[BOOK SPOILERS] GRRM's Blog Post about Episode 9, Season 2

[Spring Bass]

GRRM had an interesting comment in his most recent blog post at "Not a Blog" about the first draft of episode 9, Season 2 for the show:

-- writing the first draft of my script for episode nine of season two of the HBO series GAME OF THRONES, "Blackwater," and damn, but this one is a bitch of an adaptation, the original author made the damn battle way too big and too expensive,

I wonder what this means for the actual battle when it's shown. Will they do a Rome-style situation, where we get brief glimpses in between what Sansa and Tyrion are doing? I'll admit that I was hoping for a cool medievalesque river battle, but that's not practical for a television show.

[Anomandaris86]

GRRM in his blog today confirmed that the Battle of the Blackwater (the one he's writing) is episode 9.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/219080.html

Now, I could possibly see two episodes of story after that one, but not three. So I think it's fair to say that season 2 will only have ten episodes.

And I'm pissed off about this. One of two things have to happen:

1) They cut out parts of the story, unlike season 1 which mostly kept everything intact (though rushed).

2) They rush through events even faster than they did in season 1.

I think both of these are bad for obvious reasons, and it ensures that this show won't get the adaptation that it deserves. And it's bullshit, since the show has already established a decent viewership, which seems to be steadily increasing. Making season 1 10 episodes makes sense since they didn't know how the show would do, if it would flop or not, and if it did turn out to be a flop, they would have spent a little less. But now Thrones has established a steady viewership which seems to be growing, so they don't have that excuse now. And for fuck's sake, 12/13 episodes is the standard for EVERY OTHER HBO drama. And yet they can't manage to do that for a show that actually NEEDS those extra hours as opposed to other shows which waste a lot of the viewers' time? (yes I've seen my share) Sorry, but this is just bullshit.

[Anomandaris86]

Looks like we both tried to create a new thread at the same time.

[So1ar]

i agree that 10 episodes for season 2 is bullshit. the only reasonable excuse i could except is that they can't afford to do more than 10 episodes. but if they can afford it and they still choose to do 10 episodes, tyrion needs to slap someone in the face.

when i sit and think about all the events that happen in a clash of kings i have no idea how they will be able to fit that in 10 episodes, not to mention having Ros suck some more screen time.

[Abaddon]

So I think it's fair to say that season 2 will only have ten episodes.

We've known about this for quite some time now. The explanation given is that 12 episodes would involve too much writing for D&D and would require them to bring in more writers, and they like the way they have it arranged now. I think there's probably some truth to that but I'd have to guess there are other factors as well.

In any case, I would love to see 12 episodes like everyone else with a brain, but it's not going to happen. It will be really interesting to see what happens with A Storm of Swords assuming we get a 3rd season.

[Padraig]

At least for S2, while some new characters are introduced, there is less sexposition required. So they can focus more on the story.

No sign that they are going to cut any of the main storylines. A lot of characters are prominent in S1 in order to pave a way to having a bigger role in S2. So they'll trim storylines but not cut.

[Hyper]

Why is everyone surprised that season 2 is 10 episodes? We've KNOWN this for a while now - ever since the season 2 renewal was announced.

And I've said it elsewhere - Adapting ACOK in 10 episodes will be EASIER than adapting AGOT into 10 episodes. The world building is pretty much done, the major characters are introduced, and ACOK does provide ample opportunity to prune plot elements.

Note all the foreshadowing for early season 2 events that the showrunners already have put in place (Theon's issues, Renly's kingly ambitions) that will allow season 2 to start at faster pace.

And for fuck's sake, 12/13 episodes is the standard for EVERY OTHER HBO drama. And yet they can't manage to do that for a show that actually NEEDS those extra hours as opposed to other shows which waste a lot of the viewers' time? (yes I've seen my share) Sorry, but this is just bullshit.

It's not bullshit. It is reality. GOT is a high budget show - certainly more than True Blood, Treme, and almost every other HBO production - and more episodes cost money. And don't expect the # of episodes per season to change during the run of the show. (The Sopranos longer season 6 was a very special case) You need to adjust your expectations and expect that every season will be 10 episodes. If we get more? Great... But don't expect it.

[Werthead]

Yup, HBO seem to have developed a process whereby they want to have a number of set shows airing every year with set numbers of episodes with set budgets. The free 'n' easy, easily-adjusted days of The Wire and The Sopranos are behind us and this is now how HBO want to roll.

However, I must admit to being a little surprised. We know ASoS is being split in two, and ASoS does not require 20 episodes. So my thought was that they may roll back the Blackwater to be the end-of-season cliffhanger (with us not knowing Tyrion's fate etc), then integrating the final few chapters of ACoK into the first episode of ASoS. It does seem that Season 2 is going to be very, very tight whilst Seasons 3 and 4 actually have some extra episodes to play around with. Dropping at least one episode of ACoK events to the start of Season 3 would free up much-needed space in Season 2 whilst still giving them a big climax to end the season on.

The only reason I can think of for not doing that is that they are going to use some of that extra time to bring in AFFC and ADWD events into Seasons 3-4 and reduce the spread of those two books to two seasons rather than the three it looks like they'll have to be at the moment, and that's going to be so tight they can't extend any ACoK events into Season 3.

[The Anti-Targ]

I'll need to do a re-read of aCoK, but I think Dany's story line can do with a helluva lot of trimming. She's mostly wandering around Essos firguring out how to raise her dragons and having the occasional foreshadowing experience.

At least with CGI dragons there's no annoying hair/fur to try to get to look realistic, so the dragons should get more screentime than the direwolves. :-(

[Hyper]

However, I must admit to being a little surprised. We know ASoS is being split in two, and ASoS does not require 20 episodes.

No, we know NO such thing. GRRM has expressed an opinion that perhaps book 3 needs to be spread over two seasons, but he does not run or control the show. We'll see what happens. If the seasons stay at 10 episode length, I would not be surprised to see some book 3 events be moved to season 4. But they might also decide to squeeze all of book 3 into season 3. It could happen. We just don't know.

[Werthead]

No, we know NO such thing. GRRM has expressed an opinion that perhaps book 3 needs to be spread over two seasons, but he does not run or control the show. We'll see what happens. If the seasons stay at 10 episode length, I would not be surprised to see some book 3 events be moved to season 4. But they might also decide to squeeze all of book 3 into season 3. It could happen. We just don't know.

HBO have apparently ruled out any more than 10 episodes per season.

D&D have said that if they can't have more than 10 episodes per season, ASoS will need to be two seasons long.

Ergo, unless there is a substantial shift by HBO on both this decision and their overall desire to have a controlled, predictable budget every year, Book 3 will have to be two seasons.

[Hyper]

You are still jumping to conclusion based on two facts which are not certain. Likely, yes, but not certain. It is NOT ;) known. Likely != certain.

It is also possible that they after season 2 ditch the whole "1 book = 1 season (split or not)" - and instead let events play out as well as they can adapt them. Perhaps they can look at the timelines and see if other season break points make more sense for their adaptation.

[Padraig]

I'll need to do a re-read of aCoK, but I think Dany's story line can do with a helluva lot of trimming. She's mostly wandering around Essos firguring out how to raise her dragons and having the occasional foreshadowing experience.

The problem is if you trim Dany's storyline, she will be left with a small presence in S2. That might dissappoint people. You can trim Arya's storyline and still be left with a lot of material but they'll have to be careful with Dany and Jon. At the end of aGoT they are 2 of the main heroes. Not sure you can ignore them then.

[tarantella]

Why would they pin themselves down to ACOK in ten episodes and ASOS in twenty? The pacing's going to suffer unless they shift some of the events in the second and third books around and maybe have some overlap between seasons.

[DireLlama]

You are still jumping to conclusion based on two facts which are not certain. Likely, yes, but not certain. It is NOT ;) known. Likely != certain.

It is also possible that they after season 2 ditch the whole "1 book = 1 season (split or not)" - and instead let events play out as well as they can adapt them. Perhaps they can look at the timelines and see if other season break points make more sense for their adaptation.

Nothing is certain, dear boy!

He's got pretty good evidence for those conclusions. From what I can tell, D&D are the ones who decide upon the story (I remember the renewal for Season 2 mentioned the executives asking them to start thinking up storylines - which is an easy job really, just pick up aCoK...), and since they're the ones who have said that aSoS would cover two seasons if they stick to ten episodes, then that's pretty solid to me. Of course they could change their minds later on.

Now, I think the best way to do it would be to finish Season 3 with the Red Wedding, which would put them roughly two thirds of the way through aSoS. Then the first half or so of Season 4 could cover the end of aSoS and then the second half starts on the aFfC/aDwD mashup. There's got to be a decent moment of awesome somewhere near the start of those books to end a season on. I hope, anyway!

That seems to be supported by D&D from that link Werthead posted, where they said that their season 3 would end on a "particuarly heartless cliffhanger". Probably the Red Wedding + the Hound axe-ing Arya...

[Anomandaris86]

the only reasonable excuse i could except is that they can't afford to do more than 10 episodes.

The thing is though, extra money that they spend on extra episodes will in turn be returned to them in the form of two more weeks of subscritpions, more ratings, more lincensing, etc... No one is going to say "I'm only willing to watch 10, 12 is too much for me." If they're into it they'll watch however many episodes HBO throws at them.

The only thing that matters in this instance is the cost per episode.

The explanation given is that 12 episodes would involve too much writing for D&D and would require them to bring in more writers, and they like the way they have it arranged now.

But at the expense of not giving the adaptation the time it deserves? That's a bad justification. Besides, Episode 4 of season 1 was written by someone else. I'm sure they could figure something out for 2 extra episodes.

At least for S2, while some new characters are introduced, there is less sexposition required. So they can focus more on the story.

Yes and no. A Clash of Kings is where the story really branches out into a lot of different directions. The plot and setting of A Game of Thrones is simple in comparison. (It's not called the War of the Five Kings for nothing.) Also, in the books GRRM is constantly introducing new backstory and lore to go along with the current plot; I'd be surprised if the show isn't the same way.

Why is everyone surprised that season 2 is 10 episodes? We've KNOWN this for a while now

No we haven't. They've said it's probably what would happen, but there have been no confirmations. Actually you could say it still hasn't been confirmed, but GRRM calling the Blackwater Episode 9 is pretty much a confirmation, since there's really no way there could be three episodes after that.

And I've said it elsewhere - Adapting ACOK in 10 episodes will be EASIER than adapting AGOT into 10 episodes.

No, it will be harder because of the sheer increase in complexity and scope of the plot.

The world building is pretty much done,

They've only scratched the surface with that.

the major characters are introduced,

There are LOTS of major characters that they'll need to introduce in season 2.

Roose Bolton

Edmure Tully

the Blackfish

Hoster Tully

Stannis

Melisandre

Davos

everyone else on Dragonstone (can't remember names)

Brienne

Mace Tyrell

Margaery Tyrell

all the Greyjoys except Theon

the ironmen that accompany Theon

the Bolton bastard

the Frey wards at Winterfell

the Reeds

the Ranger that Jon ends up killing

Dolorous Edd

Ygritte

that wildling leader that Jon ends up joining with

Craster

Gilly

Chataya

Podrick Payne

Vargo Hoat

Rorge and Biter

Jacqen Hagar

new characters with Dany's storyline (can't remember names)

Some of those could be introduced in season 1, but regardless that's almost on the level of season 1 in regards to characters needing to be established. And of course, most of those established characters continue their arcs as well.

and ACOK does provide ample opportunity to prune plot elements.

Sure, if you don't want to give the book the adaptation it deserves.

GOT is a high budget show - certainly more than True Blood, Treme, and almost every other HBO production - and more episodes cost money.

See above.

(The Sopranos longer season 6 was a very special case)

The Wire:

Season 1 - 12 episodes

Season 2 - 12 episodes

Season 3 - 12 episodes

Season 4 - 13 episodes

Season 5 - 10 episodes

Rome:

Season 1 - 12 episodes

Season 2 - 10 episodes

Six Feet Under:

Season 1 - 13 episodes

Season 2 - 13 episodes

Season 3 - 13 episodes

Season 4 - 12 episodes

Season 5 - 12 episodes

Sex and the City:

Season 1 - 12 episodes

Season 2 - 18 episodes

Season 3 - 18 episodes

Season 4 - 18 episodes

Season 5 - 8 episodes

Season 6 - 20 episodes

Oz:

Season 1 - 8 episodes

Season 2 - 8 episodes

Season 3 - 8 episodes

Season 4 - 16 episodes

Season 5 - 8 episodes

Season 6 - 8 episodes

HBO has always had a history of having series with flexible episodes per season. As well as pretty much every other network and I could list examples from those as well. Because again, if viewers are hooked on a show, the only thing that matters is the cost per episode.

Why would they pin themselves down to ACOK in ten episodes and ASOS in twenty? The pacing's going to suffer unless they shift some of the events in the second and third books around and maybe have some overlap between seasons.

Exactly. The way they have it now season 2 will move at lightning speed and not give enough time for everything, and seasons 3 and 4 will move at a plodding pace and have lots of fluff.

If D&D weren't willing to tailor each season to the specific needs of each book then perhaps they never should have undertaken this project in the first place.

[Uruk-hai]

The thing is though, extra money that they spend on extra episodes will in turn be returned to them in the form of two more weeks of subscritpions, more ratings, more lincensing, etc... No one is going to say "I'm only willing to watch 10, 12 is too much for me." If they're into it they'll watch however many episodes HBO throws at them.

If D&D weren't willing to tailor each season to the specific needs of each book then perhaps they never should have undertaken this project in the first place.

I'm not sure I understand your first point. We don't pay our subscription fees per episode; we pay per month and some are locked in for a year(s) depending on their contract with their provider. I guess some folks may cancel HBO as soon as the last episode of each season is broadcast (& will re-up when the next starts) but most people are too lazy, want HBO anyway, and/or are locked into the aforementioned contracts.

As to point #2, where is it written in stone that the TV show has to go book-per-season? God knows, GRRM has enough cliffhangers scattered throughout the books if that is the driving force. Why not just let the story unfold at its own pace instead of rigidly confining itself to one book per season?

[The hairy bear]

I'm in the camp "adapting ACOK in 10 episodes is easier that adapting AGOT in 10 episodes".

AGOT is 674 pages long and ACOK 728. That means that to keep the ratio, if AGOT uses 10 episodes ACOK would be 10 episodes and an eight of another. It's not that big a difference.

But in terms of chapters, there's 73 in AGOT and 70 in ACOK. The longest chapters in ACOK suggest a slower pace, more internal thoughts and descrptions, and less change of locations.

In the second season all the protagonists will already be introduced. The first episode of the first season was devoted almost exclusively to introduce the main players. Now we can go straight to the action. King's Landing and Winterfell will be familiar and Pyke will be seen through the eyes of Theon. Only Dragonstone will need an introduction, and that is a small part of the story (Davos only has three chapters in the whole book).

While AGOTs storylines are divided among a large number of locations, ACOK is much more focused. Out of the 70 chapters of the book, 24 take place in KL (34%) and 10 in Winterfell (14%). And regardless of the number of chapters, many characters have much less to do in ACOK. The first halfs of Dany's and Jon's storylines have very little meat in terms of a tv adaptation, Sansa's eight chapters will have to be greatly reduced since she doesn't have anyone to confide in KL and we won't be privy to her inner thoughts, etc.

[Padraig]

From what I can tell, D&D are the ones who decide upon the story (I remember the renewal for Season 2 mentioned the executives asking them to start thinking up storylines - which is an easy job really, just pick up aCoK...), and since they're the ones who have said that aSoS would cover two seasons if they stick to ten episodes, then that's pretty solid to me.

I'd be stunned if aSoS is split into two seasons of 10. I don't think that's what D&D meant. Two seasons of 8 is possible. Or , more likely, as others have said, 10 episodes up to the RW and then they could move some of aFfC and aDwD into S4. If you look at the climax of aSoS, 2 of the last chapters can easily be delayed till the very last episode of S4 (after some aFfC/aDwD chapters). Namely the chapters that show Lysa's death and unCat. That would still ensure that the season ends with a bang.

The only thing that matters in this instance is the cost per episode.

And we know the cost per episode is very expensive. While GoT has done well, its not a monster hit. Nothing has happened for HBO to say lets throw even more money at it.

If D&D weren't willing to tailor each season to the specific needs of each book then perhaps they never should have undertaken this project in the first place.

Maybe they shouldn't have then? I think most people will accept that compromises have to be made though. Remember, its not HBO that are saying 1 book per season. They are saying we are willing to make a 10 episode season. Carve out something accordingly. D&D are free to cover only 3/4 of the book if they wish (as long as it is still entertaining of course). But it seems that D&D think they can cover the book in 10 episodes.

I do think its harder to introduce a world in TV than in a book. So in S1, D&D have had go out of their way to to explain the world. While more exposition is required in S2, the foundations should be in place now. So it should be a lot less time-consuming.

There are LOTS of major characters that they'll need to introduce in season 2.

You can definitely reduce that list. Do you need all the Greyjoys and Ironborn? Do you know Chataya? Do you need Rorge and Biter? (One could do fine). The Frey wards? Mace Tyrell in S2? Even Podrick Payne!

I'm sure some of those will appear but you could avoid them.

The first halfs of Dany's and Jon's storylines have very little meat in terms of a tv adaptation, Sansa's eight chapters will have to be greatly reduced since she doesn't have anyone to confide in KL and we won't be privy to her inner thoughts, etc.

I've always seen Dany and Jon's storylines as a problem. Not an advantage. They don't want the audience to forget about them. And while Sansa's chapters can be toned down, they will easily be replaced by adding scenes involving Cersei I imagine. There are a few characters who have featured in S1 that they could add material for in S2.

[Xenophon]

It is also possible that they after season 2 ditch the whole "1 book = 1 season (split or not)" - and instead let events play out as well as they can adapt them. Perhaps they can look at the timelines and see if other season break points make more sense for their adaptation.

Yeah, at some point they're going to have to break from the 1 book = 1 season model. I can't see them doing AFFC/ADWD as separate seasons, if they get that far.