009/01/...1004199877.html[/url]
[quote]Abdel Minaim Hasan, 37, knelt, weeping, next to the body of his eldest daughter, Lina, 11, who was wrapped in a Hamas flag. "From now on, I am Hamas!" he cried. "I choose resistance!" He cursed other Arab nations for ignoring the plight of the Gazans.[/quote]

Strangely, bombing the shit out of people isn't making peace happen.

[TheKassi]

[quote name='CelticBrennus' post='1643318' date='Jan 9 2009, 16.25']From what I recall reading some of them were, and some were hiding in air conditioned bunkers and destroying tanks in ambushes. IIRC, the first tank got something like 10 feet inside Lebanon before it was destroyed by a mine.[/quote]

Have you gone crazy? There wouldn't be tanks involved man. Israel would simply rain fire from the sky in the form of bombs and heavy artillery until there was nothing left in this tiny little blot of land smaller then many World War Two battlefields. It would be less expensive then mobilizing armored columns and infantry. I do not mean less costly in lives. I mean turning Gaza into a smoking ruin would be the cheapest method of dealing with the threat.

You shouldn't let your bias cloud your interpretation of tactical probabilities.

[quote]What, you going to whine about not getting a fair fight according to the rules of war or something?

You dont take civilians out of the equation - they are there, and like in every war ever fought, and that ever will be fought there are civilians. And dealing with the consequences of killing civilians are simply part of the equation.

Basically, either Israel blinked, or Hizbollah is simply too strong for them to defeat. Which one do you prefer?[/quote]

You might find this shocking, but I am not looking to put a PR spin on the event. This topic is merely one of academic interest for me. The simple fact however is that Israel's opposition has very little to do with Israel's choices. Israel went in on the ground for one reason and one reason only. They wished to minimize the casualties of noncombatants.

Well it turned out that the ground offensive was going to be as much of a PR disaster as carpet bombing would have been, only without the benefit of keeping your fighting men out of harms way. Really shouldn't have been a shocking revelation, but Israel has always been easy to goad.

Hizbollah's strategy worked perfectly. They managed to bait Israel just enough to come in and create some new ruins, drawing sympathy from around the word, without ticking them off so bad they just scorch the earth with no regard for civilian casualties.

You however presented this as some sort of military confrontation. You listed casualty statistics, argued that the Israelis couldn't beat them. Argued that they had bragging rights.

This wasn't a military confrontation. Hizbollah managed to provoke a fight they couldn't hope to win, and hide behind some woman and children. They sacrificed the lives of the noncombatants they should be protecting in order to damage Israel's credibility on the world stage.

This was a political stunt that cost a lot of innocent people their lives. It won't even be remembered by anyone who hasn't already decided where they stand on this issue in six months or so. It will not change minds. Hezbollah has accepted the responsibility of defending these people, and facilitating prosperity. Instead they got a bunch of them slaughtered while they huddled in terror. All for the sake of a few days of front page news.

Thats really not something to brag about in my book. Both sides are really giving a lot of justification for abject scorn.